The Hebrews Roots Movement

[BibleGuy]

33 minutes ago, JLB said:

 

The scripture tells us, what exactly Abraham obeyed, by which he was justified, so we don’t have to assume anything.

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

 

• justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

 

Abraham was justified when he obeyed God to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

 

By the way, Abraham did obey God’s voice, and His laws and commandments.

 

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:5

 

 

 

 

JLB

 

 

 

 

Yes, and we are NOT told that the ONLY work which justified Abraham was the work of offering his son.

Thus, in general, JUSTIFICATION BY WORKS (for Abraham) includes justification by ALL works of faithful obedience to God's voice, laws, and commandments....not merely the single work of offering his son.

After all, it's justification by WORKS (not merely a singular WORK).

blessings...

 

[Resurrection Priest]

13 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

So, here's some evidence proving that Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial activity will occur again in the FUTURE:

I don't personally use the word "prove" much, especially when discussing prophecy.  I prefer the word "support".  I quote verses which I think "support" a certain view or interpretation.  I also try to use the words "I believe", to show that it's my own personal belief, and I'm not dissing anyone for holding a different belief. 

It will take awhile to go through all your "proof" texts, but I can say that I have personally looked at all of them.  

13 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Eze.40-47 is yet future.

While I agree that Ezekiel's vision of a Temple and a City, was a prophecy of a future time for Israel, I believe that prophecy was given in symbols and types.  I do not believe the entire vision was a literal view of a future Jerusalem. 

The "stream" for instance, that flowed from the Temple and became a "river" to wide to cross - I believe that river represented the Spirit of the LORD, which flows from the throne of the Father and His Son.  Water in the Scriptures often represents the Spirit.  It comes down as "the latter rain".  We are sprinkled with water, and baptized in water.  We receive the "water of life".  In Ezekiel's vision, that water brings everything back to life.  Same is true of the Spirit.  "The Spirit is life." 

The vision was given before Jews were released from Babylon, and given permission to rebuild their City and their Temple.  Messiah had not yet died to fulfill the sacrificial types.  If the LORD had given Ezekiel a vision without animal sacrifices, the people might misunderstood the message and abandoned the sacrifice of animals before it was time. 

13 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

12. The SAME LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD characteristic of Israel CONTINUES! (1Pe.2:9).

In verse one, where Peter addresses his Epistle to "the pilgrims of the Dispersion", I don't believe he is speaking just to Jews.  He is speaking to all the "grafted" in Gentiles as well - to every believer, to Israel redeemed.  He calls them "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation His own special people . . . who once were not a people but are now the people of God.  Where does Peter say this "royal priesthood" is the "SAME LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD".  I don't see that.  I believe Peter is speaking of the Melchizedek priesthood of "the firstborn" of God.  

This priesthood is NOT exclusively Aaronic.   

In support, I would site the song of the 24 Elders (Revelation 5:9-10).  The Elders sing they have been redeemed to God by the blood of Christ out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have been made "kings and priests" (or are being made - depending on your interpretation of Greek tense) and will reign on the earth."  If they are to be kings as well as priests, then these are Melchizedek priests, not exclusively Levite priests. 

Also Isaiah 61:3-9 

"To console those who mourn in Zion, To give them beauty for ashes, The oil of joy for mourning, The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; That they may be called trees of righteousness, The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified." 4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolations, And they shall repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations. 5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, And the sons of the foreigner Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD, They shall call you the servants of our God. You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, And in their glory you shall boast. 7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor, And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion. Therefore in their land they shall possess double; Everlasting joy shall be theirs. 8 "For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, And will make with them an everlasting covenant. 9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles, And their offspring among the people. All who see them shall acknowledge them, That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed." (NKJ)

Levite priests had NO INHERITANCE in the land.  They did not "possess double" (the inheritance of "the firstborn").  These priests do.  These are Melchizedek priests. 

I believe that faithful Levite priests WILL become priests in the coming Kingdom of Messiah - Melchizedek priests - "kings and priests" - "priests of God and of Christ".  There will no longer be an exclusive Aaronic priesthood. 

PS:  It is doubtful there are only 24 individual Elders (Rev. 5).  More likely 24 "courses" of Elders.  Illustrated by King David's division of the priests into 24 courses, whose service at the Temple was rotated on a schedule (See 1Chron Cpt 24-25). 

[Resurrection Priest]

I can see by responses in this thread, that I can look forward to dialog with some great Bible students.  I like good discussion.   If I just wanted something canned, I wouldn't come to a forum like this one.  Discussion makes me stretch and think and dig deeper.  Thanks much.

[BibleGuy]

6 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I don't personally use the word "prove" much, especially when discussing prophecy.  I prefer the word "support".  I quote verses which I think "support" a certain view or interpretation.  I also try to use the words "I believe", to show that it's my own personal belief, and I'm not dissing anyone for holding a different belief. 

It will take awhile to go through all your "proof" texts, but I can say that I have personally looked at all of them.  

While I agree that Ezekiel's vision of a Temple and a City, was a prophecy of a future time for Israel, I believe that prophecy was given in symbols and types.  I do not believe the entire vision was a literal view of a future Jerusalem. 

The "stream" for instance, that flowed from the Temple and became a "river" to wide to cross - I believe that river represented the Spirit of the LORD, which flows from the throne of the Father and His Son.  Water in the Scriptures often represents the Spirit.  It comes down as "the latter rain".  We are sprinkled with water, and baptized in water.  We receive the "water of life".  In Ezekiel's vision, that water brings everything back to life.  Same is true of the Spirit.  "The Spirit is life." 

The vision was given before Jews were released from Babylon, and given permission to rebuild their City and their Temple.  Messiah had not yet died to fulfill the sacrificial types.  If the LORD had given Ezekiel a vision without animal sacrifices, the people might misunderstood the message and abandoned the sacrifice of animals before it was time. 

In verse one, where Peter addresses his Epistle to "the pilgrims of the Dispersion", I don't believe he is speaking just to Jews.  He is speaking to all the "grafted" in Gentiles as well - to every believer, to Israel redeemed.  He calls them "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation His own special people . . . who once were not a people but are now the people of God.  Where does Peter say this "royal priesthood" is the "SAME LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD".  I don't see that.  I believe Peter is speaking of the Melchizedek priesthood of "the firstborn" of God.  

This priesthood is NOT exclusively Aaronic.   

In support, I would site the song of the 24 Elders (Revelation 5:9-10).  The Elders sing they have been redeemed to God by the blood of Christ out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have been made "kings and priests" (or are being made - depending on your interpretation of Greek tense) and will reign on the earth."  If they are to be kings as well as priests, then these are Melchizedek priests, not exclusively Levite priests. 

Also Isaiah 61:3-9 

"To console those who mourn in Zion, To give them beauty for ashes, The oil of joy for mourning, The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; That they may be called trees of righteousness, The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified." 4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolations, And they shall repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations. 5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, And the sons of the foreigner Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD, They shall call you the servants of our God. You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, And in their glory you shall boast. 7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor, And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion. Therefore in their land they shall possess double; Everlasting joy shall be theirs. 8 "For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, And will make with them an everlasting covenant. 9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles, And their offspring among the people. All who see them shall acknowledge them, That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed." (NKJ)

Levite priests had NO INHERITANCE in the land.  They did not "possess double" (the inheritance of "the firstborn").  These priests do.  These are Melchizedek priests. 

I believe that faithful Levite priests WILL become priests in the coming Kingdom of Messiah - Melchizedek priests - "kings and priests" - "priests of God and of Christ".  There will no longer be an exclusive Aaronic priesthood. 

PS:  It is doubtful there are only 24 individual Elders (Rev. 5).  More likely 24 "courses" of Elders.  Illustrated by King David's division of the priests into 24 courses, whose service at the Temple was rotated on a schedule (See 1Chron Cpt 24-25). 

Hi there!

" I do not believe the entire vision was a literal view of a future Jerusalem. "

Ok...but then, if we open the door to non-literal interpretations, then where does it stop?  We could go CRAZY with non-literal interpretations....

Thus I submit we should be as LITERAL as possible, unless we have good reasons to be non-literal in particular cases.....otherwise we slide down the slippery slope towards metaphorical rejection of objective Biblical truth that should NOT be "allegorized" or "metaphoricized".....

"Where does Peter say this "royal priesthood" is the "SAME LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD". "

Peter is quoting the ISRAEL-language from the Tanakh...and in context...the Tanakh presumes the PRIESTHOOD CHARACTERISTIC of Israel references the LEVITICAL Priesthood....

So, even Gentiles grafted into Israel are included in the PEOPLE who are ISRAEL who are a HOLY PRIESTHOOD because they (corporately) are the only people on the planet with the Levitical Priesthood Covenant.

 

"I believe Peter is speaking of the Melchizedek priesthood of "the firstborn" of God.  "

Why assume "firstborn" is always a Melchizedek type of reference?  I didn't see that viewpoint clearly supported...

 

"If they are to be kings as well as priests, then these are Melchizedek priests, not exclusively Levite priests. "

Why?

 

"Levite priests had NO INHERITANCE in the land.  They did not "possess double" (the inheritance of "the firstborn").  These priests do.  These are Melchizedek priests. "

Rather, Is. 61 may be viewed as simply describing various characteristics of the Restored Israelite peoples.....NOT characteristics merely of the priests alone....in which case your deduction falls apart.

After all, we know that the restoration of Israel includes 100% obedience of ALL the Torah of Moses (Dt.30:1-8), so there's no reason to worry about the possibility that all the Elders are Levitical priests.

 

"I believe that faithful Levite priests WILL become priests in the coming Kingdom of Messiah - Melchizedek priests - "kings and priests" - "priests of God and of Christ".  There will no longer be an exclusive Aaronic priesthood. "

Perhaps....but we have such stinking little information about the whole "melchizedek" thing....that it's tough to be too confident about such things....but maybe.

 

"PS:  It is doubtful there are only 24 individual Elders (Rev. 5).  More likely 24 "courses" of Elders.  Illustrated by King David's division of the priests into 24 courses, whose service at the Temple was rotated on a schedule (See 1Chron Cpt 24-25). "

Maybe!  But then, that only helps to support the idea the the "Elders" of "Elder courses" are LEVITICAL....just as before.

After all, the future fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant involves LEVITICAL RESTORATION (Jer.33:17-22)....

 

blessings...

 

 

 

 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

21 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

" I do not believe the entire vision was a literal view of a future Jerusalem. "

Ok...but then, if we open the door to non-literal interpretations, then where does it stop?  We could go CRAZY with non-literal interpretations....

Thus I submit we should be as LITERAL as possible, unless we have good reasons to be non-literal in particular cases.....otherwise we slide down the slippery slope towards metaphorical rejection of objective Biblical truth that should NOT be "allegorized" or "metaphoricized".....

Hi BibleGuy.

Wasn't the whole Tabernacle/Priesthood/Feasts a prophecy, and wasn't it all symbolic of Christ to come?  The "lamb" symbolized Christ.  Every priest symbolized Christ, in the way that the priest "made atonement" for the sinner, etc. etc.  Every Feast was a prophecy of what Messiah would do.  It was all symbolism. 

QUESTION:  How long do you believe the Aaronic priesthood order will continue?  Til the Glorious Return of Messiah? 

Through the Millennium?  Forever? 

John said he "saw no Temple" in the New Jerusalem.  It does seem that - at some point, the Temple on earth will be no more. 

Personally, I believe "heaven and earth will pass away" at the Glorious Return.  I believe the 7 last plagues will destroy all life on planet earth, and possibly our solar system as well.  The earth with all its works "will be burned up"  which means the cycle of day/night will end - at least for some period of time, until Yeshua heals/restores it (or even creates it new again). 

  Hebrews 1:10-12 [God the Father speaking to His Son]  “You Lord, In the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands;  they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like clothing; like a cloak you will roll them up, and like clothing they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never end.”

So this cannot be just "the land" promised to Abraham.  This is "the earth, and the heavens" that were the work of the LORD "in the beginning".

QUESTION:  Are you one of the folks who say the Letter to the Hebrews should not be included with the Apostolic writings?

“The sky receded as a scroll which is rolled up” (Rev.6:14).  (This is at the 7th Trumpet of Revelation.)

2 Peter 3:10  “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”

Mark 13:31  “Heaven and earth will pass away, . . .”  (Lk 21:33, Matt. 24:36).

 
 

 

 

[Alive]

I think the Lord may have a spare universe ready to go.

[Resurrection Priest]

I was thinking about the numbers.  Israel was a small nation.  The tribe of Levi would be 1/12th of that number - roughly speaking.  The family of Aaron 1/3rd of that, and male descendants only half of that.  That number would be significantly less, when you realize that only those faithful "in heart" (circumcised in heart) will be saved into the Kingdom of Messiah.  Not very many to serve the large population of the "saved" from the entire history of earth.  (I personally do not believe there will be marriage or reproduction after the Glorious Return, so the numbers would not change.) 

But if "the priesthood" were indeed changed back to "the firstborn" - the order of Melchizedek, then you would have a much larger number of priests to serve at Ezekiel's Temple. 

The sacrifice of animals is a separate issue. 

[JLB]

On 11/22/2019 at 5:11 AM, BibleGuy said:

Yes, and we are NOT told that the ONLY work which justified Abraham was the work of offering his son.

 

We are told that Abraham was justified WHEN he offered his son.

 

However, this was not the first time he was justified.

 

 

 JLB 

 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

On 11/19/2019 at 1:52 PM, BibleGuy said:

The Palestinian Covenant of great importance is attached to this covenant in that it reaffirms to Israel, in no uncertain terms, their title deed to the land of promise. (Gen 13:15; 17:7-8) This Palestinian covenant amplifies the land features of the Abrahamic covenant. The provisions of this covenant is stated in Deut. 30:1-10.

The New Jerusalem is 345 miles on each side (depending on translation), so the New Jerusalem, when it descends will cover the entire land area promised to "the Seed of Abraham". 

If "THE Seed" - one Seed, is Yeshua Messiah, that fits.  He was the ONLY "seed" of Abraham to fulfill all the terms of the Sinai Covenant, therefore He will inherit "the land". 

We then inherit - "in Him".  He extends His inheritance to us.  We get to live in His New Jerusalem and His Kingdom, in His land. 

Galatians 3:29 "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (NIV)

The promise Covenant to Abraham was a prophecy of Yeshua the Christ. 

Big IF there. 

If the "Olive Tree" of Romans Eleven represents "Israel", then some are "broken off" (cut off) for unbelief, and some Gentiles are grafted into that tree because of their belief in Jesus as Messiah.  And yes the newly grafted Gentiles should not get proud because they can be "broken off" too. 

When Paul said, "all Israel will be saved", that "Israel" will consist of those who "belong to Christ" by faith.  He could just as easily have said, "only Israel will be saved".  One either belongs to Christ, or doesn't.   The "Root" of the Olive Tree "is holy".  We draw life from that Root.  That Root is Yeshua Messiah. 

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, Roar said:

The "root is Yeshua HaMashiach" but it also the Nation of Israel

https://christianitybeliefs.org/end-times-deceptions/the-star-of-david-deception/