The one taken and the one left, who shall be saved ?

[iamlamad]

On 3/31/2019 at 12:53 PM, Jostler said:

I think this is an excellent example of why so many of our  eschatalogical discussions have to end (in this format at least) without much  in the way  of satisfying  results.  We all, every  last one of us (me included) bring to the table a whole paradigm of "understanding" it took us  years to develop.  Somewhere back in the process of building that paradigm we've all been  forced to make some assumptions.    If any one of those assumptions, from either side of a viewpoint is less than wholly Scripture, and/or less than perfectly  understood, then a measure  of confusion gets introduced.   And of course nobody that loves the Lord  ever does that intentionally .   We do the best we know how to do with a limited mind, peering through a dark  glass and trying to understand  what we see.  Thankfully the basics that determine our  ultimate destination are clear and understandable enough for a five year old to grasp. 

There are a number  of things that affect this and one is the fact that God did not provide allll the prophecies in Scripture for the purpose of informing us with  100% certainty and clarity  exactly  what the future holds.  We have an enemy, and He's a good Commander.  He gives us enough, what we need to know to be "in position", where we should be and properly armed and supplied to do the job He's assigned to us during OUR appointed time on this battlefield.  But He doesn't give enough revelation of His  plans for the  enemy to be able to piece  it all together and set counterplans in motion to thwart Him.  And in fact His wisdom is such that, over and over, the enemy's moves actually end up accomplishing HIS purposes and advancing HIS plans.  This will be found  to the praise of His wisdom for all eternity.  Satan's greatest challenges and moves he thought would be massively devastating blows to God's rule consistently end up being turned into satan's greatest defeats.  The Cross is probably the central and primary example, but satan's challenges of God's covenant with  Abraham, his assault on Job, even the  whole Genesis 6 issue have all backfired, horrifically.

But satan would never have  crucified the  King  of Glory had he  properly understood the real consequences of Jesus' death.

Why did "they" not understand?  It's because this "wisdom" was hidden from them in a mystery.   And it was hidden from men too....not hidden from us but hidden in  Him FOR us.  This mystery  of "Christ in you" was NOT understood by man or  satan until after the fact.  Why?  Because every prophecy  that  alluded to it was scattered all over the OT in such a way nobody  could begin to  put the pieces together into a full picture until AFTER THE FACT.  The Scribes and Pharisees....keepers of the precious trust  of the Word of God, had enough to go on to  identify  WHO Jesus was (and did so, and rejected Him anyway) even they didn't understand the  details of His working nor  did  they  understand "Christ in you" was His plan and purpose in His first advent.  Only  with the benefit  of HINDSIGHT can we see all that clearly in the Old Testament prophecies. 

Which makes me assume that not all prophecy  is intended to inform us with  100% certainty exactly how the  future will unfold.  Over and over God holds up PROPHECY as HIS distinctive.  He literally mocks diviners, soothsayers and mages that try to predict the future.  It's mankind's surest proof of who He is and His perfect reliability.  When thousands years of prophetic utterance comes together ....finally....in EXACTLY the way  it was prophesied, we can then look allll the way back there and see God waving at us. 

"See?  I'm here....all the way back here....I knew, I am Who I say  I am and what I say comes to pass.  Perfectly, every time.  And you  can fully trust everything else I've ever said that you don't fully comprehend yet.  It will come to pass and when it does you'll understand."

So, we make some of the  mistakes those in Jesus' day  made.  Almost to a man, from the Sanhedrin to the simple farmer, had an expectation that Messiah would  appear as a conquering King, come to restore Israel as the head of nations.  And they missed, overlooked all the prophecies that pointed to the suffering servant, the pure Lamb who was slain.  Didn't matter how  clearly all that was portrayed  in utterance or  in Temple worship symbolism.  It still got overlooked.

We're going  to find it's little different today.  MUCH of what is vigorously defended today  will be proven wrong in significant ways by unfolding events.  But we still have a responsibility to  keep TRYING to understand  (and in some cases teach) accurately what He  HAS revealed, and furthermore IS REVEALING.

Daniel has a REALLY interesting thing to tell us  about our day...the day we're living  in.

A great deal of 'end times' prophecy  interpretation has run hard up against this truth right here.  If we drag in a bit  of the context, we see Daniel here in the presence  of a heavenly messenger who has just  given Daniel this incredible, sweeping view of the  end  times.   It's a massive vision...a sweeping multilayered revelation across literally thousands of years of human history some of which  are historical to us,  some of which have seen partial fulfillments already, and some that won't be complete until the end of the Millennial Reign.

But at the  time the Daniel was just confused by it all.  He couldn't make heads  or tails of what he'd seen.  So like any of us might have done he  simply asked for some clarification.  And the  angel refused to  provide it.  He simply told Daniel in so many words "Just write it down, go about the  rest  of your life.  This is not  for you to understand.  The Spirit  has reserved understanding of  this to  a future people.  NOBODY  will understand this UNTIL...the time of the end"

I am pretty sure that in days preceding now good, well meaning men of God have sought  to understand things the  Holy Spirit was simply  not willing to reveal, and pushing beyond that, accidently got off into speculation and assumption, resulting in so much  of the confusion we see today surrounding these topics. 

But are we in that time, are we now close  enough to the end of the  age that He  IS willing to begin revealing the hidden understanding He sealed up in Daniel's day?  Even that is arguable, but I do believe He is ready to reveal and in fact is doing so. 

I know  when I got a revelation of the fact that  there WERE "hidden" revelations that simply were not going to be understood until the time He appointed them to be revealed, I pointedly asked He  reveal anything He  was willing to  ...to  me.  I want to know and if He's willing to tell someone now, stuff He's never been willing to say in the hearing  of man before now, then  i want to know  what it is.

First thing He  did was absolutely wreck my pretty pre-trib sermon.  Just brutally  dismantled it verse by verse   I found a lot of other "revelation" I thought I had falling apart at about  the same time, and being identified for what it really was....assumptions.  

So what  can we do?  I don't have an answer.  Above you reflect some assumptions about salvation, the work and purpose  of the  Holy Spirit...understanding  of the real relationships  between humanity  and the two kinds  of death....all so foreign to my understanding we'd have to spend days upon days discussing EACH of those before we could even get back to this whole issue of how the  end times will really unfold.

I had my whole previous paradigm utterly  destroyed.  Disassembled piece by  piece and it took  Him THREE YEARS to  do it.  After that I was left with absolutely NOTHING ....and whaddya know, once the floor was cleared of  all the trash  I'd piled on it, He  started building again.  It took another three years before I began to think i was beginning to see a coherent  picture emerge again.  And it was so incredibly different than anything I'd believed before it is still a marvel to me.

So, now I've got this whole different paradigm of understanding and it clashes with yours   And some  of this new paradigm is based on ASSUMPTIONS.  I'm a bit more aware of where  those are, and cling  to those very  lightly  now, but they're there.  And arguable.  Do  I have it all right yet?  Oh almost certainly not.  All I can do  is share what I fully believe He has shared with me, and my testimony of how He  showed it to me (which is something  I may  end up sharing  more of at some point).

I know  in this process, over and over  He has demanded that I take His  Word as He wrote it, with a determined focus on adding nothing  to it and taking  nothing away from it.  Every misunderstanding He's dismantled for me so far has involved an assumption  on my part.  Adding  to or explaining away one part or another, never once intentionally dishonoring His Word, yet it's still what  I did, honorable INTENTION or not.  Even saying that literalism can be taken too far as well   There obviously are symbolic references, types and shadows, parables.....none of which were ever intended  to be read literally.  So even literalism has to be bounded by  revelation and understanding.

I can share two "events" from my  own testimony  that were "landmarks".  One was the realization  that almost  without exception, the end times  teaching  I'd been exposed to  ran right out to the end of Revelation 19 and Jesus second coming....and stopped.  Period.   When He  pointed out that there were still 1000 years of human history left to unfold AFTER His  return, and that ALL that  needed to  be integrated and understood in order  to gain a fuller, more accurate picture....it was a life changing  revelation.  I'd NEVER heard a full sermon on the Millennial Reign and still today understanding/teaching of it is rare.  And when you do begin to explore  just what there is to be understood about  that time it was surprising to me just how  much information the Bible contains about  it.  The vast majority  of it is  in the OT too.   So  some might want to begin there.  It's important, and it's a topic that has long been overlooked and neglected.  But it informs and enlightens a whole bunch  of other parts of the Bible.

Another  key event was when He  showed me that the  RESULT of most end times teaching was fear.  And pointed out  He  NEVER uses fear in any  way, for any  purpose in the lives  of His people.  So if supposedly inspired preaching were bearing  that kind of fruit, SOMETHING is not right  with  it.  We've failed to teach Revelation as a "revealing" of Jesus Christ.  We have been guilty  of teaching it with an unspoken and unintentional but very  flawed perspective....as if Revelation were  a revealing  of the  beast and his  plans and purposes.  And fear has been the result

This post from above:

 

Is a very  anemic, incomplete portion of a rather incredible "whole".  But it's a starting point.  If we can accept the precision and literal information  presented in the  very clear description of two resurrections, and begin comparing ALL the other  resurrection passages to those as our  start point, I predict you'll find that all the other verses we've layered over with  all this vast number of varied assumptions, fit right into one of these two resurrections.  We can utterly throw away  the  introduction of a latin word into the conversation and get back  to just referring to things as the Bible does....resurrections.  We don't need a "rapture" to describe an event that  the Bible clearly  defines as simply part of a resurrection.  It's all one resurrection with slightly  different operations depending on whether we're alive in a physical body or not when it happens.

Anyway   Marv i have no  reason to question your  integrity or desire to do His will and share  truth   Been there, done that, been dead wrong with all the right motives, and still probably have significant problems already entrained in  this new understanding.  All I can do is trust that He'll weed those out  too  as I keep seeking Him.

So where does that leave us?  I  have no idea .....

I guess we each  continue  to do the best we know how with  what we have.

Your first paragraph is very interesting. 

We have an enemy, and He's a good Commander.   I think you meant  We have an enemy, but God is a good Commander. 

First thing He  did was absolutely wreck my pretty pre-trib sermon.  I would like to know HOW since God Himself is pretrib. Can you elaborate - with scripture? Show us which verses.

it was so incredibly different than anything I'd believed before it is still a marvel to me.  Of course this will have to be judged by OUR take on the scriptures. 

We don't need a "rapture" to describe an event that  the Bible clearly  defines as simply part of a resurrection.  Sorry, but the very word "resurrect" must include one who is dead. For those alive and in Christ, they are not "resurrected" but instead are caught up (rapture) and then changed - or both happen at the same moment.  I guess whoever translated it into Latin thought they needed that word to have an accurate translation. 

[iamlamad]

On 3/31/2019 at 1:13 PM, Montana Marv said:

No fear. Just the Facts.  The righteous have an eternity with Christ. The unrighteous have an eternity without Christ.  One partakes in the First Resurrection, which Jesus Christ was the First Fruit of. Or one partakes in the Other Resurrection, which is of the dead.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I agree. Good. Simple but true. 

[iamlamad]

On 3/31/2019 at 2:40 PM, Jostler said:

All I can do is go  back to the  fact I can't see your assertions about  death or the  resurrections portrayed in Scripture at all.  AFAIK the  two resurrections are clearly defined so unambiguously as to be unmistakable.  Spiritual death and physical death are just as clearly explained.  We are seeing two completely different things and the two viewpoints are mutually exclusive. 

I knew few would read that long  post   I was asking Him why I even felt led to write it.  I have to assume someone, somewhere at some time will derive some benefit from it. 

You  zeroed in on the very least relevant part of that whole thing and brought  it up as if that were the main point?      I dunno why  but  it's pretty obvious to me we're still talking past each other and no real communication is happening at all.

I trust  it's all in His  hands.

We are seeing two completely different things and the two viewpoints are mutually exclusive.   So..let's discuss verse by verse. Let the WORD decide!

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Then rest of the Just (those who live and are alive during the Mill, both of Israel and not of Israel will partake in the First Resurrection at the end of the Mill.  Can we find a scripture for this? It makes sense that they must get a resurrection body sometime. 

Isa 19:25 - The Lord Almighty will bless them saying; Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.  Just some of the Just during the 1000 years.

Yet, many follow Satan at the end.  Rev 20:8 - They are like the sand on the seashore.  These go into the Second resurrection.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OldCoot]

On 3/14/2019 at 12:16 AM, R. Hartono said:

Matt 24:40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.

Some say the taken one is the picture of a wise virgin taken by the Bridegroom to escape the grief tribulation, this is logic.

Some say the taken one is judged for destruction, why would God need to take them for destruction as the whole earth is already set for destruction in the great tribulation ?

 

 

I would disagree with the highlighted assertion on two counts.

1.  Those taken are equated in the passage to those taken during the flood of Noah, which was those who were condemned in the flood.  That would mean those taken in Matthew 24 are condemned individuals not redeemed.

2) The Matthew 25 Parable of the Virgins is about the bridesmaids of the wedding.  If it refers to the redeemed, then we got a downgrade from Bride to Bridesmaids.  Not likely.   The Bride (redeemed) was removed at the beginning of the Tribulation period and the Groom and Bride are joined in the Chupah (wedding chamber) where the consummate the marriage and become one.  They then return later and that is when the wedding feast begins.

Both passages have an illusion to Ezekiel 20, speaking of the Hebrew people....

Ezekiel 20:37-38  “I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

The event is at the end of the tribulation period.  Those that made it thru will be judged on who will go into the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom to repopulate the earth.  Those that don't make the cut will be purged out and cast off.

Edited April 13, 2019 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

On 3/14/2019 at 12:16 AM, R. Hartono said:

Matt 24:40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.

Some say the taken one is the picture of a wise virgin taken by the Bridegroom to escape the grief tribulation, this is logic.

Some say the taken one is judged for destruction, why would God need to take them for destruction as the whole earth is already set for destruction in the great tribulation ?

 

 

It may well be the parable of the tares.

[seeking the lost]

On 3/16/2019 at 3:54 AM, R. Hartono said:

We know it already now by Paul's writing that the taken one is here :

1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

The time of this verse is at the end of the millennium.  Those who are alive and remain refers to those who have resisted the deception of the second death.  The dead in Christ are raised, this is the resurrection and is followed by the rapture.  There will no one be left behind at this time.  

[R. Hartono]

15 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The time of this verse is at the end of the millennium.  Those who are alive and remain refers to those who have resisted the deception of the second death.  The dead in Christ are raised, this is the resurrection and is followed by the rapture.  There will no one be left behind at this time.  

There will be no caughting up into the cloud at the end of millennium cause there will be a Great White Throne judgment and then new heaven and new earth.

[seeking the lost]

9 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

There will be no caughting up into the cloud at the end of millennium cause there will be a Great White Throne judgment and then new heaven and new earth.

It seems like that would be a good time to be caught up and changed in a twinkling of an eye.  This is the time that the dead in Christ are raised and therefore there is no other time that the catching away can happen.  This is the day of the Lord as described in 2 Peter 3:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This is the culmination of all things when all are raised and judged.  The sheep are are on the right and the goats on the left.  The books are opened and all are judged.  The earth is dissolved so it definitely is nice that those who are alive and remain will be caught up.  The purpose of the rapture or catching away is to take those who are alive and remain to a new heaven and the new earth.  So shall we ever be with the LORD.

[The Light]

The day of the Lord is 1000 years