The True Vine and Abiding

[GandalfTheWise]

On 7/6/2019 at 2:06 PM, JustPassingThru said:

Yes folks that's correct, ...in English grammar.

But, Jesus was speaking in Greek and the verb in the Greek  grammar is present active indicative , now my High School grammar is really fuzzy, so correct me if I'm wrong, but...

present means,  ...it's happening now

active means, ...the verb's subject is doing the action

indicative means, ...it's reality

So, whenever I read a verb in the King James ending in eth, ...which comforts me the most, ...knowing the grammatical person of the verb, ...or knowing, even though it's been written 2,000 years ago it's alive and active in my life today?

The challenge is the -eth endings in the KJV are not consistently translated from present active indicative (PAI) verbs in Greek and do not always carry an emphasis of continuity.    Sometimes -eth is translated from present participles.  Sometimes PAI verbs are not translated with -eth.   It also precludes the continuous meaning from being applied to 3rd person plural subjects (he singeth but always they sing and never they singeth) since it only applies to 3rd person singular.  In addition, the present active indicative verbs in Greek have multiple uses.  Depending on the intermediate or advanced Greek grammar one consults, there are about a dozen different uses of the present tense in Greek only some of which incorporate a "continually" meaning.

There are some places where -eth does translate a 3rd person singular PAI Greek verb which does carry a sense of ongoing and continuous action.  However it is NOT a general rule that can simply be applied every time an -eth word is read.

As I was doing my reading in Matthew today, I had this post in mind so I was using my 8 parallel text NT and was comparing the Greek with the KJV looking for -eth words.  

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. (Matt 6:11 KJV)  This is PAI (present active indicative) in Greek and illustrates one of its uses in historical narratives.  This represents an event with a definite time limitation.  It could not be understood as "the devil continually left him" since it is a summary of an event that occurred and was done with.  Verse 4:5 is similar with two PAI (translated -eth) describing finished events.

19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.   20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him. (Matt 6:19-20)  This is another PAI translated with an eth word (sayeth->saith) which cannot carry a meaning of continually said to them because it is a historical event with a definite ending.

One common use of PAI verbs in Greek is within historical narratives where action and events are told in a combination of summarized and expanded events.

In Matthew 5 in the sermon on the mount, there are inconsistencies.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee... (part of Matt 5:30 KJV)  This is a 3rd person PAI that does not include -eth for some reason.

42 Give to him that asketh thee...  (part of Matt 5:42 KJV) This is from a present participle and not an indicative verb.

There are other such examples of inconsistencies between KJV -eth words and various Greek verbs and continuous aspects of the verb usage.  This is only in a couple chapters in one book. 

Over the years, I've run across many Christians who learned erroneous things about Greek in sermons, articles, books, and other places.  Sadly, it seems that many graduates of seminaries and Bible schools who've taken a year or two of Greek (and have never read the entire NT in Greek because they lack the practical skills) take random statements from Greek grammar books that they do not understand very well, put them into a teaching or sermon to make a point, and then someone repeats some variation of that as fact and so on.

Somewhere, someone, for some reason (that made sense to them at the time) started the incorrect idea that -eth words are something special the KJV translators used to specially signify continuous action.  This is basically the Christian equivalent of an urban legend that pops up in random places and gets passed on.  It keeps going because few people have the background to question it.

I think the article quoted in the OP has some neat insights in it regarding actual grape harvesting and how God works in our individual lives.  The inclusion of things like KJV -eth words and a very conjectural translation of Greek (at odds with dozens of widely accepted translation teams) distracts away from this.

[Fran C]

13 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

The challenge is the -eth endings in the KJV are not consistently translated from present active indicative (PAI) verbs in Greek and do not always carry an emphasis of continuity.    Sometimes -eth is translated from present participles.  Sometimes PAI verbs are not translated with -eth.   It also precludes the continuous meaning from being applied to 3rd person plural subjects (he singeth but always they sing and never they singeth) since it only applies to 3rd person singular.  In addition, the present active indicative verbs in Greek have multiple uses.  Depending on the intermediate or advanced Greek grammar one consults, there are about a dozen different uses of the present tense in Greek only some of which incorporate a "continually" meaning.

There are some places where -eth does translate a 3rd person singular PAI Greek verb which does carry a sense of ongoing and continuous action.  However it is NOT a general rule that can simply be applied every time an -eth word is read.

As I was doing my reading in Matthew today, I had this post in mind so I was using my 8 parallel text NT and was comparing the Greek with the KJV looking for -eth words.  

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. (Matt 6:11 KJV)  This is PAI (present active indicative) in Greek and illustrates one of its uses in historical narratives.  This represents an event with a definite time limitation.  It could not be understood as "the devil continually left him" since it is a summary of an event that occurred and was done with.  Verse 4:5 is similar with two PAI (translated -eth) describing finished events.

19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.   20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him. (Matt 6:19-20)  This is another PAI translated with an eth word (sayeth->saith) which cannot carry a meaning of continually said to them because it is a historical event with a definite ending.

One common use of PAI verbs in Greek is within historical narratives where action and events are told in a combination of summarized and expanded events.

In Matthew 5 in the sermon on the mount, there are inconsistencies.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee... (part of Matt 5:30 KJV)  This is a 3rd person PAI that does not include -eth for some reason.

42 Give to him that asketh thee...  (part of Matt 5:42 KJV) This is from a present participle and not an indicative verb.

There are other such examples of inconsistencies between KJV -eth words and various Greek verbs and continuous aspects of the verb usage.  This is only in a couple chapters in one book. 

Over the years, I've run across many Christians who learned erroneous things about Greek in sermons, articles, books, and other places.  Sadly, it seems that many graduates of seminaries and Bible schools who've taken a year or two of Greek (and have never read the entire NT in Greek because they lack the practical skills) take random statements from Greek grammar books that they do not understand very well, put them into a teaching or sermon to make a point, and then someone repeats some variation of that as fact and so on.

Somewhere, someone, for some reason (that made sense to them at the time) started the incorrect idea that -eth words are something special the KJV translators used to specially signify continuous action.  This is basically the Christian equivalent of an urban legend that pops up in random places and gets passed on.  It keeps going because few people have the background to question it.

I think the article quoted in the OP has some neat insights in it regarding actual grape harvesting and how God works in our individual lives.  The inclusion of things like KJV -eth words and a very conjectural translation of Greek (at odds with dozens of widely accepted translation teams) distracts away from this.

Seems like you know your greek.

I agree with what you've said regarding the KJ.  It's not the best bible as far as I'm concerned for a couple of reasons.

Also, some keep talking about the aorist tense to prove that one is saved forever, no matter what.  So I went to my friendly Greek scholar (a priest that taught theology and Greek and Hebrew and reads the O.T. and the N.T. in those language) and he said it's complicated and to forget about it.  He said it cannot be used to show progressive belief,,,belief is always in the present tense.  Like for instance John 3:16...he who believes NOW.

I also feel that the persons that translated the N.T. are competent persons that also know the culture and time of Jesus and we could trust that they did a good job of relaying the message WITHOUT having to know Greek.

I believe that using the Greek is for experts and biblical scholars and not us here on these boards.

[simplejeff]

9 hours ago, Fran C said:

Seems like you know your greek.

I agree with what you've said regarding the KJ.  It's not the best bible as far as I'm concerned for a couple of reasons.

Also, some keep talking about the aorist tense to prove that one is saved forever, no matter what.  So I went to my friendly Greek scholar (a priest that taught theology and Greek and Hebrew and reads the O.T. and the N.T. in those language) and he said it's complicated and to forget about it.  He said it cannot be used to show progressive belief,,,belief is always in the present tense.  Like for instance John 3:16...he who believes NOW.

I also feel that the persons that translated the N.T. are competent persons that also know the culture and time of Jesus and we could trust that they did a good job of relaying the message WITHOUT having to know Greek.

I believe that using the Greek is for experts and biblical scholars and not us here on these boards.

God reveals the truth to those who seek the truth and who keep seeking the truth (don't seek today and stop tomorrow).

The 'knowledge' of religious teachers is most often used to deceive multitudes,  from what the Word of God says .

The salvation and faith of those who trust and rely on the Father,  is a daily , continual experience,  not a one time does it fact,  as shown all through Scripture,  TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT

even just in poor ol' "English" language.  

Follow Jesus.   Follow the Shepherd.  

What happens if someone stops following Jesus ?   Repent.  

What happens if a sheep stops following the Shepherd ?  Hope it doesn't end in destruction,  eaten by the wolves or worse.

A lost sheep?  Jesus goes after.  He is a good Shepherd, perfect in fact.

 

[simplejeff]

On 7/8/2019 at 1:56 PM, Fran C said:

Jesus will declare to them:

"I never knew your, depart from me YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."

There's no need to wonder what Jesus meant.

He said we're to do the will of the Father and He said those that practice lawlessness will not enter into heaven.

Amen.

Who is the lawless one (in the Apocalypse) ?   (the devil) -

The one who always rejects TORAH,  is far from TORAH.  (as written)

[Fran C]

1 hour ago, simplejeff said:

God reveals the truth to those who seek the truth and who keep seeking the truth (don't seek today and stop tomorrow).

The 'knowledge' of religious teachers is most often used to deceive multitudes,  from what the Word of God says .

The salvation and faith of those who trust and rely on the Father,  is a daily , continual experience,  not a one time does it fact,  as shown all through Scripture,  TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT

even just in poor ol' "English" language.  

Follow Jesus.   Follow the Shepherd.  

What happens if someone stops following Jesus ?   Repent.  

What happens if a sheep stops following the Shepherd ?  Hope it doesn't end in destruction,  eaten by the wolves or worse.

A lost sheep?  Jesus goes after.  He is a good Shepherd, perfect in fact.

 

Agreed on all.

And said in  a very unique way!

[Susan Hayes]

So bearing good fruit is related to being in a lawful state?

[JustPassingThru]

2 hours ago, Susan Hayes said:

So bearing good fruit is

Hey Susan, welcome to Worthy, ...bearing good fruit is accomplishing the things Father has for us to do for Him as we walk in faith, being guided and directed by the Holy Spirit.

Father knew us in His mind before He created anything, He knew everything we would think, say and do, so when we are born again we become His child and He has work planned for us to do for Him. 

The Holy Spirit writing through Paul explains it like this:

...being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will, Eph 1:11b

Lord bless

[simplejeff]

14 hours ago, Susan Hayes said:

So bearing good fruit is related to being in a lawful state?

If someone is opposed to TORAH,   they are with the enemy, as written in the Apocalypse (Revelation).