MATTHEW 6:15 IF YE FORGIVE NOT

[douge]

3 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

 

In regards to 1 John being written to the Hebrews:

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Peter is writing to the scattered strangers who are Jews

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Peter is writing to Jews in the last time or the "last days" of entering into the tribulation. See Micah 4:1  Acts 2:17  2 Peter 3:3

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

John says it is the last time.  See 1 Peter 1:5

 

 

[Joulre2abba]

12 hours ago, douge said:

In regards to 1 John being written to the Hebrews:

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Peter is writing to the scattered strangers who are Jews.

But 1 John is not 1 Peter. Peter did minister to the Jews while John ministered to the Gentiles.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Peter is writing to Jews in the last time or the "last days" of entering into the tribulation. See Micah 4:1  Acts 2:17  2 Peter 3:3

The phrase "last days" began on the feast of Pentecost (Acts 2). Peter wrote in (2 Pet.3:8) of the last two days which equals 2 thousand years.

"Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day(1) is like a thousand years(1), and a thousand years(2) are like a day(2)."

In that verse "day" is said twice, and "thousand years" is said twice. Meaning "the last days" are a duration of 2 days or 2 thousand years.

That agrees with it having been 2 thousand years since Jesus was crucified. Therefore we know that the end of the age is upon us. 

Therefore, what John wrote below is in agreement with what I just said immediately above.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

John says it is the last time.  See 1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

What exactly does that verse mean to you?

It is contextually speaking of 1 Pet1:3-4 "His mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you(us)."

The living hope .. and imperishable refers to resurrection of the dead and at the same time the living being changed to incorrupable and all together raptured (1 Thes.4:13-18; 1 Cor.15:50-54)

That is what Peter is saying we are "kept by .. unto salvation." The salvation there is not speaking of being born again because Peter said "born again" in verse 3 .. so the word "salvation" in verse 5 is referring to being raptured. As Paul wrote (Rm.8:23-24) concerning "the redemption of our bodies".

"We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time.
Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved."

The word "saved" in Rm.8 and "salvation" in Peter indicate they are both talking about "rescue" ie rapture.. and not about being born again.

So, I'm somewhat puzzled as to what exactly you were wanting to convey in response to my post concerning confessing our sins to be forgiven?

 

 

[douge]

6 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

 

I was just showing that, in the epistles of Peter and John, the time frame is the "last time", the tribulation; therefore, their epistles are written to Jews facing the tribulation.

Therefore, a lot of what John is writing, including having to confess sin for forgiveness, is not written to us, the body of Christ. We are not under a covenant like Israel. We are not under the law like Israel. We can benefit, and learn, from all scripture but we are not always the subject of it.

Also at Pentecost, this was a Jewish assembly, who were being empowered by the Holy Ghost to be prepared for the last days tribulation. At this time they were still being offered the kingdom on earth. That ended with the stoning of Stephen, and the dispensation of grace by Paul. The kingdom will come in the future and will be given to believing Israel.

[Joulre2abba]

1 hour ago, douge said:

I was just showing that, in the epistles of Peter and John, the time frame is the "last time", the tribulation; therefore, their epistles are written to Jews facing the tribulation.

Who would they be?.. in Peter's epistle he mentioned the Jews in comparison of scripture about those who stumble in rejecting the Cornerstone (Jesus). All messianic believers like Peter himself wouldn't be going through the Tribulation. Not only because the Church has been waiting two thousand years.. but also because the promise to Christians and Messianic believers alike .. as the apostle Paul wrote (2 Thes.2:7-8) plus other scriptures that confirm it (not to highjack the thread).. that none shall go through the Tribulation.

Therefore, a lot of what John is writing, including having to confess sin for forgiveness, is not written to us, the body of Christ. We are not under a covenant like Israel. We are not under the law like Israel. We can benefit, and learn, from all scripture but we are not always the subject of it.

You've gone to repeating yourself so I'll not repeat what I earlier gave in answer to this.

Also at Pentecost, this was a Jewish assembly, who were being empowered by the Holy Ghost to be prepared for the last days tribulation.

They were Messianic Jews which means that they accepted Christ as their Savior among them are the original disciples and those apostles we know wrote the epistles.

They were empowered by the Holy Spirit to be prepared to witness to unbelieving Jews. It wasn't until Acts 10 that it was revealed to Peter that Gentiles are to be accepted as well. 

There were those telling the believers that the Day of the Lord had come which would be to us that some were saying that the Rapture of the Church had already taken place and the Tribulation begun. But the apostle Paul wrote assurance to all that the Day of the Lord had not come (2 Thes.2:1-3, 6-8).

He told them not to be shaken or disturbed by false rumors. So the empowering of the Church by the Holy Spirit is to restrain the antichrist who only at the right time and not before is revealed which brings about the Tribulation.

At this time they were still being offered the kingdom on earth. That ended with the stoning of Stephen, and the dispensation of grace by Paul.

I haven't heard that the kingdom on earth had ended with the stoning of Stephen before. There isn't any scripture to support it.

The kingdom will come in the future and will be given to believing Israel.

The kingdom is for those who believe in Jesus. For those who are "the flock" and Jesus is the Good Shepherd. The kingdom is for Christians throughout the Church age. Paul wrote in Col.1:13 "For He delivered us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son." Those in Colossians are Greek not Jewish. By extension to all Gentile nations throughout the years of the Church age, Paul is speaking to us.. the Gentile believers.

During the Tribulation the kingdom of darkness will fight to prevail on the earth but it will be overcome by Jesus Christ in His Second Coming. And that same kingdom of God's beloved Son will prevail throughout the Millennium and forever., not to be succeeded by any subsequent Gentile strictly human ruler or empire.

 

 

[Xethea]

On 2/18/2019 at 2:26 AM, Michael37 said:

He's still doing this.

Really? Peter still doesn't get it after thousands of years? Gee wiz 

[Xethea]

On 2/22/2019 at 10:17 AM, douge said:

If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. Leviticus 26:40-42

1 John is written to Hebrews. 1 John 1:9 is speaking in the sense of a national confession, similar to Leviticus above.

We do not have to confess sins to be forgiven, we already are. We need to repent of them, and walk to please the Lord.

 

 

To what you're saying, you do recall that God wants us to confess our sin to those we have done wrong, and he wants us to forgive them BEFORE we come to God worth an offering or ask for forgiveness? 

 

I suppose I could say I'll be forgiven even if I don't tell anyone I forgive them, but to just walk off and leave them not knowing I do, that just sounds selfish and ungodly to me.

[Michael37]

16 hours ago, Xethea said:

Really? Peter still doesn't get it after thousands of years? Gee wiz 

Xethea, Jesus was teaching the disciples gathered unto him, and is still doing this. Those who are not His disciples do not follow His teachings but Praise God for those who are taught by Jesus today.

Please Note: Jesus is not a wizard so please don't use that worldly blasphemous expression amended with a strikethrough in the quote panel above .

This is Jesus teaching His disciples right here, today if they truly are His disciples.

Joh 17:17-26
(17)  Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
(18)  As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
(19)  And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
(20)  "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
(21)  that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
(22)  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
(23)  I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
(24)  "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
(25)  O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.
(26)  And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

[douge]

20 hours ago, Xethea said:

To what you're saying, you do recall that God wants us to confess our sin to those we have done wrong, and he wants us to forgive them BEFORE we come to God worth an offering or ask for forgiveness? 

 

I suppose I could say I'll be forgiven even if I don't tell anyone I forgive them, but to just walk off and leave them not knowing I do, that just sounds selfish and ungodly to me.

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:15

All that you said about forgiveness in your first sentence, was Jesus dealing with Israel. Israel is under a covenant relationship that they had to adhere to. For them to be forgiven they had to forgive.

That is not to say we shouldn't forgive, you are right in what you said, but the motivation is that we have been forgiven already.  Ephesians 4:32  Colossians 3:13

 

[JohnD]

On 2/17/2019 at 12:03 PM, douge said:

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Jesus was teaching the disciples gathered unto him.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

The disciples were being taught, and prepared, to enter the promised Davidic kingdom on earth.

Matthew 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.

Israel was to enter a time of great tribulation before entering the kingdom. During this time they would have to rely upon God to provide food for them.

Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

This would be the hallmark of the Jews during the tribulation; they are commanded to love one another.

Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

The coming kingdom of heaven will only be given to Jews who keep the commandments. If they do not forgive one another, as commanded, they will not enter the kingdom. See Matthew 18:23 thru Matthew 18:35

OR...

The New Covenant / Testament was not in effect yet...

Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The so-called Lord's prayer (actually the disciple's prayer) is under the Old Covenant in the Old Testament.

The New Testament / New Covenant did not begin until the death of our Lord on the cross.

Luke 22:20 (AV)
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 (AV)
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

 

[JohnD]

Dr. David Breese and others championed a theology that states in essence believers in Jesus Christ get the universe in eternity while Jews who did not believe in Jesus get the Earth in eternity. And they go through this kind of kingdom of heaven versus kingdom of God or "the kingdom" as if there were distinctions between what the Bible clearly uses as multiple references to the same kingdom.

Romans 3:1–12 (AV)
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 9:1–6 (AV)
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Ephesians 2 (AV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Now there are those here who will try to tear this down and crucify me for being the messenger: one who only quoted scripture.

The Jews (who do not believe in Jesus) ARE the chosen people of Earth. Believers in Jesus Christ (Jewish born or Gentile born) ARE the chosen of heaven.

The unbelieving Jews' capital is Jerusalem.

Believer's capital is the the Jerusalem from above.

Galatians 4 (AV)
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Romans 2:20–29 (AV)
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Galatians 3:24–29 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There is a physical Israel (the chosen of Earth).

There is a spirit Israel (the chosen of heaven).

And circumcision of the heart is what God has been after since the beginning (Deuteronomy 10:16 Jeremiah 4:4). 

Only circumcision in heart can include females (thus making true there is no difference in Christ between male and female, Greek or Jew....).

The believing body of the Jewish Messiah has been denied (by the thinking of men) our spiritual heritage as spirit Jews by 

antisemitic Gentiles and exclusivist Jews. In other words: Jewish pride and Gentile prejudice.  

And btw... the Holy Land is the home of the physical Jews PERIOD. 

Ezekiel 46:16–18 (AV)
16 Thus saith the Lord GOD; If the prince give a gift unto any of his sons, the inheritance thereof shall be his sons’; it shall be their possession by inheritance.
17 But if he give a gift of his inheritance to one of his servants, then it shall be his to the year of liberty; after it shall return to the prince: but his inheritance shall be his sons’ for them.
18 Moreover the prince shall not take of the people’s inheritance by oppression, to thrust them out of their possession; but he shall give his sons inheritance out of his own possession: that my people be not scattered every man from his possession.

Okay. Now I'm running for cover!