Discrimination Against Gays - What Would You Base That On?

[frienduff thaylorde]

35 minutes ago, Cletus said:

and this is where your perspective is a tad off.  its not victimizing anyone, but rather pointing to a standard, Gods standard.  regardless of a victim or not, both are against God's standard. 

if you reach over and pull the patch off your sleeve that says "feelings" you will be a lot better for it. 

 

edit: and by the way, your bias is still sowing due to you not citing a source where someone whos homosexual being asked to leave a church... with explaination on why.  you have not cited a source yet. 

Thomas may as well be reading from that manuel .    Man his speech is identical .   I am telling us all ,  IF we allow this to become the victim  card .   WE LOSE .

I flat out don't care if the world hates me and many in churches too  ,  I will not cease to debate by the SPIRIT using ONLY SOUND DOCTRINE from that BIBLE .

If we don't make a stand now ,  the house falls .     Try and imagine JESUS reasoning like Thomas and McLaren.

WHEN on earth DID JESUS pander to men .    HE never once did .  He spoke truth and if it offended ,    it offended .

Here is one example .    LORD ,   LORD ,  did you not know this saying offended them .     LEAVE THEM BE , JESUS SAYS ,   they are the BLIND leading the blind

Every plant that MY Father has not planted shall be rooted UP .

Now notice what JESUS Did not do .    OH ,  man did we offend them ,    OH hurry and get them back and lets tone down the rhetoric ,  lets realize they VICTIMS

or lets .............RIGHT .      and paul and none of the others pandered to this victim card either .     I aint doing it ,   ANd I know the cost ,  it will cause me

in time to be only really hated more and more and even our lives .    So be it.    I GOT ALL HOPE   How bout YOU CLETUS .   WE GOT ALL HOPE .   Let the world come against us

if we die we die and if we live we live , ONLY LET THE LORD BE HONORED above all and may souls repent and be saved .  

[frienduff thaylorde]

I notice Thomas finds thing shouty .      HEY Thomas ,     LET all that has breath SHOUT FROM the ROOFTOPS what Christ has revealed to them in secrete .

As I said ,    I don't pander to this idea that many have , that we must debate men as they seem fit to be debated .    Its not working Thomas . 

How bout we all start over IN ONLY the BIBLE .      

IF you want to debate,  LETS do it THROUGH the BIBLE ,  not mens wisdom .  BUT GODS ETERNAL TRUTH .      OH wait ,    I think you know you cant win that way .

I truly think you already KNOW you cannot win this debate BY the BIBLE , so you are setting the terms by mens wisdom .    I aint falling for it .    ITS the bible only my friend .  

[frienduff thaylorde]

If the church debates through mens wisdom ,   WE LOSE .     That is a fact .

But if we debate by the SPIRIT and the BIBLE  its truly the only hope to correct one .

The church fell for this don't debate through your bible and religion , but through secular means .   AND IT LOST my friends .  MEN that do this LOST .

We must stand on GODS eternal truth , ON CHRIST and debate as HE gives us the words and by the BIBLE which contains HIS eternal truth .

What do you think Thomas .  HOW about we simply debate this THROUGH the BIBLE ONLY .     I mean we all CLAIM to be christain ,  SO Lets debate this THROUGH the BIBLE ONLY .

 

[simplejeff]

1 hour ago, thomas t said:

My point is nondiscrimination, very biblical. I'm talking about giving up having favorites which is discriminating against the rest.

No.    Not biblical (your posts).   

Having favorites is as old as Adam and Chavah.       You have never shown that that is wrong in the Bible,  no,  not at all. 

So your whole premise is faulty,  and nothing can come after that,  not in the sense of being right nor building on it.

[simplejeff]

On 5/29/2019 at 2:32 AM, thomas t said:

In my view, sexuality is part of the identity of a person. It belongs to them. Asking them to leave just for entertaining a same sex relationship would mean condemning the person - not the act, I think.

GOOD !   (went to the op to check something)

 

YES, ACCORDING TO ALL GOD'S WORD, and HIS PLAN and HIS PURPOSE,  the person IS CONDEMNED.    Thank you.

[simplejeff]

On 5/29/2019 at 2:32 AM, thomas t said:

Let's discuss discrimination at churches.

Why ?   It happens EVERY DAY.    So what ?   Do you think APPROVING OF PERSONS that GOD CONDEMNS  will change that !?

[Billiards Ball]

1 hour ago, thomas t said:

Because they don't call it "sin", they go on to call homosexuality "perversion". I found that shouty. They call gays perverts, see some posts above this one.

It looked like you did:

[bolded mine]. It really appeared to me as you would draw the comparison between being gay and molesting a child.

So now you say, you don't. So what is it you're talking about when you write...

What are the offenses you're talking about?

 

My point is nondiscrimination, very biblical. I'm talking about giving up having favorites which is discriminating against the rest.

you can do what you but please respect other peoples personality. Don't try to change them.

----

I don't understand.

back it up please.

 

 

You agreed with the rest of my post? You only had two points of discord? That's wonderful.

1) In the USA, teen advocates, social workers, school workers, etc. are encouraged to have young people who think they're gay or are gay to tell their parents, to "come out of the closet", and if their parents object, to stand up for their rights to the point of hostility. This dishonors and destroys families. Obviously, parents and children need to show love in these and other situations, but what can we expect from secular "wisdom", the kind of "wisdom" that gave us the Kinsey documents and destroyed most of godly human sexuality in the USA?

2) When scientists and secular magazines in the USA say "they think they may have found a gay gene," it is the same genetics as "the adultery gene", that is, genetic predispositions toward extra hormones in people that make them more libidinous. More libidinous people tend toward adultery, which makes logical sense. The Bible says lust can also spill over into homosexual behavior. As always, the Bible is 100% correct--witness the many men who only perform homosexual activity while imprisoned. There is a heritable tendency toward adultery and homosexuality--hormones that are increased to produce increased libido, but there is no "gay gene" or "adultery gene", which gene would also logically eliminate guilt on behalf of the sinner. There is no "gay gene" since identical twins sometimes include one gay twin and one straight twin, etc.

[thomas t]

Hi Frienduff,

I looked Brian McLaren up on facebook. He is "progressive Christians". I don't have anything to do with that.

No, I said I never read that manual brought up by Cletus, so it's not "my" manual.

15 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

I truly think you already KNOW you cannot win this debate BY the BIBLE , so you are setting the terms by mens wisdom .

as I said, non-partiality IS Biblical.

15 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

HOW about we simply debate this THROUGH the BIBLE ONLY .     I mean we all CLAIM to be christain ,  SO Lets debate this THROUGH the BIBLE ONLY .

Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth? - John 7:51.

So before you call all lebians rapists... hear them before. And hear them all. Listen to them carefully Don't victimize. Wrong accusations are the way Jesus was treated.

See also Lev 19:16 for wrong accusations in general. According to wikipedia, in some countries Lebians *get* raped - for correction.

---

Hi Alan,

15 hours ago, OneLight said:

Would you prefer they say those who commit such sin have a debased mind, which is scriptural?  Would that settle better with you?

EDIT If that's what you call all people that you think commit sins, then yes! This would settle better.

15 hours ago, OneLight said:

I brought in the fact that those who are personally affected by such sin are being asked by you to overlook their past and not have any concern with the sin at all. 

 

I didn't understand this. No, I'm not asking them to overlook their past and their way of dealing with what you call sin, here.

15 hours ago, OneLight said:

Jesus told her to "go and sin no more".  Would you say that to one who is homosexual? 

First of all, Jesus told her so in silence. He didn't shout his sentence from the roof tops. Secondly, all the rest present there before... had to agree: we are sinners, too.

Last but not least, I would not call homosexuality sin, since I'm neutral. I went through this case scenario in theory... and I concluded that, if it were to be sin, my discussion partner must have heard this view a 1000 times anyways. No need for me to add my voice anyways. I hope this answers this, too:

15 hours ago, OneLight said:

Which do you see as more loving to a sinner?

 

---

Hi BB,

14 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

You agreed with the rest of my post? You only had two points of discord? That's wonderful.

sometimes, I just don't have the knowledge to refute you .

Can you back up all assertions you made in your point no. 2 by using scientific sources, please? "The other day I read something but I can't find now, but this is what my experience confirms" is not a scientific source, btw.

EDIT: in your No. 1 point you said "In the USA, teen advocates, social workers, school workers, etc. are encouraged to have young people who think they're gay or are gay to tell their parents, to "come out of the closet", and if their parents object, to stand up for their rights to the point of hostility. This dishonors and destroys families." Coming out as destruction. I disagree. Parents should refrain from wanting to determine the sexual orientation of their children.

Thomas

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by thomas t
see EDIT (2*)

[Billiards Ball]

Here is more on applying Matthew 18: from a friend's daily newsletter...

"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Matthew 18:15-17

Jesus desires His church to be united in love, but many churches today are hopelessly divided, filled with bitterness, gossip, and unreconciled relationships. Applying today's verse could change all that. The solutions are really simple although they are not easy. If you see your brother sin, you go talk to him about it. Pretty simple, isn't it? You don't talk to others about it (that's gossip). You don't just ignore it (that's apathy). You talk to the person who committed the sin. How should I do this? Since these are often difficult conversations, I suggest you first talk to God. Ask Him for wisdom to choose the right words and the courage to approach your brother. Next, make sure your motive is one of love; you're not a critical fault-finder and you're not to attack the person. Rather you're trying to help him be a better follower of Jesus. Finally, approach him in private; your goal isn't to humiliate him in front of others. Your goal is to "win your brother" and you'll know you've done that if he sincerely listens to you. What should you say? Often you need to begin by establishing the facts. A good way to do this is by asking good questions. For instance, "It's come to my attention that you __________. Did you say that?" or "Did you do that?"  Once the fact of what was said or done is established, ask "Do you realize that's wrong?" or "Do you think you should have done that?" As the conversation goes on, there certainly is a place to straightforwardly say, "What you said/did was wrong. You really need to confess that to God and make things right with the people you've offended." Hopefully, exposing his sin and challenging him on it will lead to repentance and reconciliation. What if it doesn't? Then you come back to him a second time bringing one or two more believers with you. Make sure these people are mature and respected believers. They are there to establish that he really did do what you claim he did, agree or disagree that it really was a sin, and if it was, to bring appropriate pressure upon the person to repent.  Suppose he won't listen to them? At that point, you increase the pressure by telling the church and asking the entire church body to unite in urging him to repent. And should he not even listen to the entire church, then he has so dishonored the Lord and is living in such unrepentant sin that the entire church is to refuse fellowship with him. Obviously, this entire process is a pretty heavy discipline. No one should let it get this far without involving wise and mature people in the repentance/reconciliation process -- hopefully by step two. But the gravity of this whole process illustrates how important it is to Jesus that His church maintain and protect its love and unity. A church divided is a church defeated. A church filled with bitter, unforgiving people who gossip about one another is impotent in the things of God. Unity brings power. It takes work to preserve God-given unity, but its certainly worth the effort to do so.

[Billiards Ball]

4 hours ago, thomas t said:

Hi BB,

sometimes, I just don't have the knowledge to refute you .

Can you back up all assertions you made in your point no. 2 by using scientific sources, please? "The other day I read something but I can't find now, but this is what my experience confirms" is not a scientific source, btw.

EDIT: in your No. 1 point you said "In the USA, teen advocates, social workers, school workers, etc. are encouraged to have young people who think they're gay or are gay to tell their parents, to "come out of the closet", and if their parents object, to stand up for their rights to the point of hostility. This dishonors and destroys families." Coming out as destruction. I disagree. Parents should refrain from wanting to determine the sexual orientation of their children.

Thomas

 

Hi Thomas,

So you don't want to do as I do, learn from one another? You simply want to argue with me, refute me?

I didn't bring up "parents should refrain from wanting to determine sexual orientation", I said "counselors are telling young people be hostile, aggressive, reject their parents," which is horrible, terrible, evil, destructive. And your response shows you neither give credence nor wish to investigate further all I've said regarding possible orientation changes.

You can Google "sexual imprinting in the animal kingdom", "heritable versus inheritable traits", and etc. to find white papers and scientific surveys backing what I'm asserting, but WCF is the wrong forum to say, "Science trumps all". It doesn't, modern science is wrong on some all-important areas, including "gays are born gay".