Apologetics 101

[Guest AsiD_ReiGN@yahoo.com]

I'm hesitant to step out on such a very large limb here, but I beleive something has to be said. Not everyone is going to like what I've got to say, some of you may not agree with it, but its going to be said none the less. What I'm about to say isn't intended with a malicious heart, but rather with all due respect to my peers. Remember, I am speaking to you as a brother counciling brother, not as hypocrite to man.

When used directly, the Bible isn't always a useful tool where Apologetics is concerned.

Hold it! Don't bite my head off just yet. Listen to what I've got to say before the stones start flying! Hear me out, and hopefully I'll make a little more sense.

Put yourself again into the shoes of an unbeleiver. Not even necessarily an Athiest either, just someone who is searching and hasn't yet come to know Christ. This might be very difficult for some, less difficult for others. Consider where they stand.

1) There is an infinite sea of possibility in the world. From the appearance of things, "Truth" is an abstract concept, relative to the person and his perspective. 2) There are a myraid of people out there claiming to know the Truth. Some say Jesus is Lord. Some say its Allah, or Budda, or Mohamad, or there are many Gods, or that we ourselves are Gods, or that humanity is an emergent God, or that the Earth itself is God-like, etc. Christianity is just one of many on the market. Every one of those religions has its own book, its own texts, and its own ideas.

3) The common perception of any religion is that nobody practices what they preach. Nobody has a walk that matches their talk. The evidence doesn't support the claims.

I've been reading over these forums for the past few days, and it seems to me like the majority of the answers to the most difficult questions people have is: "Trust Jesus, repent your sins, and everything will work out right in the end." Undoubtedly thats true! But come now folks, thats the dumbed-down Sunday School version of an answer. Those who truly SEEK truth are looking for something that will satisfy.

Or for another matter, constantly I see the Bible referenced to answer specific questions unbelievers have, in regards to accepting the Faith. If you beleive in the Bible this makes perfect sense. But the authority of the Bible is conditional to the reader/subject, only in-so-much if they beleive in it. You propose a circular argument there.

Question: How do I know if God exists?

Answer: Because the Bible is his Holy Word and everything within it is true. Why, here it says...

Question: Okay, why should I trust the Bible?

Answer: Well, because God breathed the Holy Spirit into man and caused him to bring it into being.

Question: Okay, so why should I beleive in God?

Answer: Er... well, the Bible says...

And so things begin to fall apart.

You can see where a converstion like that would lead. Gensis says that in the beginning the Word was with God, that the Word IS God, and so on and so forth. While none of the answers our hypothetical answer-ee gave were incorrect, they lack FOUNDATION in which the questioner requires to accept the Word as Truth. Without it, the Bible is inadmissable as evidence to prove much of anything.

Does that mean that the Bible's teachings must be excluded from Apologetics? No, of course not. By all means, you SHOULD speak with authority the lessons of the Bible and what they have meant to you. But you cannot drown the Seeker with scripture verse and quotes, or barrate him with impairatives like Heaven or Hell unless he first has the INDICATIVE, which is beleive in scripture itself.

My approach so far has been to warm most people up to the idea of God not by bringing in the Bible directly, but pursuing other issues that tie-in. Free Will, its possibilities, and the biblical evaluation of that. Let the seeker compare notes between the world he knows and the world God represents. It is healthy to wrestle, it is healthy to question, it is healthy to press. Did not Jacob wrestle with an Angel and come away blessed? If you invite someone to wrestle with God, only two things can result.

First, to wrestle some kind of relationship must develope for wrestling to begin. This is often the first fumbling step of a new beleiver. Secondly, he'll LOSE. Always, invariably, and without condition. Pitted in a wrestling match with God himself, who can claim to have walked away the winner?

Matthew 7: 7-8: "Ask and you shall receive. Seek and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened to you. For every man who asks shall receive; he who seeks shall find; and he who knocks, the door will be made open."

So next time you wrestle with a fellow beleiver, by all means site scripture and text to support your claims. But next time someone comes earnestly seeking of the Body of Christ (Us!), do not throw the Bible in his face. Dissuade him from looking at our "religion" as simply Saved and Unsaved, Heaven and Hell, Damnation or Salvation. Teach him the metaphysics, the philosophy, the theology, the theory, the life experiences, tell him your stories, WITNESS to him.

Without your Faith, your understanding of the Word, and your love behind it... to an unbeleiver, the Bible is just a fortune cookie too complicated to bother with.

-Justin-

[fenwar]

Hear, hear.

I often cringe when I see a simple question met by a lengthy string of Bible quotations and Christian jargon... it really turns people off.

I wish this board had the "we're not worthy" smiley... oh well. Have another

[mrs]

Makes a lot of sense. I agree - we should know how to answer the difficult questions without just a basic reply.

[Trust & Obey]

I agree that we have to be discerning about how and when to use the word. But, remember:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I have a hard time chatting without posting scripture.

[jc49]

I'm hesitant to step out on such a very large limb here, but I beleive something has to be said. Not everyone is going to like what I've got to say, some of you may not agree with it, but its going to be said none the less. What I'm about to say isn't intended with a malicious heart, but rather with all due respect to my peers. Remember, I am speaking to you as a brother counciling brother, not as hypocrite to man.

When used directly, the Bible isn't always a useful tool where Apologetics is concerned.

Hold it! Don't bite my head off just yet. Listen to what I've got to say before the stones start flying! Hear me out, and hopefully I'll make a little more sense.

Put yourself again into the shoes of an unbeleiver. Not even necessarily an Athiest either, just someone who is searching and hasn't yet come to know Christ. This might be very difficult for some, less difficult for others. Consider where they stand.

1) There is an infinite sea of possibility in the world. From the appearance of things, "Truth" is an abstract concept, relative to the person and his perspective. 2) There are a myraid of people out there claiming to know the Truth. Some say Jesus is Lord. Some say its Allah, or Budda, or Mohamad, or there are many Gods, or that we ourselves are Gods, or that humanity is an emergent God, or that the Earth itself is God-like, etc. Christianity is just one of many on the market. Every one of those religions has its own book, its own texts, and its own ideas.

3) The common perception of any religion is that nobody practices what they preach. Nobody has a walk that matches their talk. The evidence doesn't support the claims.

I've been reading over these forums for the past few days, and it seems to me like the majority of the answers to the most difficult questions people have is: "Trust Jesus, repent your sins, and everything will work out right in the end." Undoubtedly thats true! But come now folks, thats the dumbed-down Sunday School version of an answer. Those who truly SEEK truth are looking for something that will satisfy.

Or for another matter, constantly I see the Bible referenced to answer specific questions unbelievers have, in regards to accepting the Faith. If you beleive in the Bible this makes perfect sense. But the authority of the Bible is conditional to the reader/subject, only in-so-much if they beleive in it. You propose a circular argument there.

Question: How do I know if God exists?

Answer: Because the Bible is his Holy Word and everything within it is true. Why, here it says...

Question: Okay, why should I trust the Bible?

Answer: Well, because God breathed the Holy Spirit into man and caused him to bring it into being.

Question: Okay, so why should I beleive in God?

Answer: Er... well, the Bible says...

And so things begin to fall apart.

You can see where a converstion like that would lead. Gensis says that in the beginning the Word was with God, that the Word IS God, and so on and so forth. While none of the answers our hypothetical answer-ee gave were incorrect, they lack FOUNDATION in which the questioner requires to accept the Word as Truth. Without it, the Bible is inadmissable as evidence to prove much of anything.

Does that mean that the Bible's teachings must be excluded from Apologetics? No, of course not. By all means, you SHOULD speak with authority the lessons of the Bible and what they have meant to you. But you cannot drown the Seeker with scripture verse and quotes, or barrate him with impairatives like Heaven or Hell unless he first has the INDICATIVE, which is beleive in scripture itself.

My approach so far has been to warm most people up to the idea of God not by bringing in the Bible directly, but pursuing other issues that tie-in. Free Will, its possibilities, and the biblical evaluation of that. Let the seeker compare notes between the world he knows and the world God represents. It is healthy to wrestle, it is healthy to question, it is healthy to press. Did not Jacob wrestle with an Angel and come away blessed? If you invite someone to wrestle with God, only two things can result.

First, to wrestle some kind of relationship must develope for wrestling to begin. This is often the first fumbling step of a new beleiver. Secondly, he'll LOSE. Always, invariably, and without condition. Pitted in a wrestling match with God himself, who can claim to have walked away the winner?

Matthew 7: 7-8: "Ask and you shall receive. Seek and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened to you. For every man who asks shall receive; he who seeks shall find; and he who knocks, the door will be made open."

So next time you wrestle with a fellow beleiver, by all means site scripture and text to support your claims. But next time someone comes earnestly seeking of the Body of Christ (Us!), do not throw the Bible in his face. Dissuade him from looking at our "religion" as simply Saved and Unsaved, Heaven and Hell, Damnation or Salvation. Teach him the metaphysics, the philosophy, the theology, the theory, the life experiences, tell him your stories, WITNESS to him.

Without your Faith, your understanding of the Word, and your love behind it... to an unbeleiver, the Bible is just a fortune cookie too complicated to bother with.

-Justin-

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Justin......for some reason I am thinking of Jesus how wrong He was to quote the OT Scriptures to his unbelieving contemporaries....wow mate...I really think that Paul and Peter and John were wrong too....ok we are modern,we know beteer don't we with all our philosophical-psicological-logical-logical-jargon....and all this "methods" to approach and suavely "caress" the poor sinners...please don't tell them black or white,please don't scare them with this"hell" stuff...did you ever think for a moment that one of those "seeker" that come to this website may be dead 5 minutes later and if comes here a finds all this blah blah blah of nothing didn't even recieve a witness....how in the world do we dare THE POWER OF THE WORD and try to substitute it with our puny intellectual balh blah blah....Have we forgotten that THE HOLY SPIRIT uses THE WORD to convince the sinner?

Thats how I was saved and millions have been saved,because of THE SPIRIT and THE WORD mate!don't get offended because I have no intention to offend you nor anyone else but I' d rather tell "the seeker" that Jesus saves and that Hell is real and that the quickest they run to Christ the best than trying to venture in some never ending debate about the sex of the angels so to say ....sorry mate,thats how I see it...God bless you

[jc49]

I agree that we have to be discerning about how and when to use the word. But, remember:

Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I have a hard time chatting without posting scripture. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GREAT STUFF TRUST&OBEY MATE!!!GREAT STUFF!

[AgnosticFront84]

I'm hesitant to step out on such a very large limb here, but I beleive something has to be said. Not everyone .......the Bible is just a fortune cookie too complicated to bother with.

-Justin-

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Justin,

I am a non-believer and I wanted to commend you on your stance to christian witnessing/question answering. I have asked many christians many questions about the bible and have received the same, regurgitated responses they were indoctrined from their years of church services. Responses from the bible as accurate, empirical evidence to substantiate your "belief" doesn't mean anything to me. Ie., a question is posed....answer: "Cuz jesus said so in the bible." "Unicorns exist, cuz I say so." That means absolutely nothing. Why quote something as truth when it is all held in BELIEF? Would I quote the Q'uran or the Hindu Vedas to prove my point of belief to a christian? Absolutely not. You are on the right road, my friend. I hope to sometime soon engage in civil discourse with you

-Joe

[AgnosticFront84]

Hi Justin......for some reason I am thinking of Jesus how wrong He was to quote the OT Scriptures to his unbelieving contemporaries....wow mate...I really think that Paul and Peter and John were wrong too....ok we are modern,we know beteer don't we with all our philosophical-psicological-logical-logical-jargon....and all this "methods" to approach and suavely "caress" the poor sinners...please don't tell them black or white,please don't scare them with this"hell" stuff...did you ever think for a moment that one of those "seeker" that come to this website may be dead 5 minutes later and if comes here a finds all this blah blah blah of nothing didn't even recieve a witness....how in the world do we dare THE POWER OF THE WORD and try to substitute it with our puny intellectual balh blah blah....Have we forgotten that THE HOLY SPIRIT uses THE WORD to convince the sinner?

Thats how I was saved and millions have been saved,because of THE SPIRIT and THE WORD mate!don't get offended because I have no intention to offend you nor anyone else but I' d rather tell "the seeker" that Jesus saves and that Hell is real and that the quickest they run to Christ the best than trying to venture in some never ending debate about the sex of the angels so to say ....sorry mate,thats how I see it...God bless you

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pound the pulpit a bit more, will ya? I bet non-christians will be flocking to your feet to hear the "good news" with those aggressive witnessing tactics of yours...

[Guest shiloh357]

The reason so many do not like to hear the Bible is because it doesn't tell us what we want to hear.

The Bible tells us that we are sinners in need of a Savior. It tells that we are helpless apart from God to rid ourselves of sin. It tells us that the problem lies with us, and the answer to the problem lies with God Himself. As such, it strikes at the very heart of human nature, pride. It insults man's desire for enlightenment and self realization. It teaches that we need less self-realization and greater realization of the needs of others. Though the Bible is not offensive it does offend man's sense of self importance.

The Bible does not attempt to prove the existence of God. It simply makes the point that God exists, and goes from there. It does not offer us any means of proving the existence of God in any way.

The purpose of apologetics is not to prove the existence of God. Apologetics provides a means of showing that we as Christians have a reasoned and intelligent basis for our faith in God. It shows that our faith is not a blind trust, but has evidentiary support in history, archeology.

We are not called to convince the world that God exists, and that Jesus is the Son of God. That is not what God asks of us. He only asks that we deliver the message, and that we are able to answer the questions put to us. If someone does not want to hear what the Bible has to say, it is not because the Bible is the wrong tool to use, but it is the hardness of their hearts that rejects the Word of God.

The Bible is our source book. It is, in our eyes, the Truth of God laid out for man in plain language. It is up to each individual what they will do with Christ. We as Christians are not held accountable by the Lord for who accepts or rejects the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are only accountable for telling them.

[AgnosticFront84]

The reason so many do not like to hear the Bible is because it doesn't tell us what we want to hear.

Oh, is that the reason? Not my personal reason, but OK. I am assuming you are focusing on the negative points in the bible and not scripture excerpts such as John 3:16. Negative points including spending eternity in the pyrotechnic playground.

The Bible tells us that we are sinners in need of a Savior. It tells that we are helpless apart from God to rid ourselves of sin.  It tells us that the problem lies with us, and the answer to the problem lies with God Himself.  As such, it strikes at the very heart of human nature, pride.  It insults man's desire for enlightenment and self realization.  It teaches that we need less self-realization and greater realization of the needs of others.  Though the Bible is not offensive it does offend man's sense of self importance.

It also insults my intelligence to the use the brain that "God" gave me. To believe everything in the bible (including talking burning bushes, talking serpents, and living in the stomach of a fish for 3 days) would require me to put all common sense and logic on a shelf. As for the bible not being offensive, do you really want your kid reading filth such as (edit) [Ezekiel 23:30]

The Bible does not attempt to prove the existence of God.  It simply makes the point that God exists, and goes from there.  It does not offer us any means of proving the existence of God in any way.

God. Which god? The biblegod? OK. So you mean to tell me that because the Hindu Vedas state that Shiva and Ganesh are real gods, they are? Going in stream with your logic, this would also mean Zeus and all the Greek gods were real too. Just because they were put on paper doesn't make it true. Hence, the bible doesn't make a point that BibleGod factually exists.

The purpose of apologetics is not to prove the existence of God. Apologetics provides a means of showing that we as Christians have a reasoned and intelligent basis for our faith in God.  It shows that our faith is not a blind trust, but has evidentiary support in history, archeology, and even in logic. 

A reasoned and intelligent basis? How so? Of course it is a blind trust, and how can it be proved by history (Josephus documents, which has also been stated as fake), archeology (what, the shroud of turin??), and logic (logically we as humans don't want to believe that all our good doing on earth amounts to nothing after we die)?

We are not called to convince the world that God exists, and that Jesus is the Son of God.  That is not what God asks of us.  He only asks that we deliver the message, and that we are able to answer the questions put to us.  If someone does not want to hear what the Bible has to say, it is not because the Bible is the wrong tool to use, but it is the hardness of their hearts that rejects the Word of God. 

I somewhat agree with you. But, would you consider your heart hard just because you don't embrace the Book of Mormon, the Q'uran, or the Tipitaka?

The Bible is our source book.  It is, in our eyes, the Truth of God laid out for man in plain language.  It is up to each individual what they will do with Christ.  We as Christians are not held accountable by the Lord for who accepts or rejects the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  We are only accountable for telling them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you here

Edited June 18, 2005 by IslandRose