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Diaste

Is Pre Wrath the Correct Position?

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There cannot exist multiple correct understandings of the 2nd Coming and the Gathering. 

Which is the correct understanding?

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16 minutes ago, Diaste said:

There cannot exist multiple correct understandings of the 2nd Coming and the Gathering. 

Which is the correct understanding?

The one that fits the sum of the word. "The sum of thy word is truth." Daniel is told to seal these things up until the time of the end and as we approach that day our understanding will increase. Apocolypsis is revealing hence Revelation, the closer to an object the clearer it becomes. I've heard pre-wrath referred to as intra-seal by those who don't hold to some of the beliefs of pre-wrath but the placement scripturally of the time of darkness, the night, correlating with the resurrection/rescue of believers being between the sixth and seventh seal is agreed upon. The more a believer follows the scriptural patterns and references, types and shadows this view does seem to fall more comfortably with the whole of the word. 

I was raised dispensational and it took prayer and some effort to get beyond approaching the text with a preconceived notion of what the scriptures say prophetically. But the scriptures do show us the very plain understanding of His coming. It's just to simple for some of us to believe and is disturbing to those of us who for our whole lives have read things differently. I know, I went thru it. 

But the timing isn't as important as understanding the seasons and being about the Fathers business. I notice so much of prophecy discussions are consumed by timing and timing placement when things like Lot calling the radical homosexuals brothers and him trying to shut the door on his own not working and the faithfulness of Rahab up until that day hanging a scarlet cord out her window. Personally, I have found more understanding in scripture about the time of the end concerning believers after seeing the pre-wrath perspective, or inta-seal, whichever is preferred. 

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We are told when once in scripture, and that is at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52. 

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I, like many others, have tried for years to map out an approximate timeline by discovering "certain hidden clues" that only needed to be found in scripture, but never came up with one that could satisfy with any form of confidence.  A lot of people spend many many years trying to unlock those "hidden clues" by continuing to cross reference scripture and past together timelines that satisfy them, but never fully convinced in their heart when deeply questioned, always finding certain questions themselves, when they are honest. Now, I just point to 1 Corinthians 15:58 and try to figure out what is meant by the last trumpet. 

Some say it will be the last trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets, which can be anytime in mid September to early October, depending on the year. 

Some say it is at the 7th Trumpet of Revelation since that is the last trumpet blown in Revelation where scripture tells us in Revelation 11:15 that the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of the Lord:

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Others say that the trumpet is a commandment of God, but that one fell away fast as there are many more commandments of God after the rapture happens.

Remember, the timing, if one feels they have discovered what has evaded many throughout the years, has to flow with all of scripture, not just a few verses and passages pulled out of scripture to support their eschatology theology.

In all honesty, the best statement of when the rapture will occur is to always be ready as we are told in Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

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Even though I think that, of the 3 principal schools of thought about the timing of the rapture (pre-trib, pre-wrath & post-trib), that prewrath is the closest to the timing of the rapture;  I believe that the debates themselves have detracted from the big picture that is painted in the 3 accounts of the Olivet Discourse found in the synoptic gospels.  

Mark was written first,  probably just prior to the destruction of the temple.   I think that we overlook the fact that Matthew and Luke were probably written 20-25 years later,  to be followed by the gospel of John.   The writing of Matthew & Luke sometime after 70 AD speaks loudly to the importance of what they (2) wrote in the O.D.   If the AoD and the destruction of Jerusalem were in fact,  past events at the time of their writing (and they were), they did not write their gospels with a post-mortem  viewpoint.   Both Matthew & Luke add clarity to what Mark wrote,  especially concerning the last days. 

Concerning the O.D.  they (3) all give a listing of "signs" that will take place before the end comes.   I think that Luke's travels with Paul had a great influence on what Luke wrote.   But it's what is different in the comparisons of Luke with the other 2 writers,  that should shed light on our understanding of these things.   But this is my point.   At the end of Luke's account,  we find that  HE excluded the part about gathering the elect from the 4 winds found in Matt & Mark.   But he includes something that is not included in the other two.   What is that?  It's about the coming of the kingdom of God. Let me start with the following. 

*[[Luk 17:20]] KJV* And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Jesus replied and said, 

Verse list:    
Luk 17:22-24 KJV    And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Do you see how this parallels what Matthew & Mark says?   This is not something that precedes the great tribulation,  but it comes after it has started.   I think that the point is that the kingdom of God shall come, but without the visible presence of Jesus... desiring to see one of his days.   So now look at what Luke says in his account of the O.D.,

*[[Luk 21:31]] KJV* So likewise ye, when ye SEE these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is NIGH at HAND.

We're getting back to what Luke left out... The gathering of the elect begins.   This is when the kingdom of God shall begin.   But look at what Matthew & Mark included that Luke did not...

*[[Mat 24:42]] KJV* Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

*[[Mar 13:32]] KJV* But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

It is not the simultaneous arrival of Jesus with the kingdom that no man knows,  but it the arrival of the kingdom WITHOUT the Son (in tow)  that comes without observation.   No man knows that day and hour because the kingdom arrives before the Son does.   

We are not talking about the coming of the Son at the rapture,  but the coming of the kingdom.   What we have essentially equated is that the gathering of the elect (Matt.,Mark)is the time in which the kingdom arrives unexpectedly.   We have put the 3 gospels on equal footing.   But now notice what all three gospels include as a "sign" of the coming kingdom.   "They", [and it is clear in all 3 accounts who 'they' are referring to, the tribes of Israel] shall see: 

Verse list:    
Mat 24:30 KJV    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Mar 13:26 KJV    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


Luk 21:27 KJV    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

All 3 gospels include this sign as a sign that precedes the arrival of the kingdom WHEN the elect are gathered from the 4 corners of the earth.   And from Matthew's gospel we find that it begins with the sound of the great trumpet.   Paul and John clarifies that the inheritance of the Kingdom comes at the 7th and Last trumpet, 

Verse list:    
1Co 15:50-52 KJV    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Rev 11:15-18 KJV    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Though I have not pinpointed the specific time of the rapture,  surely it can be seen that it takes place just before the great trumpet sounds as the last sign  seen [when the children of Israel see that coming of Jesus in the clouds with great power and glory. ]

Verse list:    
1Th 4:16-17 KJV    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Blessings

The PuP 

Edited by Da Puppers
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Posted (edited)

Pre wrath has weaknesses so no I do not think it is correct. 

One weakness of the pre-wrath rapture position is its presumption that the “elect” mentioned in Matthew 24:22, 31 are church-age saints. These saints could just as easily be individuals saved during the seven-year tribulation; in fact, Jesus tells those who flee the antichrist’s persecution to pray that their flight does not occur “on the Sabbath” (verse 20). Since the church is not under the Mosaic law and does not keep the Sabbath, Jesus’ words cannot be directed to the church.

Another flaw in the pre-wrath rapture theory is its teaching that the first seal judgments are not the wrath of God. Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Revelation 5:5; 6:1). No other man is found worthy to open them (5:3-4). It would seem, then, these are not man’s judgments, but God’s. The tribulation begins when Jesus opens the first seal, and from that point on, the wrath of God is meted out on a sinful world.

A final weakness of the pre-wrath rapture view is shared by the other theories: viz., the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized.
https://www.gotquestions.org/pre-wrath-rapture.html

Edited by missmuffet

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1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Even though I think that, of the 3 principal schools of thought about the timing of the rapture (pre-trib, pre-wrath & post-trib), that prewrath is the closest to the timing of the rapture;  I believe that the debates themselves have detracted from the big picture that is painted in the 3 accounts of the Olivet Discourse found in the synoptic gospels.  

Mark was written first,  probably just prior to the destruction of the temple.   I think that we overlook the fact that Matthew and Luke were probably written 20-25 years later,  to be followed by the gospel of John.   The writing of Matthew & Luke sometime after 70 AD speaks loudly to the importance of what they (2) wrote in the O.D.   If the AoD and the destruction of Jerusalem were in fact,  past events at the time of their writing (and they were), they did not write their gospels with a post-mortem  viewpoint.   Both Matthew & Luke add clarity to what Mark wrote,  especially concerning the last days. 

Concerning the O.D.  they (3) all give a listing of "signs" that will take place before the end comes.   I think that Luke's travels with Paul had a great influence on what Luke wrote.   But it's what is different in the comparisons of Luke with the other 2 writers,  that should shed light on our understanding of these things.   But this is my point.   At the end of Luke's account,  we find that  HE excluded the part about gathering the elect from the 4 winds found in Matt & Mark.   But he includes something that is not included in the other two.   What is that?  It's about the coming of the kingdom of God. Let me start with the following. 

*[[Luk 17:20]] KJV* And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Jesus replied and said, 

Verse list:    
Luk 17:22-24 KJV    And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Do you see how this parallels what Matthew & Mark says?   This is not something that precedes the great tribulation,  but it comes after it has started.   I think that the point is that the kingdom of God shall come, but without the visible presence of Jesus... desiring to see one of his days.   So now look at what Luke says in his account of the O.D.,

*[[Luk 21:31]] KJV* So likewise ye, when ye SEE these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is NIGH at HAND.

We're getting back to what Luke left out... The gathering of the elect begins.   This is when the kingdom of God shall begin.   But look at what Matthew & Mark included that Luke did not...

*[[Mat 24:42]] KJV* Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

*[[Mar 13:32]] KJV* But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

It is not the simultaneous arrival of Jesus with the kingdom that no man knows,  but it the arrival of the kingdom WITHOUT the Son (in tow)  that comes without observation.   No man knows that day and hour because the kingdom arrives before the Son does.   

We are not talking about the coming of the Son at the rapture,  but the coming of the kingdom.   What we have essentially equated is that the gathering of the elect (Matt.,Mark)is the time in which the kingdom arrives unexpectedly.   We have put the 3 gospels on equal footing.   But now notice what all three gospels include as a "sign" of the coming kingdom.   "They", [and it is clear in all 3 accounts who 'they' are referring to, the tribes of Israel] shall see: 

Verse list:    
Mat 24:30 KJV    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Mar 13:26 KJV    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


Luk 21:27 KJV    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

All 3 gospels include this sign as a sign that precedes the arrival of the kingdom WHEN the elect are gathered from the 4 corners of the earth.   And from Matthew's gospel we find that it begins with the sound of the great trumpet.   Paul and John clarifies that the inheritance of the Kingdom comes at the 7th and Last trumpet, 

Verse list:    
1Co 15:50-52 KJV    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Rev 11:15-18 KJV    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Though I have not pinpointed the specific time of the rapture,  surely it can be seen that it takes place just before the great trumpet sounds as the last sign  seen [when the children of Israel see that coming of Jesus in the clouds with great power and glory. ]

Verse list:    
1Th 4:16-17 KJV    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Blessings

The PuP 

 As I look further into the matter,  I find the following scriptures, in Joel, 

Verse list:    
Joe 2:1 KJV    Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the DAY of the LORD cometh, for it is NIGH at hand;


Joe 2:10-11 KJV    The earth shall quake BEFORE them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? [IT IS NEAR!]


Joe 2:30-32 KJV    And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, BLOOD, and FIRE , and PILLARS of SMOKE. The SUN shall be turned into DARKNESS, and the MOON into BLOOD, BEFORE the great and the terrible day of the LORD COME. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

All of these things that I quoted here are things that will come BEFORE the day of the Lord comes.  We find the signs of: 

1. Blood,

2.Fire,

3. Pillars of smoke,

4.Darkness of the sun, 

5.Moon turns blood red, 

6.We even find the tormenting horsemen, 

[Verse list:    
Joe 2:4-9 KJV    The appearance of them is as the appearance of HORSES; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.]

We find all of these things in the trumpets until finally the kingdom of God shall come at the 7th trumpet.   

Verse list:    
Rev 8:7-13 KJV    The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and FIRE mingled with BLOOD, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with FIRE was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became BLOOD; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the SUN was smitten, and the third part of the MOON, and the third part of the STARS; so as the third part of them was DARKENED, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Rev 9:1-6 KJV    And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there AROSE a SMOKE out of the pit, as the smoke OF a GREAT FURNACE; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they SHOULD NOT KILL them, but that they should be TORMENTED five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. 

And the shape of the locusts were like unto HORSES prepared for battle...

CAN WE NOT SEE THAT THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT COME BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES? 

 And that the blowing of the 7th trumpet is THAT DAY...The Day of the Lord?

*[[Rev 11:15]] KJV* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever...*[[Rev 11:18]] KJV* And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH is COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Can we not see that it is the kingdom of God that comes without warning and that it precedes the DOTL when his wrath shall come upon all the world? 

Another mistake that I have found myself making is to believe that the sudden destruction found in 1 Thess 5 IS NOT the DOTL, but is actually part of the events that precedes that day.   The destruction and that DOTL that FOLLOWS it, comes as a thief in the night.   

Verse list:    
1Th 5:1-3 KJV    But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape...

[6]   Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

What are we to be watching for? 

1.  The Jews?... everything in the Olivet Discourse plus the events found in the trumpets, and includes the rapture. 

2. The church?... everything in the Olivet Discourse that precedes the rapture WHEN THE SON OF MAN COMES WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY! 

Blessings

The PuP 

 

Edited by Da Puppers
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Yes. Pre-Wrath is the correct understanding. It is the only one that fulfills all of the prophecies without having to go through contortion acts to make things fit.

For anyone looking for a relatively short portrayal of the sequence of events in the End Times, I suggest this blog post:

 

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7 hours ago, Diaste said:

There cannot exist multiple correct understandings of the 2nd Coming and the Gathering. 

Which is the correct understanding?

This is one thing you have written that I can agree with 100%. Only one understand of the timing of the rapture can be correct.

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6 hours ago, OneLight said:

We are told when once in scripture, and that is at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52. 

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I, like many others, have tried for years to map out an approximate timeline by discovering "certain hidden clues" that only needed to be found in scripture, but never came up with one that could satisfy with any form of confidence.  A lot of people spend many many years trying to unlock those "hidden clues" by continuing to cross reference scripture and past together timelines that satisfy them, but never fully convinced in their heart when deeply questioned, always finding certain questions themselves, when they are honest. Now, I just point to 1 Corinthians 15:58 and try to figure out what is meant by the last trumpet. 

Some say it will be the last trumpet of the Feast of Trumpets, which can be anytime in mid September to early October, depending on the year. 

Some say it is at the 7th Trumpet of Revelation since that is the last trumpet blown in Revelation where scripture tells us in Revelation 11:15 that the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of the Lord:

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Others say that the trumpet is a commandment of God, but that one fell away fast as there are many more commandments of God after the rapture happens.

Remember, the timing, if one feels they have discovered what has evaded many throughout the years, has to flow with all of scripture, not just a few verses and passages pulled out of scripture to support their eschatology theology.

In all honesty, the best statement of when the rapture will occur is to always be ready as we are told in Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

I usually don't agree with you on much, but we are in agreement here: NO ONE KNOWS!  If Jesus don't know, how could anyone else think they know? It is not going to happen until the Father turns to the Son and says, GO GET MY CHURCH! IT IS TIME!

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Both posttrib and prewrath have to rearrange Revelation to make their theory fit. But prewrath must rearrange the entire book - a DRASTIC rearranging to make their theory fit - and it is all because Rosenthal and Van Kampen did not realize that the cosmic signs will be seen TWICE more: first as a sign for the coming Day of the Lord, then again 7 years later as the sign for His coming.  The sign of the DAY will be with a blood moon, and the sign for His coming will be total darkness.

So they conceived this crazy idea that the days of great tribulation come first, then the sign, at the 6th seal, and then His coming.  So they force the days of GT into the first 5 seals - which John shows us are church age events. The force the 6th seal to just before chapter 19, or chapter 19 right after the 6th seal. 

ANY such rearranging is proof positive that theory is wrong. The right theory will not require ANY rearranging of Revelation to make it fit. It will be a theory created FROM Revelation's chronology. 

WHAT theory then requires no modifications of Revelation? Let's see:

Paul's rapture just before the start of THE DAY, and His wrath - just a moment before the 6th seal. Then judgment starts immediately after the rapture in the form of Paul's sudden destruction - which will be the 6th seal earthquake. 

Then, perhaps 10 days later (the 10 days of awe) the 7th seal will be opened to start the 70th week.  The rapture then is both prewrath and pretrib.

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