Ancient saints shall be gathered with the church to heaven

[R. Hartono]

Some people assume when good people die they will go to heaven.

In heaven there is no separation between good people and bad people, as described in the story of Lazarus :

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.                  

Jesus actually tell us in this story of Lazarus that Abraham is not in heaven yet now, but he is in the paradise.

The same thing happen to the man crucified with Him who believe in Him :

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Gabriel told Daniel that he would die and rest and will receive his rewards in the end of days, Daniel is not yet in heaven now but he may rest in paradise :                

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.     

ALL THAT ARE IN GRAVES SHALL HEAR JESUS VOICE :

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

THE ANCIENT SAINTS AND THE EARLY CHURCH WILL RISE FIRST

1 Thes 4:15  According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

But the martyrs in the great tribulation they will appear under the Altar awaiting their fellow for a little time.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

Edited May 18, 2019 by R. Hartono

[Marilyn C]

50 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

, Daniel is not yet in heaven now but he may rest in paradise :                

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.                                   

      1 Thes 4:15  According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

But the martyrs in the great tribulation they will appear under the Altar.

    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

Hi R.Hartono,

Actually Daniel is in heaven at the moment -

`And what more can I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the PROPHETS....stopped the mouth of lions..` (Heb. 11: 32 & 33)

`...you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born, who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN made perfect, to Jesus..` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

So we see that the Old Testament saints are in the General Assembly in the angelic realm awaiting their inheritance.

As to the 1 Thess. 4: 15 - 17 that is for the Body of Christ which is a different group. We can see that those who have gone on before us are also in the General Assembly awaiting their inheritance.

Then there are the martyrs (in the trib) you mentioned and they will be in kept by the Lord awaiting their reward of serving in the millennium.

 

Marilyn.

[R. Hartono]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

`...you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born, who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN made perfect, to Jesus..` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

So we see that the Old Testament saints are in the General Assembly in the angelic realm awaiting their inheritance.

 

Paul said this to the LIVING Jewish christians who lived in Jerusalem at that time that they actually have received the promise of the heavenly Jerusalem, to be registered in heaven. Its not about the place of dwelling of the deceased saints.

Edited May 6, 2019 by R. Hartono

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Paul said this to the LIVING Jewish christians who lived in Jerusalem at that time that they actually have received the promise of the heavenly Jerusalem, to be registered in heaven. Its not about the place of dwelling of the deceased saints.

Hi R. Hartono,

We read of two groups there in the General Assembly awaiting their different rewards - the church of the first-born, and the spirits of just men (& women) the Old Testament saints.

Marilyn.

 

[R. Hartono]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi R. Hartono,

We read of two groups there in the General Assembly awaiting their different rewards - the church of the first-born, and the spirits of just men (& women) the Old Testament saints.

Marilyn.

 

Let me ask you is the word YOU in below verse indicating that Paul is speaking to the dead ?

Heb 12:22 ...YOU have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born, who are registered in heaven

[Marilyn C]

17 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Let me ask you is the word YOU in below verse indicating that Paul is speaking to the dead ?

Heb 12:22 ...YOU have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born, who are registered in heaven

Hi R.Hartono,

God`s word tells me that in the highest realm of God`s great kingdom, there is God the Father, Jesus, the angels, the Body of Christ, (asleep in Christ) & the spirits of the Old Testament saints, (just men & women). This gathering of people is called the General Assembly, and is of those who are in Christ or been made righteous looking forward to Christ. So not dead but alive in the Lord awaiting their inheritances.

Marilyn.

[Montana Marv]

There souls are in Heaven.

Eph 4:7-10 - "When He ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.... but what does ascended mean, except that he also descended to the lower earthly regions. He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.

As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Who are the captives that Christ led up into heaven?  Those in Paradise (bosom of Abraham) which was located in the heart of the earth and had a great gulf between it and Hades.  This ascension began at the Mt of Olives.  Paradise and those in it were lifted up into heaven at this time.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[missmuffet]

On 5/5/2019 at 11:29 PM, R. Hartono said:

Some people assume when good people die they will go to heaven.

In heaven there is no separation between good people and bad people, as described in the story of Lazarus :

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.                  

Jesus actually tell us in this story of Lazarus that Abraham is not in heaven yet now, but he is in the paradise.

The same thing happen to the man crucified with Him who believe in Him :

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Gabriel told Daniel that he would die and rest and will receive his rewards in the end of days, Daniel is not yet in heaven now but he may rest in paradise :                

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.     

THE ANCIENT SAINTS AND THE EARLY CHURCH WILL RISE FIRST

1 Thes 4:15  According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…

But the martyrs in the great tribulation they will appear under the Altar awaiting their fellow for a little time.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    

                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

I really do not understand what your reasoning is here. All those souls who are in heaven now are believers and they do not yet have their resurrected bodies. All the souls who are in Hades are not believers and they do not have resurrected bodies. They are not in the same place. I do not know if those in Hades can see those in heaven. Everything in the Bible is the truth. Parable or not there is a lot we can learn from the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man.  After Jesus's resurrection he went to paradise and He took those in Paradise to heaven. That is where they are right now. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by missmuffet

[R. Hartono]

On 5/8/2019 at 10:54 AM, Montana Marv said:

There souls are in Heaven.

Eph 4:7-10 - "When He ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men....

Who are the captives that Christ led up into heaven? 

 

The Church as Christ's Kingdom agent on earth will conquer and break the captivity of sins by the power of the Risen Christ and Paul wrote it as gave gifts to men (not gave heaven to soul).

Why would Jesus need to come down to earth to rapture them if they are already in heaven ?

Edited May 9, 2019 by R. Hartono

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

The Church as Christ's Kingdom agent on earth will conquer and break the captivity of sins by the power of the Risen Christ and Paul wrote it as gave gifts to men (not gave heaven to soul).

Why would Jesus need to come down to earth to rapture them if they are already in heaven ?

 

All the souls of the Ancient elect went into Paradise (Bosom of Abraham) upon their deaths.  No way to get to Heaven until the Sins of the World were taken care of.  The souls of these elect did not go to Heaven until Jesus Ascended.

The Rapture is for the Bride Only.  It is the reuniting of the Soul which is already in Heaven to their Body which is in the grave. Glorification.  Then immediately next those of the Bride who are still alive; their souls and bodies will become glorified as they rise to meet the Lord in the Air.  Our bodies will be like Christs body.  The Bride is One Unit.  So they go together.

Some time later the souls of the Ancient elect and those of Israel will be reunited with their bodies from the grave and their bodies will become glorified.  The glorified Body is an eternal body.

In Christ

Montana Marv