Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

We`ve had a good discussion but anymore would just be going over old ground.

regards, Marilyn.

Ha! This thread is now 77 pages and NOTHING has been solved!

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, JohnD said:

If you are willing to go to the mat to defend your belief despite the evidence to the contrary... that's your business.

To a point, I will contend with such an one to hopefully show them the evidence to the contrary. 

But if they insist on refusing to believe a brick wall is solid and that they should not bang their head against it...

then I ignore them and bless them with a God bless you... bang away.

Have you really thought this thing out? Have you ever noticed that in verse 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED? (In Paul's argument, not in reality.)

Look at it in any and all translations. In verse 3b, He IS revealed, meaning some time previously he WAS revealed. the ONLY POSSIBLE explanation is that in verse 3a, the restraining force has been "taken out of the way." And anyone studying this verse would have to say, the only place in 3a where anything could be understood as being "taken out of the way" HAS TO BE in that Greek word, apostasia. In other words, on your side of this argument, it is a "falling away" (from what Paul does not tell us) that is the restrainer being taken out of the way. 

On my side of this discussion, it is the church as the restraining force being "taken out of the way."  If indeed it is a "falling away" from truth, that would be evil in and of itself. So you are saying that evil restrains evil. I don't buy it. It makes FAR more sense that GOOD restrains evil or GOD - working through the church  - restrains evil. In this case the restraining is preventing the man of sin to be revealed before his time. 

Some people think "taken out of the way" is not a good translation, and it should be "gone from the midst."  Either one works for me. I think the sudden departing of the church fits "gone from the midst" better than a gradual falling away. 

Then, there is another point to make about a falling away. It must be something VERY SIGNIFICANT: for in Paul's argument, people would say, "now THAT is what Paul was talking about!" If indeed Paul meant a falling away from truth - how would ANYONE Know that enough people had fallen away to meet the criteria of being THE falling away? In the life of the church, some have fallen away but more has come in. 

I ask you, is this beating one's head against a wall? I think not: it is properly understanding Paul's passage.

There is yet another point to be made: the THEME Of the passage is the gathering, not the falling away.  In the end, who is really banging their head against a wall? 

Did you not read what Strong's had to say about "apo" the first part of that Greek compound word? He defined it as a PART of a whole [group] REMOVED from the whole group and taken to a different location. My friend, this is EXACTLY what will happen at the rapture.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, JohnD said:

I am not falling into the trap of suppositional arguments.

If you are going to spiritualize this and literalize that in your interpretation of prophecy then it is a matter of debate between two opinions only.

Wormwood is it a literal star?

You say the seals are just what they say they are.

So it cannot be Chernobyl. Can it? 

Unless you are doing the spiritualize this and literalize that game.

The seals are sealing a document. That is not a difficult concept. But when a seal is opened, WORDS CAN BE READ and then that event written can take place. For the first seal opened, the church can legally take the gospel to the world. When the second seal is opened, then what is written there for that seal gives Satan the legal right to start wars to stop the advance of the gospel. 

¹⁰ And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

We all SHOULD know that if a real star collided with earth, earth would be no more. It is NOT a real star. Could it be an angel? Other "stars" seem to be. But could it be a nuclear bomb? A nuke makes an incredibly bright light, and John says burning as it were a lamp. 

All I am saying is, it could be a nuke and I believe it to be God's way of telling us nuclear war is coming. 

I try to take everything that is possible to take literal, as literal, but some things we cannot take literal: there is not going to be a real leapord beast with bears feet, etc.  In this case, there is not going to be a literal star. 

It is OK if you think this star is to represent something else.  Unless someone gets revelation knowledge from heaven, and verse like this can only be debate between people. John gives us no more information. 

Oh! Perhaps you are expecting a real star? Perhaps you are expecting a real leopard beast with the feet of a bear?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 3/26/2019 at 7:43 PM, Spock said:

Thanks William. 

How can you be so sure Jesus was talking about a rapture knowing that these guys don’t have a clue about such and he knows that?  

Exegesis 101....context.....who is your audience?  Jews who don’t know anything about rapture or church for that matter.

Jews of the time didn't know about a lot of stuff Jesus talked about. Remember Nicodemus being confounded? Remember Peter being upset? Matt. 16:23

But Jesus also knew that these things would be written and studied and dissected over time by billions of people, not just the Jews of His day.

Taking your outlook, the whole disclosure of Jesus to John of the Book of Revelation was utterly pointless. But it isn't to me.

[JohnD]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The seals are sealing a document. That is not a difficult concept. But when a seal is opened, WORDS CAN BE READ and then that event written can take place. For the first seal opened, the church can legally take the gospel to the world. When the second seal is opened, then what is written there for that seal gives Satan the legal right to start wars to stop the advance of the gospel. 

¹⁰ And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

We all SHOULD know that if a real star collided with earth, earth would be no more. It is NOT a real star. Could it be an angel? Other "stars" seem to be. But could it be a nuclear bomb? A nuke makes an incredibly bright light, and John says burning as it were a lamp. 

All I am saying is, it could be a nuke and I believe it to be God's way of telling us nuclear war is coming. 

I try to take everything that is possible to take literal, as literal, but some things we cannot take literal: there is not going to be a real leapord beast with bears feet, etc.  In this case, there is not going to be a literal star. 

It is OK if you think this star is to represent something else.  Unless someone gets revelation knowledge from heaven, and verse like this can only be debate between people. John gives us no more information. 

Oh! Perhaps you are expecting a real star? Perhaps you are expecting a real leopard beast with the feet of a bear?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The seals on a real document I can buy. Although I doubt any two people can agree on which document it actually is.

But things like wormwood and the lion and bear and leopard are subject to interpretation and that's why I don't trifle with these as I know when they are fulfilled they will be in ways we did not anticipate to validate the prophecies they were intended to validate at the time they are fulfilled.

But prophecies like the temple standing and the sacrifice being abated and giving a number of days you have to admit is far more tangible than the

subjective ones you use to pooh pooh the tangible.

And as I said, I grow weary with this conversation with one who will not be convinced they are buying into a subjective prophecy to try to

disprove a tangible prophecy.

Be well.

[JoeCanada]

On 3/27/2019 at 7:36 AM, iamlamad said:

I did not say Jesus is the rider. How on earth do you come up with this? The white horse and rider represent the CHURCH with the GOSPEL. No one knows what the bow without arrows represents, (unless God tells them) for John does not explain. However, when we go by CONTEXT, this white horse and rider can be nothing else BUT the church with the gospel. The context proves a 32 AD event. 

You are right, I pay very little attention to myth. Now, if you quite a scripture, I will pay very close attention to see what you SAY about that scripture.  

You are mistaken again about the seals. I suggest you camp out on chapters 4 & 5 and learn the context of this first seal. Did you know that John used the color white 17 times - and 16 of those 17 was to represent RIGHTEOUSNESS? Think about it! 

Hi iamlamad,

"No one knows what the bow without arrows represents, (unless God tells them) for John does not explain"

If we look into scripture for the first use (Law of Primacy) of the word "bow", we find it in Gen 9:13........

               " I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between me and the earth"

The Holy Spirit chose the word bow. It is a picture of God hanging up his weapon in the sky as a sign of a covenant that He would not destroy the earth with water again.

If John was referring to this verse in Genesis, it would imply that the rider of the white horse was "Hanging up his weapons and entering into a covenant." 

If bow truly does equate with a covenant (and God's Word says it does), then this passage related to the white horse in Rev 6 would be pointing us to those famous references of a deceptive covenant entered into by the Antichrist. And not only does bow equate with a covenant, but scripture shows us it equates with deception as well. "They are a deceptive bow; their princes fall by the sword" (Hos. 7:16) This is completely consistent with the rider of the white horse being a deceiver.

Yes, the Holy Spirit does use the color white 16 of 17 times in Revelation. But this 1 other time, the Holy Spirit is using it to show the rider of the white horse  is trying to appear as a messiah in Jesus' place. As the white horse rides, the False Prophet will proclaim to be the historic Jesus and will perform wondrous, lying signs to "prove" it.

" For many will come in my name saying I am the Christ and will mislead many.....For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect".............. (Math 24:5,24)

"He (False Prophet) performs great signs so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given to him to perform"....(Rev 13: 13-14)

" A white horse and he who sat on it had a bow and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer....(Rev 6:2)

If we study these 3 parallel passages (Rev 6, Math 24, Rev 13) we see great similarity of themes and even exact wording between them......a spiritual deception ( will mislead many, he deceives those who dwell on the earth), the use of signs and wonders (show great signs and wonders, performs great signs) and a deception that he is the historical Jesus (messiah horse and crown, come in my Name, I am the Christ, false Christs and false prophets)

Jesus' prophecies in Matthew 24:3-8 line up exactly with the seals of Revelation 6. Thus it's not difficult to work out what the first seal is.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them -

1. Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
2. and ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
3. and there shall be famines
4. and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. ALL these are the beginning of sorrows.

So Jesus lists - in the same order as in Revelation - the four seals that we call the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. That being the case, Jesus identifies for us the first Horseman as the power of DECEPTION, false christs and false prophets. Matthew 24: 23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance." Jesus confirms the same in Mark 13 and Luke 21.

Satan's purpose in sending the horsemen is to cause the inhabitants of the world to worship the Beast. He will empower the Antichrist and the False Prophet. The False Prophet is Satan's primary tool to cause the Bride of Christ to commit apostasy and thus undo Christ's plan of redemption. 

The False Prophet "makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast"....(Rev 13:12), and his main techniques are:

1-Signs and lying wonders

2-Warfare

3-The Mark of the Beast

4-Persecution unto death 

This order aligns perfectly with the first four seals on the 7 Sealed Scroll.

First...as the white horse rides.... the false prophet will proclaim to be the historic Jesus and use lying signs and wonders to prove it

Second.... as the red horse rides, the False Prophet and Antichrist will call Muslims to jihad, which will be very successful, and all will be in awe of them

Third.... as the black horse rides, the False Prophet will institute the Mark of the Beast, causing many to deny Christ, in order to feed their families

Fourth.... as the green horse rides, the False Prophet will make it mandatory for everyone to worship the image of the beast or face Death

Here is something interesting. The colors white, red, black and green. They are the same colors that are on the flags of the Islamic nations, and all of them contain only these four colors. Some contain two, some three and some four. But no other colors. Green was Mohammed's favorite color, and is considered the color of Islam. 

In Mathew 24:8.... Jesus describes events and then tells that they are "the beginning of birth pangs"

I'm sure everyone knows that "birth pangs" don't happen months or years, or thousands of years before the actual birth. No, they come very close to the end of a pregnancy, just before its time for birth.

I know that you will not agree with any of this. But that's ok brother. I'll still love you as a brother in Christ. And I'll still keep praying for you.

 

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad,

"No one knows what the bow without arrows represents, (unless God tells them) for John does not explain"

If we look into scripture for the first use (Law of Primacy) of the word "bow", we find it in Gen 9:13........

               " I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between me and the earth"

The Holy Spirit chose the word bow. It is a picture of God hanging up his weapon in the sky as a sign of a covenant that He would not destroy the earth with water again.

If John was referring to this verse in Genesis, it would imply that the rider of the white horse was "Hanging up his weapons and entering into a covenant." 

If bow truly does equate with a covenant (and God's Word says it does), then this passage related to the white horse in Rev 6 would be pointing us to those famous references of a deceptive covenant entered into by the Antichrist. And not only does bow equate with a covenant, but scripture shows us it equates with deception as well. "They are a deceptive bow; their princes fall by the sword" (Hos. 7:16) This is completely consistent with the rider of the white horse being a deceiver.

Yes, the Holy Spirit does use the color white 16 of 17 times in Revelation. But this 1 other time, the Holy Spirit is using it to show the rider of the white horse  is trying to appear as a messiah in Jesus' place. As the white horse rides, the False Prophet will proclaim to be the historic Jesus and will perform wondrous, lying signs to "prove" it.

" For many will come in my name saying I am the Christ and will mislead many.....For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect".............. (Math 24:5,24)

"He (False Prophet) performs great signs so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given to him to perform"....(Rev 13: 13-14)

" A white horse and he who sat on it had a bow and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer....(Rev 6:2)

If we study these 3 parallel passages (Rev 6, Math 24, Rev 13) we see great similarity of themes and even exact wording between them......a spiritual deception ( will mislead many, he deceives those who dwell on the earth), the use of signs and wonders (show great signs and wonders, performs great signs) and a deception that he is the historical Jesus (messiah horse and crown, come in my Name, I am the Christ, false Christs and false prophets)

Jesus' prophecies in Matthew 24:3-8 line up exactly with the seals of Revelation 6. Thus it's not difficult to work out what the first seal is.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them -

1. Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
2. and ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
3. and there shall be famines
4. and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. ALL these are the beginning of sorrows.

So Jesus lists - in the same order as in Revelation - the four seals that we call the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. That being the case, Jesus identifies for us the first Horseman as the power of DECEPTION, false christs and false prophets. Matthew 24: 23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance." Jesus confirms the same in Mark 13 and Luke 21.

Satan's purpose in sending the horsemen is to cause the inhabitants of the world to worship the Beast. He will empower the Antichrist and the False Prophet. The False Prophet is Satan's primary tool to cause the Bride of Christ to commit apostasy and thus undo Christ's plan of redemption. 

The False Prophet "makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast"....(Rev 13:12), and his main techniques are:

1-Signs and lying wonders

2-Warfare

3-The Mark of the Beast

4-Persecution unto death 

This order aligns perfectly with the first four seals on the 7 Sealed Scroll.

First...as the white horse rides.... the false prophet will proclaim to be the historic Jesus and use lying signs and wonders to prove it

Second.... as the red horse rides, the False Prophet and Antichrist will call Muslims to jihad, which will be very successful, and all will be in awe of them

Third.... as the black horse rides, the False Prophet will institute the Mark of the Beast, causing many to deny Christ, in order to feed their families

Fourth.... as the green horse rides, the False Prophet will make it mandatory for everyone to worship the image of the beast or face Death

Here is something interesting. The colors white, red, black and green. They are the same colors that are on the flags of the Islamic nations, and all of them contain only these four colors. Some contain two, some three and some four. But no other colors. Green was Mohammed's favorite color, and is considered the color of Islam. 

In Mathew 24:8.... Jesus describes events and then tells that they are "the beginning of birth pangs"

I'm sure everyone knows that "birth pangs" don't happen months or years, or thousands of years before the actual birth. No, they come very close to the end of a pregnancy, just before its time for birth.

I know that you will not agree with any of this. But that's ok brother. I'll still love you as a brother in Christ. And I'll still keep praying for you.

Do you know the Greek word behind "bow?" It is TOXON....where we get our word toxic. I looked in the Greek Septuagint, and every use of a bow used to shoot arrows used this say Greek word, Toxon.  Without any shadow of doubt, this bow this rider held is certainly to represent a weapon. I think (but certainly don't know for sure) that it is to represent the spiritual weapons of the church - that are strong to the pulling down of strongholds. 

I am totally amazed at Srongs:  "a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):—bow."  A bow made of of fabric has nothing tixic about it! How on earth did he come up with that?

Another online dictionary had this to say:  "Word History The Greek word toxon means "bow" or "arrow." From this came the Greek toxikon, meaning "a poison in which arrows are dipped." Toxikon was borrowed into Latin as toxicum, which gave rise to the Latin verb intoxicare, "to poison." "

The bow in Genesis comes from a Hebrew word. The root word means to bend. I think your whole theory on bow is therefore faulty. 

I wonder: do you imagine that the Antichrist Beast gets to choose his own color for the horse? Not a chance in the world. God chose the color for the Beast and it is fiery red.  Why would you even imagine God using white 16 times for righteousness and then once for something evil? That makes no sense. 

the colors for Islam:  Since these are church history riders, not 70th week riders, I see no connection.  If someone imagines the white horse rider as the Antichrist, they would see a connection. 

You are still 2000 years off on your timing for that white horse and rider. Please point out where you find 2000 years in the verses of chapter 5.

Matthew 24:5 is associated with "the end is not yet" so Jesus is not talking about end times - rather, he is talking about the church age.

If you want to see the first seal as the Antichrist, it is OK. But I will tell you, this theory will be proven wrong. 

Jesus' prophecies in Matthew 24:3-8 line up exactly with the seals of Revelation 6.  Not exactly, but there are some connections. But you miss something very important: those verses in Matthew are ALL tied to His words, "the end is not yet." In those verses Jesus is talking about the church age. And that is what I have been trying to get across to you all this time: the contest of the first seals is when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - so 32 AD.   However, I suspect you will hold onto your belief until the pretrib rapture comes.

Thanks for showing us these scriptures:

Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

1. and ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
2. and there shall be famines
3. and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. ALL these are the beginning of sorrows.

Note the pronouns starting these verses: they tie several verses together with "the end is not yet." Think about it! If He is not talking about the end, then He is talking about the church age.  We have seen two word wars, famines, pestilences - all this has happened over and over. What has not happened is in verse 15 when Jesus jumps to the middle of the week with the abomination. Everything Jesus said before verse 14 is church age.

You are getting to know me well. You are right, I disagree with every point! But that is OK. One of us is wrong.

 

[iamlamad]

42 minutes ago, JohnD said:

The seals on a real document I can buy. Although I doubt any two people can agree on which document it actually is.

But things like wormwood and the lion and bear and leopard are subject to interpretation and that's why I don't trifle with these as I know when they are fulfilled they will be in ways we did not anticipate to validate the prophecies they were intended to validate at the time they are fulfilled.

But prophecies like the temple standing and the sacrifice being abated and giving a number of days you have to admit is far more tangible than the

subjective ones you use to pooh pooh the tangible.

And as I said, I grow weary with this conversation with one who will not be convinced they are buying into a subjective prophecy to try to

disprove a tangible prophecy.

Be well.

I think I could convince at least some people that this document is the lease document of planet earth.  It is the very document that ends Satan's time as god of this world.

If something is tangible, and easily understood, I don't think I do pooh pooh it.  The truth is, there is not very much in Revelation that is easily understood! I believe we both understand the leopard beast is not real but is to REPRESENT a kingdom or kingdoms.  It does make sense that these kingdoms will be in the same land areas as the original beasts as written by Daniel. 

Perhaps you don't see a nuclear war in the first trumpets. It does not matter. They are coming and they will not be good. I see them as the Old Testament verses on THE DAY: that God is going to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. I see God starting that process in the trumpets and finishing it with the vials. 

If you don't get anything else, understand the purpose for these seals: to keep that book from getting opened which will allow Satan to remain as god of this world. In other words, it is impossible to "move" or rearrange a seal to coincide with something later in the book.  John systematically opens each seal, tells what that seal represents as far as events, and then when all seals are opened, tells us what is inside the book.  However, most readers will not notice when the book is opened, for John does not come right out and tell us.

By the way, I have NO DOUBT a new temple will be built. I have no doubt the daily sacrifices will start again. I have no doubt that at the midpoint of the week the man of sin will enter that temple, walk right into the Holy of Holies and declare to the whole world that he IS the God of the Jews. Paul tells us this. From the Old Testament we know that when that happens, the daily sacrifices MUST stop.  From Daniel I know that this event that stops the daily sacrifices will divide the week into two halves.  I also know this exact midpoint absolutely must be in chapters 11 through 13, for there is the 5 mentions of the start of countdowns to the end of the week. 

Surely you can agree on some of these points. They call come from scripture. 

[JoeCanada]

41 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Do you know the Greek word behind "bow?" It is TOXON....where we get our word toxic. I looked in the Greek Septuagint, and every use of a bow used to shoot arrows used this say Greek word, Toxon.  Without any shadow of doubt, this bow this rider held is certainly to represent a weapon. I think (but certainly don't know for sure) that it is to represent the spiritual weapons of the church - that are strong to the pulling down of strongholds. 

I am totally amazed at Srongs:  "a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):—bow."  A bow made of of fabric has nothing tixic about it! How on earth did he come up with that?

Another online dictionary had this to say:  "Word History The Greek word toxon means "bow" or "arrow." From this came the Greek toxikon, meaning "a poison in which arrows are dipped." Toxikon was borrowed into Latin as toxicum, which gave rise to the Latin verb intoxicare, "to poison." "

The bow in Genesis comes from a Hebrew word. The root word means to bend. I think your whole theory on bow is therefore faulty. 

I wonder: do you imagine that the Antichrist Beast gets to choose his own color for the horse? Not a chance in the world. God chose the color for the Beast and it is fiery red.  Why would you even imagine God using white 16 times for righteousness and then once for something evil? That makes no sense. 

the colors for Islam:  Since these are church history riders, not 70th week riders, I see no connection.  If someone imagines the white horse rider as the Antichrist, they would see a connection. 

You are still 2000 years off on your timing for that white horse and rider. Please point out where you find 2000 years in the verses of chapter 5.

Matthew 24:5 is associated with "the end is not yet" so Jesus is not talking about end times - rather, he is talking about the church age.

If you want to see the first seal as the Antichrist, it is OK. But I will tell you, this theory will be proven wrong. 

Jesus' prophecies in Matthew 24:3-8 line up exactly with the seals of Revelation 6.  Not exactly, but there are some connections. But you miss something very important: those verses in Matthew are ALL tied to His words, "the end is not yet." In those verses Jesus is talking about the church age. And that is what I have been trying to get across to you all this time: the contest of the first seals is when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - so 32 AD.   However, I suspect you will hold onto your belief until the pretrib rapture comes.

Thanks for showing us these scriptures:

Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

1. and ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
2. and there shall be famines
3. and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. ALL these are the beginning of sorrows.

Note the pronouns starting these verses: they tie several verses together with "the end is not yet." Think about it! If He is not talking about the end, then He is talking about the church age.  We have seen two word wars, famines, pestilences - all this has happened over and over. What has not happened is in verse 15 when Jesus jumps to the middle of the week with the abomination. Everything Jesus said before verse 14 is church age.

You are getting to know me well. You are right, I disagree with every point! But that is OK. One of us is wrong.

 

iamlamad,

Ok, I see. So what you're saying is that John saw Rev 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and most of 6 as happening in the past, then jumps to the future at Rev 6:12.  You may as well  say that Math 15 is also in the past, as it can be shown to have happened in 70 AD. They also had great tribulation. So that leaves the future in Math 24 :27-31 only.

Yup, it all makes sense now. Thanks for clearing that up.

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

iamlamad,

Ok, I see. So what you're saying is that John saw Rev 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and most of 6 as happening in the past, then jumps to the future at Rev 6:12.  You may as well  say that Math 15 is also in the past, as it can be shown to have happened in 70 AD. They also had great tribulation. So that leaves the future in Math 24 :27-31 only.

Yup, it all makes sense now. Thanks for clearing that up.

Are there still Christians being martyred? I think you will agree. At the 5th seal it seems they were told they must wait for the final martyr to be killed as they were.  It seems God knows the final number - and judgment must wait for that last one. 

So we are STILL waiting for that last one.  Judgment (Seal 6) has not started yet.

This SHOULD make sense!