Who Is The Archangel Michael ?

[ShinyGospelShoes]

2 minutes ago, saved34 said:

Christ is not one of many princes

Thank you for your time.

[unworthyservant]

I just glanced through much of this discussion and it reminds me why I don't really care about how to properly describe Michael much less all the things that have arisen from it just as long as my Faith is in the One who died for MY sins and my life reflects it then God will reveal any of those things that He needs me to know. There's an old saying (I like old sayings) If you're rocking the boat, then you're sure making it hard on those who are trying to row! I don't like to rock the boat unless it's for something that might affect someone's Faith (or my own for that matter). Otherwise, I like to try and row as hard as I can.

[Justin Adams]

I read most of this and yes Michael is the one chosen to watch over Israel. See the Joshua account where the Godhead (all of them) and Michael are present.

I see some error. ha-Satan 'fell' as Yeshua described it. Also many beings fell with him (not one third either, that is a misdirect).

It is a still happening thing. Yet from Yeshua's point of view 'it is finished'. BUT NOT YET... God can see the end from the beginning, yet some is still to play our as is EVIDENT all around us today.

Demons are NOT fallen holy ones. They are disembodied bad spirits of dead Nephilim looking for a host. At the Beginnings of Yeshua's ministry on earth He cast our many demons. This proves to those observing WHO He is and His Godly Power over ALL SPIRITS. He refers to Psalm 82 to point out that it was Him that presided over the Council of God. I and the Father are One. Michael is one of the Chief Princes of the Heavenly Realm along with Gabriel and a few others.

It is not complicated. It is all in the scriptures for us but sadly the church is afraid generally of this stuff so cannot teach what they never learned. Thus we get weird cults trying to sidetrack us. Rather than just dismiss them we should understand where they are coming from and put their faulty ideas right. Be assured that the cults know your scriptures well, and probably far better than most believers that have either been fed faulty doctrines or not fed at all.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Justin Adams

[Walter and Deborah]

14 hours ago, ShinyGospelShoes said:

This statement is incorrect.  Lucifer/satan is an archangel, as is Gabriel when the texts are closely examined.

See the words [G757], 'archo'; [G746], 'arche', [G758], 'archon' all in connection with angels or celestial beings.  See:

Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Literally reading, the "angels which vacated their Arch offices".  When Lucifer fell, he took with him very many of the leading angels of heaven, since he knew that many lesser would follow them.

Satan is called the "prince of the power of the air" and the word used is "arch".

Even the godly Hymn writers understood this, such as Fanny Crosby, "Hail Him! Hail Him! highest archangels in glory ...", or from an another Hymn writer, "Then with archangels we shall sing High praise to heaven's eternal King ..."; and yet beyond the hymn writers, there are a multitude of Bible dictionaries, concordances, lexicons, commentaries that speak of the multiplicity of the office of "archangel".

 

 

Amen

[ShinyGospelShoes]

10 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Demons are NOT fallen holy ones. They are disembodied bad spirits of dead Nephilim looking for a host.

This is incorrect.  "devils", are fallen (once holy) angels (Rev. 12:8-9; Jude 1:6; Luke 10:18; 2 Peter 2:4; Matthew 12:24; Mark 3:22; Luke 11:15,18; Revelation 18:2; Matthew 25:41; John 8:44; 1 John 3:8; Revelation 12:9; Ezekiel 28:15-19) and as such are beings, with "celestial ... bodies" (1 Corinthians 15:40), with heavenly "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:38-39), rather than terrestrial (of this earth) and differing from the flesh of man-kind, being a differing kind, for they came from the worlds (Hebrews 1:2, 11:1; Isaiah 13:5; etc) above.  They are not 'disembodied', for that is pagan theology, even neo platonic.  Possession works by the devils not inhabiting the physical space of the body of mankind (hollywood garbage), but rather they take control of the mind/heart (John 13:2) through humans submitting themselves to them (as Eve), through which they then control the body, and as such the human becomes a channel, conduit, or medium to influence others.  This may be demonstrated also in some detail.

Nephilim are not 'dead looking for a host'.  Again, that is hollywood error.  The Bible says:

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6  Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecc 9:10  Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psa_146:4  His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

and so on.

The very “sons of God” who rule the unfallen worlds, as Adam [Luke 3:38], the first [1 Corinthians 15:45,46,47], on earth had [Genesis 1:26,28; Psalms 8:5] before his fall, and the angelic “morning stars”:

Job 1:6 - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 - Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding

Job 38:5 - Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 - Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 - When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Side note, none of these Job texts, in regards the “sons of God”, are dealing with the Genesis 6-9 account and are not referring to created heavenly beings. Job 1:6, 2:1 deals with the timeframe in a period well after the flood, and Job 38:4-7 deals with the timeframe long before the flood, when the earth was created. The only texts in Job which are dealing directly with the timeframe of the flood, are Job 22:15,16,17, 26:5, and please notice it speaks of “men”.  They (men) died in the flood and are buried beneath the earth and waves as per Job.

Isaiah 14:13 - For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Dualistic texts, for godly men [whose names written in heaven] and angelic beings [who physically are in/from heaven]:

Psalm 29:1 - [[A Psalm of David.]] Give unto the LORD, O ye mighty, give unto the LORD glory and strength.

Psalms 89:6 - For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?

For more on who the “sons of God” are in Genesis 6:2,4, please see Luke 3:38; Genesis 4:26, etc., and for the daughters of men, see Genesis 4:16-24.

See also the following for “sons”, “children”, “father” of the good, etc:

Genesis 6:2,4; Deuteronomy 14:1; 2 Samuel 7:14; Isaiah 8:18, 9:6, 63:16, 64:8; Hosea 1:10; Matthew 5:9,45 6:9; Luke 3:38, 6:35,36, 11:2, 20:26; John 1:12, 11:52, 12:36; Romans 1:7, 8:14,16,17,19,21, 9:8, 9:26 [citing Hosea 1:10]; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2, 6:18; Galatians 1:4, 3:26, 4:6,7; Ephesians 5:1; Philippians 1:2, 2:15, 4:20; Colossians 1:2; 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 3:11,13; 2 Thessalonians 1:1,2, 2:16; Titus 1:4; Philemon 1:3; Hebrews 2:10,13 [citing Isaiah 8:18], 12:7,9; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 1:3, 3:1,2, 5:2.

See also the following for the “sons”, “children”, “father” of the evil, etc.:

Genesis 3:15; Matthew 13:38; John 8:42,44; Acts 13:10; Romans 6:16, 9:8; Ephesians 2:2, 5:6; Colossians 3:6; Hebrews 12:8; 1 Peter 3:19 [compare to Psalms 142:7; Isaiah 42:6,7, 61:1; Luke 4:18], 3:20; 1 John 3:8,10,12, 4:4,5,6,7,8.

See the following for comparison with the Genesis 6:2,4 account:

See Abraham and Isaac in Genesis 24:3,37.

See Esau and Jacob in Genesis 26:34,35, 28:8,9 [comparing to Jacob in Genesis 27:46, 28:1,6], 36:2.

See Isaac and Jacob in Genesis 27:46, 28:1,6.

See Jacob and Hamor in Genesis 34:9,14.

See Moses in Exodus 34:15,16.

See in Deuteronomy 17:17.

See Balaam in Numbers 25:1,2,3.

See in Judges 3:5,6,7.

See Samson the Judge in Judges 14:1,2,3.

See the Chronicles in 1 Chronicles 5:24,25.

See Ezra in Ezra 9:1,2,11,12.

See Nehemiah in Nehemiah 9:2, 10:28,29,30, 13:23,25,26,27.

See Solomon in 1 Kings 11:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8.

Many “Sons of God” “looked”/“saw” [“saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair” and “took them wives of all which they chose” [Genesis 6:2]] and "beheld" [Just as did Samson, “she pleaseth me well”, or King David who went after Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah the Hittite and his friend, through covetousness had Uriah killed in action “from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman [was] very beautiful to look upon” [2 Samuel 11:2, 12:9] and Solomon who “multiplied wives” and “loved many strange women” and all Israel who took of the “daughters of the land”], and then “lusted and coveted” and so were ensnared being “Vex[ed], Beguiled, To Commit Trespass Against The LORD, Commit Fornication, Eat things sacrificed unto Idols, worshipped idols” [Numbers 25:18, 31:16; Revelation 2:14]:

Jude 1:11 - Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

See also the words of Jesus, as it was in the days of Noah and Lot:

Job 21:7,14, 22:15,16,17; Matthew 24:37,38; Luke 17:26,27; 2 Peter 2:5, 3:3,6.

In the greater overall picture there is a like message and call for the “people of God” also today to “come out” of “Spiritual Babylon” [just as God had done with physical Babylon; Jeremiah 51:9; Isaiah 52:11] that “great Whore” [Revelation 17:1, 19:2]:

See 2 Corinthians 6:14,15,16,17,18; Revelation 18:4.

For “giants” of men, after the flood, see:

Genesis 10:8,9, 14:5, 15:20; Numbers 13:32,33; Deuteronomy 2:11,20,21, 3:11,13, 9:2; Joshua 12:4, 13:12, 15:8, 17:15, 18:16; 2 Samuel 5:18,22, 21:16,18,19,20,22; 1 Chronicles 11:23, 14:9, 20:4,5,6; Isaiah 17:5, 45:14

For “men of reknown” see:

Numbers 1:16, 16:2, 26:9; 1 Chronicles 5:24, 12:30

For more details, please ask.

You have a misunderstanding of the word "spirit" which may be demonstrated in thorough detail upon request.

[ShinyGospelShoes]

10 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

He refers to Psalm 82 to point out that it was Him that presided over the Council of God

John 10 and Psalms 82:

 

John 10:24 - Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

John 10:25 - Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:26 - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 - My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

 

This speaks of at-one-ment, of heart, purpose, not of persons.

John 10:31 - Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

 

They did this, because, Jesus just claimed full equality with God, that is, the person of the Father. He had done this before [John 10:25, "... I told you, and ye believed not ..."], with the same results:

John 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 8:57 - Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:59 - Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

This would have been blasphemy [Leviticus 24:14; 1 Kings 21:10], and subject for stoning, had it not been that Jesus was who He said He is.

John 10:32 - Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

 

Jesus, then knowing that they do not believe His words, mercifully points them to His actions, deeds, the very miracles wrought, the lives of people delivered from satan, sin, disease, death. Many say that actions speak louder than words, and therefore, Jesus turned up the volume for them, that these willingly deaf might hear, and have no excuse for their own evil present course:

John 10:33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

 

They unwittingly condemn themselves by acknowledging that the works of Jesus were "good works". They should have recognized then, the source of them, and recognize, that Jesus' actions, were matching His words, and have drawn the conclusion by following the result back to their source and see that the words were undeniably true, yet this they did not do, because they sought to justify themselves, and to justify their idea of what the Messiah/Christ ought to have been, and do. Jesus, having already told them [1], and shown them [2], that He was equal to God, that is the person of the Father, and did the very "good works" that the Father does, now attempts to show them from scripture [3] itself [rather than His present words, and present actions], who He is:

John 10:34 - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35 - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

 

Now, Jesus cites the scripture [OT] itself, specifically Psalms 82:1,6, in its context [see also that the priests and rulers of the people are called by God, "gods" [Exodus 4:16, 7:1, 22:28; Psalms 138:1; Daniel 8:11,25, 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:3]], which in context, meant "children of the Most High" [Psalms 82:6], all "brethren" [Matthew 23:8; Hebrews 2:11], equally Kings and Priests, under God:

Psalms 82:1 - A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

There is a perfect parallelism:

[1A] "... God ..."

[1B] "... he ..."

[2A] "... standeth in ..."

[2B] "... judgeth among ..."

 

[3A] "... the congregation of the mighty ..."

[3B] "... the gods ..."

Psalms 82:2 - How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

Psalms 82:3 - Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

Psalms 82:4 - Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Psalms 82:5 - They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Psalms 82:6 - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

There is a perfect parallelism:

[1A] "I have said ..."

[1B] "... and ..."

[2A] "... Ye are ..."

[2B] "... all of you are …"

 

[3A] "... gods …"

 

[3B] "... children of the most High."

Psalms 82:7 - But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Psalms 82:8 - Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

In so doing, Jesus refers to God Himself, being in the midst of the His people, while He being the true just Judge, they being unjust judges, God defending the poor, fatherless, needy, etc, they turing away from them. The very moment that Jesus cites this reference to the Psalm, is exactly the moment of the contrast between Himself, His words and actions, and their [the Jews, leaders, Pharisees, etc] words and actions. So, Jesus' [1] words demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were, [2] His actions, the "good works", demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were, and even [3] the very scripture itself in Psalms 82, demonstrated/vindicated who He is, and who they were. However, more than this, Jesus is drawing a greater argument from the text, notice:

John 10:36 - Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus, said "I am the Son of God", and in John 10:30, said, "I and my Father are one", which the "Jews" rightly understood Him, to make the claim that He was indeed equal to God, the person of the Father, when they said [John 10:33], "... thou ... makest thyself God."

Is Jesus backtracking from making the claim to be God [not the person of the Father, but that of the Son], or backtracking from the claim that He was equal with God [person of the Father]? No. He is making a perfect air-tight case, from scripture, which cannot be broken [John 10:35], from the 'lesser' to the 'greater'.

Jesus cited Psalms 82, saying that even the scripture called God's own people, "gods", meaning that they were to be just judges, even "children of the most High", and thus were all 'sons of God' in that sense, called to be like Him in character, words, actions, etc. Jesus had claimed to be the actual "Son of God", who from eternity was equal with the Father. Jesus is saying, since the scripture called the adopted persons 'gods', 'children of the most High', which none of them argued with, how much more then does the actual un-adopted, original, eternal, only begotten heir have claim to such, as "Son of God", and they all knew of the person from the OT, see "my fellow" [Zechariah 13:7], the person at the bush with Moses [Exodus 3 & 4, 23:21], with Joshua [Joshua 5:13-15], etc, etc, and the coming "son" [Isaiah 9:6] who was given from the Father.

Therefore, which had the greater claim to the designation and responsibility, the actual Son of God, or those who were later called into the family of God, through adoption, whom were all called "gods", "children of the most High", "sons of God" [Genesis 6:2,4; Hosea 1:10; Ezekiel 16:21, etc]? How then could they stone Jesus, since the Messiah was the real Son of God, and they all only called and adopted? They would to have as soon stone themselves before they could rightfully stone Jesus for the rightful claim, which was superior in every way to their claim to such. Jesus is not saying that He is not God, nor lessening the arguments and words beforehand made, nor backtracking to save Himself, He, instead is making the perfect unarguable case, from scripture that He is who He said He is, drawing from the 'lesser' to the 'greater' example. Jesus finishes by pointing back again to His actions, which were fulfilling the very scriptures:

 

John 10:37 - If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 - But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 10:39 - Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

They did not care about all three means by which Jesus sought to show them, because, they were unjust, and proved themselves so and stubbornly wanted to remain so. They could not refute Jesus' words, actions or scripture.

[ShinyGospelShoes]

10 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Satan 'fell' as Yeshua described it. Also many beings fell with him (not one third either, that is a misdirect).

1/3rd part of the stars, Revelation 12:4 in part (full detail upon request):

“And his tail” – The prophet that teaches lies (Jhn. 8:44; 1 Ki. 22:22-23; 2 Chr. 18:21-22), and that which is last on a body (Deut. 28:13,44), also likened unto the small stick or ‘rush’ (Isa. 19:15; Mal. 4:1), and ‘firebrands’ (that which is burning with smoke and fire (Amo. 4:11; Isa. 50:10-11); see Judg. 15:4; Isa. 7:4; one who ‘deceives’ Pro. 26:18-19); see Isa. 9:14-15; Eze. 28:18.

“drew” – To lead by taking away, to separate from another; see Isa. 5:18; Act. 5:37, 20:30; Luk. 22:47; Heb. 10:38-39.  Lucifer drew with lies, but God draws with love and truth, Son. 1:4; Hos. 11:4; Jhn. 6:44, 12:32; Heb. 7:19; Jam. 4:8.

“the third part of” – Indicates that there are 3 parts, or 3/3rd’s; see 2 Sam. 18:2; 2 Ki. 11:5-6; 2 Chr. 23:4-5; Eze. 5:1-3,12; Zec. 13:8-9; Rev. 8:7-12, 9:15,18.  God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are the true Light (Jhn. 1:9; 1 Jhn. 1:5; Rev. 21:23), even Christ the Morning Star (Rev. 2:28, 22:16), the Day Star (2 Pet. 1:19), while the angelic hosts became divided, there are now holy and unholy (unclean) angels, all of whom are called stars (some fallen); see Job. 38:7; Psa. 147:4, 148:2-3; Isa. 14:13; Dan. 12:3; Mat. 2:2,7,9-10, 22:30; Mar. 12:25; 1 Cor. 15:39-44.

“the stars of heaven” – Angels and men (and both apply here); see Gen. 22:17, 26:4, 37:9; Exo. 32:13; Num. 24:17; Deut. 1:10, 10:22, 28:62; Judg. 5:20; 1 Chr. 27:23; Neh. 9:23; Job. 25:5, 38:7; 147:4, 148:2-3; Isa. 14:13; Dan. 8:10, 12:3; Amo. 5:26; Mat. 2:2,7,9-10, 22:30; Mar. 12:25; 1 Cor. 15:39-44; Heb. 11:12; Jud. 1:13; Rev. 1:16,20, 2:1, 3:1, 12:4,7-9.

“and did cast them to the earth” – to lower or bring down from an exalted position (such as Heaven, righteousness, holiness, godliness), to debase, to profane, make carnal, earthly; see Exo. 4:3; 2 Sam. 8:2; 2 Chr. 25:8; Job. 41:9; Psa. 36:12, 74:7, 89:44, 143:3, 147:6; Pro. 7:26; Isa. 14:12, 25:12, 26:5, 28:1-4, 29:4, 47:1; Lam. 2:1; Eze. 13:14, 19:12, 26:11, 28:17, 31:16; Dan. 8:7-12; Oba. 1:3; Luk. 13:7; Rev. 12:9,13.

 

[ShinyGospelShoes]

12 hours ago, maryjayne said:

your assumption is incorrect.

Hmm, I am curious then as to your raised faith, since I only know of the LDS faith that teaches that Jesus Christ and Satan's power were equal.  You stated you grew up in a cult, so I naturally made such an connection.  Apologies for my asking if that was the religion you referred to.  Would you care to explain in brief what 'cult' you referred to, at least by name?

[ShinyGospelShoes]

17 hours ago, unworthyservant said:

then God will reveal any of those things that He needs me to know.

Joh_16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This thread is about Truth, and refutation of error.

Joh 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Joh_17:19  And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

For error cannot ever sanctify.   Error does not ever become truth by age.  Doctrine is more than theological ideology.  It deals with the plan of redemption itself and the restoration of the image of God in mankind, and always deals with the character of God.

God is shining great light from out of His word, and upon His word.  Those who reject it, reject the light sent, which will only increase the darkess:

1Jn_2:8  Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

[ShinyGospelShoes]

Just now, maryjayne said:

If I had wished to do so publicly, I would have done so in my signature.

Then you can only expect persons to misidentify when you make such statements.  You cannot hold me responsible if you continue to withhold.  I only asked in charity, not desiring to offend.