Adstar Posted September 6, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 6, 2019 3 hours ago, Mike Mclees said: Can the word of God be in disagreement with itself such as in verses that say two different things disagreeing with one another. as in complete opposite meaning ? People only come to that conclusion because of their human lack of total wisdom.. Most supposed contradictions in the scriptures can be understood by simply reading the passage and understanding the context of the verse.. Of course there will always be things that an individual Christian will not be able to explain.. That's why the scriptures state that we must have trust in God which is Faith.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted September 6, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.80 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 6, 2019 (edited) The dictionary tells us this is what a heretic is: a person believing in or practicing religious heresy. When a bible teaching is in defiance of true and clear biblical teaching it is heretical. Edited September 6, 2019 by missmuffet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mclees Posted September 6, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 1,915 Content Per Day: 0.80 Reputation: 910 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 6, 2019 7 hours ago, missmuffet said: The dictionary tells us this is what a heretic is: a person believing in or practicing religious heresy. When a bible teaching is in defiance of true and clear biblical teaching it is heretical. Would say that before a doctrine can be a true doctrine it needs to be in line with all new Testament scripture or you would not be able to build a doctrine on base on conflicting scripture. The word cannot be divided. Would you say that is true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted September 6, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.92 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted September 6, 2019 (edited) On 9/4/2019 at 8:34 AM, Mike Mclees said: About a week ago the subject of heretics was a concern on the board Among established churches what is heresy ? 13 hours ago, Mike Mclees said: Can the word of God be in disagreement with itself such as in verses that say two different things disagreeing with one another. as in complete opposite meaning ? 11 hours ago, Mike Mclees said: Then all scripture is true and in agreement as the word of God when it comes to doctrine. Then because scripture cannot be a house divided there cant be two doctrines in disagreement with one another except one be false which would be heresie Some interesting questions thrown into the ring here, but it makes a potentially confusing thread. Edited September 6, 2019 by BeauJangles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalfTheWise Posted September 6, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 24 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 2,377 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/23/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 6, 2019 12 hours ago, Mike Mclees said: Then all scripture is true and in agreement as the word of God when it comes to doctrine. Then because scripture cannot be a house divided there cant be two doctrines in disagreement with one another except one be false which would be heresie There are three situations we need to treat carefully before starting to declare heresy. The first is when apparent contradictions point to a mystery of the faith. The second is when a belief is consistent with but not proven by scripture. The third is when scripture simply doesn't clearly state something we wish it would. Here is an example of the first situation of apparent contradiction. The Christian belief that Jesus Christ is both fully human and fully God is supported by two different sets of scripture passages which on the surface appear to contradict each other. Some heresies have resulted by using logic to say this is not possible for Jesus to be both God and human hence they try to find some explanation for the apparent contradiction. Some heresies say that Jesus was God but just appeared to have a body, others say Jesus was a good man who became divine after death, and some say Jesus was just a special powerful created being who was neither fully God or fully human. This is a case where two sets of apparently contradicting verses point to something about the nature of God that transcends human experience and logic in some manner. Here is an example of beliefs being consistent with but not proven by scripture. The various Christian views on church government is a situation where different different denominations (and independent groups) point to scripture as the basis for what they do. Some Christians believe the Bible teaches there should be no denominations or organizations and that only home churches are taught by scripture. Others that a local elder group should be in charge of a local church or ministry. Others that a head pastor should be in charge. Others that churches should have groups of elders and deacons as part of the organization. Others that a regional group of elders or leaders should be in charge of and watch over a group of local churches. If you look around, you will find various denominations and churches and ministries today which are based on these different beliefs. Why is it that there are so many patterns Christians believe the Bible teaches for church organization and leadership? It is because early Christians used different forms of organization as God led them in different locations and situations. There was no one pattern used everywhere. The Bible records different organization and leadership structures that the early church used as God led them to in different places. In some situations, apostles would start a series of local churches, appoint elders, and then keep track of what was going on and stepping in as needed. This describes much of Paul's ministry. In Jerusalem, there was a group of elders (who later appointed deacons to help) that oversaw the church. In Antioch, a group of elders is listed. In some places, the local believers met in homes. In other places, they met in public buildings. In some cases, they met every day. In other cases, they had weekly meetings. There really is no one pattern that covers in detail what all local assemblies of believers did as for meetings or organization of leadership. The patterns of meetings and organization and leadership some churches use today are explicitly based on one of those Bible examples. This case of church organization and government is one where Christians hold different views which are consistent with scripture (meaning that their pattern of organization is found in the Bible) but not proven by scripture (because no one pattern of organization is specifically held up as the only one). I've seen Christians on this site debate this topic very fiercely trying to prove one of these biblical patterns is the only one we should follow. There are many examples of scripture not telling us details about something we want to know more about. What are principalities and powers and how are they organized? When will Jesus return? Who or what were the Nephilim in Genesis 6:4? How are we supposed to understand why no one can see God's face and live yet God seems to have appeared and talked to people in the Old Testament? Some Christians take these types of things very seriously and I've seen threads on this site degenerate into heretic/not-heretic types of fights over whose guesses are better than others on these types of topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted September 6, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 107 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,820 Content Per Day: 1.30 Reputation: 4,806 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted September 6, 2019 On 9/4/2019 at 10:34 AM, Mike Mclees said: About a week ago the subject of heretics was a concern on the board Among established churches what is heresy ? Heresy is a belief that is held and taught which contradicts what God teaches in his Word. Some heresies are easy to spot: JW's believe and teach that Jesus and the archangel Michael are the same person. They believe and teach that Jesus is not divine - that, in the words of some who came to my door, Jesus is a "mighty spiritual creature", but not divine and not God. Mormons believe and teach that God was once a man on a far away planet that eventually became exalted. Also we will be "g"ods one day on our own planet. All progressive churches [and that's their name -progressive] [sweeping several denominations] teach that we are all going to heaven, there is no hell, homosexuality is not a sin, and that the Bible can only be believed in PART. Heresy is ONLY ABOUT the essentials. People do get their noses out of joint over non-essentials and will fight to the death over it. I am literally watching a thread on another forum where men are arguing whether or not David carried Goliath's head by the hair, under his arm, or by the neckbone. Pages and pages of argument over this. We need to be careful what we call heresy. If it just a disagreement over the non-essentials, it is not heresy. It's just nit picking. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted September 6, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.80 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 6, 2019 4 hours ago, BeauJangles said: Some interesting questions thrown into the ring here, but it makes a potentially confusing thread. Yes, it would be nice to keep the threads simple and basic theology. It makes it easier for the new Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mclees Posted September 7, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 1,915 Content Per Day: 0.80 Reputation: 910 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 7, 2019 7 hours ago, missmuffet said: Yes, it would be nice to keep the threads simple and basic theology. It makes it easier for the new Christians. Is there such a place. The gospel is simple. It is man who ties nots in the rope. This is why we have so many denomes with their own beliefs ideals and doctrines so they can attract and keep congregations and members in their pews. one is excepting gay marriage partners as members. Still there are more appeasements. I believe most here would call this heresies. Like building doctrines of men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saved34 Posted September 7, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,185 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 667 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/28/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1971 Share Posted September 7, 2019 16 hours ago, Mike Mclees said: Would say that before a doctrine can be a true doctrine it needs to be in line with all new Testament scripture or you would not be able to build a doctrine on base on conflicting scripture. The word cannot be divided. Would you say that is true? I think you nailed it. If someone pops up with doctrine that the Church(all born again believers from the apostles until now) does not recognize, then it is heresy. The church through the power of the Holy Spirit has defended and guarded the truth throughout history. 1Ti 3:15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. We are all growing together as one unit or body. No such thing as new doctrine that no one in God’s church does not know about. Eph 4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Eph 4:14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. We may bicker over certain non essentials, but will all come together like the 300 Spartans with sword and shield in hand when it comes to those essential truths of our faith. 1Jn 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1Jn 2:21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. When it concerns the essentials I truly believe we who are born again have an innate knowledge of the truth. We can grow in the knowledge of those truths through further study, but I believe the Holy Spirit blesses us all with fundamental truth. Humanity of Christ, Deity of Christ, virgin birth, blood atonement of Christ, bodily resurrection of Christ, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted September 7, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 7, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, saved34 said: I think you nailed it. If someone pops up with doctrine that the Church(all born again believers from the apostles until now) does not recognize, then it is heresy. So what about the early church rants against the Jews? The prohibition of dealing with them and the absolute antisemitism of many 'austere' theologians. What about the Canons against the Israelis and the general forbidding of all things Hebrew? That was doctrine and you could have your property confiscated and even thrown in prison or worse. Where do you think our 'modern' doctrines came from? Have you read the letters and publications of Calvin, Luther and may other so-called fathers of the faith. They hated Israel and even modern theologians said Israel could never return to their lands and that God had abandoned them. Down thru the ages this encouraged the 'enlightened' ones to the point that little was done to prevent the Holocaust. Then came 1948 and so they now revise their doctrines. Anything after about AD 150 - 200 would be classed as Heresy I think. Because they despised the Hebrews, as still do many today, they overlooked Hebrew scholarship and writings. So their doctrine is not only stilted, it has been systematically robbed of anything supernatural INCLUDING God and His workings. Go study and see for yourself how they all seemed to misunderstand God's long ago stated goals of regathering and redeeming His people - all of them if you read Pentecost correctly. Oh, so distasteful to the modern ersatz 'truth'. There is literally reams of Heresy in church history... Edited September 7, 2019 by Justin Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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