Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Not going to sweat it.  They are who they are.  We'll know eventually I guess.  Blessings brother.

To you as well!

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Sure, I'll answer.

You said that Ezekiel and Isaiah saw HIM. Let's look at the scriptures:

Ezekiel saw Him

Ezekiel 10:1 - And I looked, and there in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubim, there appeared something like a sapphire stone, having the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

Ezekiel 1:26-28 - And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

Isaiah saw Him.

Isaiah 6:1-5 - 

 In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. ² Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. ³ And one called out to another and said,

“Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,
The ^[a]whole earth is full of His glory.”

⁴ And the ^[b]foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the ^[c]temple was filling with smoke. ⁵ Then I said,

“Woe is me, for I am ruined!

Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.”

Isaiah 9:6-7 - For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

I don't believe that God the Father is the One who is sitting upon the throne of David. It is Jesus who will be sitting on the throne of David. 

John, in Rev 4:2, sees A Throne.....ONE THRONE....and describes the ONE on the throne.

Then, in Rev 4:4, he then says that there are 24 thrones.. These 24 thrones encompass the throne Jesus sits on. In other words, the area or platform on which the thrones sit, are all part of the THRONE OF GOD.

God revealed to Daniel that THRONES would be in place near His throne. The whole heavenly court is present when God judges the antichrist.

 Daniel 7:9-11 - I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; a fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.. 

Look at the description of God the Father and His THRONE......His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; a fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him

It is not anything like the scene John is describing in Rev 4:3>

 

John saw the Glory of the Risen Lord, as scripture plainly paints.

You WANT TO SEE God the Father there, but John is describing Jesus, on HIS THRONE.

You keep saying....."preconceived theories block what the scriptures are actually saying"......

Well, something we finally agree on. How about you take yours off and see what scripture is actually saying!

"Adonai" is only a proper name of "God," so says Strong's. It is the word used in the Isaiah 6 text. How could one possibly know who this is referring to? The Trinity is somewhat hidden in the Old. In Ezekiel it was Jahovah or YHWH. In Isaiah 64, we read "But now, O LORD, thou art our father;"  And "Lord" here is YHWH. Therefore "Lord" can refer to our Father God. 

In Zech 2 we find an interesting two verses:

¹0 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I  come, and I ] will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. 

(Both "Lord" here is YHWH.  Of course it is the second person of the Godhead who comes to dwell)

¹¹ And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

(Here Lord in both cases is YHWH. We see then YHWH as God the Father SENDS YHWH to dwell with them.)

It is very difficult then to tell which member of the Godhead is being seen in either Ezekiel or Isaiah.

There are over a dozen verses in the bible that tell us Jesus would go to be at the right hand of the Father. I will show a few:

Matthew 26:64

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

Mark 16:19

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 

Mark 16:19

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 

Acts 2:33

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

Acts 2:34

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

 

Acts 7:56

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

 

Romans 8:34

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

Ephesians 1:20

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

 

Colossians 3:1

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

 

Hebrews 1:3

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

 

It just makes sense to me that Jesus went right back to where He was during the Old Testament times. Only then He was spirit, not flesh.  Note carefully in each of these verses is the very strong hint that it is God the Father on the throne and the SON of God at His right hand. Therefore it seems very likely to me that each instance in the Old where one is seated on the throne, it is the Father, not the second person of the Godhead.

 

As for appearance:  One might see Him more clearly than another. One might be closer than another. I don't think we can tell much from descriptions. 

 

I agree with you on the Daniel scripture: I have always thought that the Ancient of Days was God our Father.

 

Let's not forget that we got here because of John seeing someone on the throne in Rev. 4.  My question has always been, why did John not see exactly what Stephen saw: God the Father and Jesus at His right hand? With all the verses that tell us that is where He went to be, just common sense should tell us John SHOULD have seen Him there. Yet, John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father as Stephen did.

 

When Jesus was teaching me, He asked me: "why did John not see Me at the right hand of the Father? There are over a dozen verses saying that is where I should have been. Stephen saw Me there?"  I could not at that time answer Him.  The point is, John certainly did NOT see two members of the Godhead as Stephen did. 

 

You can assume any reason, but Jesus taught me His reason: it was a vision of the past, and John was looking into the throne room while Jesus was still on the earth or under the earth.

 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

First off, no dead bodies are going to fly out of the Graves, the Spirit bodies will go to Heaven, they are raised mili-seconds before the living in Christ DIE putting off {shedding} their Flesh bodies which have corruption {Sin Flesh}. The Dead in Christ are raised incorruptible, meaning without flesh bodies tainted by SIN. We get our bodies in Heaven {that is the White Robes we receive.}

You are mistaken as usual. That is what "resurrection" is all about: DEAD bodies coming out of their graves. Jesus will bring the spirits of the dead in Christ with Him so they can join with their resurrection bodies.  Did you not read?

Matthew 27:  

⁵² And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

⁵³ And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

{{{ So what is Paul saying here ? Well he's saying the DOTL can not fall on those in Christ {in the Light} and YOU KNOW THIS {or are supposed to know this} so why are you worried about going through God's Wrath !! For they shall say {those in the DOTL, which we will not be in....HENCE....THEY....} Peace and Safety, then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION will come upon them......THEM....Thus Paul's point unto them, DON'T FEAR that you will be going through God's Wrath or the DOTL, you won't be here, you will be Raptured to Heaven. THEY SHALL NOT ESCAPE.....But you my brothers are CHILDREN OF THE LIGHT or of Jesus Christ, not children of the Darkness that THAT DAY {DOTL} should overtake you. }}}

What you are missing: Paul is showing us a paradigm: bringing two groups of people up for close display: Those living in the light of the Gospel (In Christ) and those living in the darkness. These two different groups are going to get two different results at the time of the rapture. Keep in mind, Paul is still talking about the rapture.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Notice "they" get sudden destruction, while "we" or "us" get salvation. But what does Paul mean here by "salvation?" He is talking about the rapture: He means we or us will get raptured or caught up while "they" get left behind and caught in the sudden destruction.  Paul is talking about these two different groups at the same moment of time!  While those in Christ get raptured, those in darkness get left behind.  Notice verse 10: "we should live together with Him." In chapter 4, it was "so shall we ever be with the Lord." HOW Paul? HOW do we get to "live together with Him?" Of course by way of the rapture: these two chapters are about the rapture. "They" cannot escape because they are left behind. The sudden destruction will be world wide. You won't believe it, but it will be the great earthquake at the 6th seal that STARTS the Day of the Lord. It will be a great earthquake CAUSED by God raised up dead bodies around the world - as Matthew 27 states: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened..."

However, since you don't believe the dead and decayed bodies of the dead in Christ will rise, why bother? 

The rapture EVENT will start with the dead in Christ rising; that is their DEAD BODIES coming together and raising from their graves. But that is only the start: a moment later those alive and in Christ will rise and TOGETHER (those who were dead WITH those who are alive) we all rise up to meet Jesus in the air. 

Notice verse 9: Paul is telling us that this sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath.  He had just mentioned that the Day of the Lord will come at the same time as the rapture: the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY and the DAY will begin with this sudden destruction. 

Do you imagine some space of TIME between the dead raising and those who are alive raising?

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

{{{ Paul is saying, we are not appointed to Wrath, we are not going to be here during the 70th week. }}}

Let's stick to the context, shall we? Paul is talking about the RAPTURE, not the 70th week!

The "wrath" IN CONTEXT is the sudden destruction those left behind will face at the same moment we who are alive are caught up.

The wrath in context is also the start of the Day of the Lord. 

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The ONE MILISECOND you are referencing is nowhere in the verbiage brother. THEY...THEM....mean those no Raptured will think they have PEACE but then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION will come upon them, but you Thessalonians can not go through that Wrath !! That is all it meas, its not THE RAPTURE then a mili-second later Wrath. Where do you even get this kind of thinking from brother ? Your sense/PERCEPTION of timing is just not there whilst reading the KJV, have you ever tried reading another version ? The truth is some people just can't get the KJV in its odd writing form of Olde English.

How long to YOU think it will be between the dead in Christ rising and those who are alive rising? It is a moot question because you don't believe the dead in Christ rise. I guess in your mind the rapture event is just for the living. Go figure!

Here is what is really going to happen: God will CERTAINLY raise the bodies of the dead in Christ - yes, even the bodies that have long since turned to dust. But when the atoms of those bodies come together to form the body that was, that is going to cause the earth to quake. Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened. Earthquake follow resurrections! 

Of course then when God raises the dead in Christ from around the world, it is going to cause a worldwide earthquake. That earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction.  Sudden because there will be NO WARNING. 

Since it will all happen in a very short period of time, their "peace and safety" is the same time as the rapture. The rapture is coming at a time when the world is thinking "peace and safety."

Added later: What did Paul write?  "In a MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye..." Sorry, there will be very little time between the Dead in Christ rising and those who are alive rising. Only a MOMENT....

The Greek behind "moment" is the atom! At that time they thought the atom was the smallest possible division of matter. So "moment" would be the smallest division of time. Perhaps you need to rethink your timing on the rapture!

Edited May 31, 2019 by iamlamad

[OldCoot]

On 5/29/2019 at 6:57 PM, JoeCanada said:

Let's talk about the 24 elders.

They are dressed in white garments and have golden crowns on their heads.

These are from the "first fruits resurrection"....resurrected when Christ led a train of captives to heaven.

"They fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne saying...."(Rev 4:10)

While it is possible that those "first fruits" resurrected saints might be part of the 24 elders, it likely is not the case. Those resurrected saints of Matthew 27 that are comprised of the first fruits resurrection you are talking about were never considered  a "royal priesthood" in 1 Peter 2:9 that Peter calls the redeemed that make up the ekklesia that started at Shavuot 50 days after Yeshua's resurrection.   Royal Priesthood by definition is "kings" and "priests" that the 24 elders claim.  

Since there is evidence outside of Revelation that these elders specifically comprise the redeemed of the NT church age, there would have to also be support in scripture outside of Revelation to suggest the OT saints also get lumped into that group and comprise the 24 elders.

Also internally, those that become believers and are killed show up later in Revelation.  They are saints also, but there is no indication they then become part of the 24 elders. so while all are redeemed in the same way, not all are of the same group.

Also internally, the church is mentioned all thru the first 3 chapters of the book, then never mentioned again until the final salutation by John. it seems a little strange with all the things going on during that time, if the church was still on earth, it is never mentioned.  From the OT, Isaiah, King David, and others all support the idea that before the Day of the Lord begins, the righteous (both dead and living) are removed and are with the Lord.  

Edited May 31, 2019 by OldCoot
Spelling

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

While it is possible that those "first fruits" resurrected saints might be part of the 24 elders, it likely is not the case. Those resurrected saints of Matthew 27 that are comprised of the first fruits resurrection you are talking about were never considered  a "royal priesthood" in 1 Peter 2:9 that Peter calls the redeemed that make up the ekklesia that started at Shavuot 50 days after Yeshua's resurrection.   Royal Priesthood by definition is "kings" and "priests" that the 24 elders claim.  

Since there is evidence outside of Revelation that these elders specifically comprise the redeemed of the NT church age, there would have to also be support in scripture outside of Revelation to suggest the OT saints also get lumped into that group and comprise the 24 elders.

Also internally, those that become believers and are killed show up later in Revelation.  They are saints also, but there is no indication they then become part of the 24 elders. so while all are redeemed in the same way, not all are of the same group.

Also internally, the church is mentioned all thru the first 3 chapters of the book, then never mentioned again until the final salutation by John. it seems a little strange with all the things going on during that time, if the church was still on earth, it is never mentioned.  From the OT, Isaiah, King David, and others all support the idea that before the Day of the Lord begins, the righteous (both dead and living) are removed and are with the Lord.  

That's my view also. In addition, twenty-four is the biblical number for the 'Priesthood'. Some believe as I do twenty-four is a representation of 12 + 12, the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles (as in the New Jerusalem '12 gates' and twelve 'foundations'. A representation and inclusion of all in that dispensation or age.

As you mentioned, the church is mentioned 19 times in Revelation Chapters 1-3, and no mention of the church is made until the end of the Book. Christians which constitute the church, are not appointed the wrath of God, which is part of the reason for the tribulation. The Rapture (harpazo - snatching away) closely mirrors the traditional Jewish betrothal / wedding traditions. It makes no sense Christ would beat up His bride before the marriage. 

The Restrainer (Holy Spirit) which indwells each believer is before the Throne of God and no longer on earth. That also implies a 'catching away'. It's the age old pre, mid, end, Rapture debate. I don't believe it will be long before that age old debate is settled. Everyday that it is cloudy I wonder if today is the day 

[Revelation Man]

On 5/29/2019 at 3:46 PM, iamlamad said:

Jesus did! He went down into hell, stayed for three days and three nights, then RETURNED to the surface of the earth.

He went to Abraham's bosom, its hades/grave or the holding placing for the faithful Jewish Sants Spirits.

On 5/29/2019 at 3:13 PM, Last Daze said:

In the beginning was the Word.  Jesus, the man, was conceived by the Holy Spirit.  Keep trying.

Jesu told the Pharisees he was "I am that I am" and knew Abraham their father. Paul stated that Jesus led them through the desert, he was that "ROCK". 

On 5/29/2019 at 3:43 PM, iamlamad said:

How can someone who THINKS they know be so far from truth?

 

You think the Seals have been opened....I don't see that as worthy of discussion to be honest. But I have to point out to others the truth, I am called to preach the truth and that is what I will do, despite your protestasion. 

[Revelation Man]

On 5/29/2019 at 4:42 PM, The Light said:

Let me see if I am following you. Are you saying that chapters 4 and 5 give us the context and timing of the first seal? For once we can agree. We can see the Church in heaven in Revelation 5 . They were redeemed from the earth before any seals were opened. The Tribulation occurs during the 1st 5 seals. Jesus returns in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth in the 6th seal as confirmed by Matthew 24. Then the wrath of God, the day of the Lord begins.

No sir, he thinks the Seals were opened in 32 AD........... And that the 5th Seal is the Martyrs of the Church Age.

Matthew 24 doesn't correlate with Rev. cha. six, it doesn't match up like some people think, Matt. 24 is not a part of the 70th week/tribulation until vs. 15 on, the other verses are about the Church Age. Its easy to get that understanding, but an in depth exegesis of Matt. 24 shows otherwise. I see many people make this mistake, eve well now preachers/teachers. 

The verse you cited about Jesus' return is the Second Coming with the Church {us} who are gathered from one end of Heaven to the other. Its not the Rapture. That happens before verse 15.