Why Did Jesus Die For Us

[Kabowd]

You're using those under the Old Covenant to justify the claim there are "terms" for salvation? If we have obligationst o fulfill in order to be saved then Christ died in vain. And again, you are ignoring something very vital...do you really think God needs to see our works in order to know if we're truly His? In the case of Noah, in the case of Abraham..even in the case of Cain and Abel as mentioned above...God knows who are His long before they perform any act of good or bad. If anyone is rejected, it is because of their heart.

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No, Christ did not die in vain, He purchased something for us, that many are overlooking. AGAIN, go back to the VERY FIRST post of this thread. We have got to stop insulting the Spirit of Grace!

In His Love,

Suzanne

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What He purchased was us. We are the ones who have been bought with a price. How is it insulting grace to accept it? What cheapens grace are those who insist that works are essential to salvation.

[EricH]

You're basically saying the same thing over and over. Again I ask...do you believe works/deeds/fruits are for God's benefit..so that He will recognize those who are His?

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This has been my frustration as well. I can never get a clear answer in terms of what is the exact role of works in the process. In this case the Cain reference is not the best. Cain was angry because He was convicted. Here there is a frustration because questions aren't being answered.

[apothanein kerdos]

Does it matter?

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He did not scold them for having no "faith".  He rebuked them for their works.  They "worked" iniquity, rather than the will of His Father(obedience and belief).

Did their works matter to Him?  Of course they did, so much so, they were the very things that kept them from the Kingdom...........their works of iniquity.

In His Truth,

Suzanne

Talk abou taking scripture out of context to meet a presupposition. For one, we know He is talking about those with no faith but produce works that look like they belong in the category of Christian. The context is that of false prophets or false Christians. In verses seventeen and eighteen He explains that a good branch, or a good vine (Him) produces good fruit (works). Thus the advocacy is that faith in the vine will produce works. When He talks of those who produce no fruit and being cast, they are being cast away because they have no faith in Christ. If they had faith in Christ then their works would have shown it. In fact, His condemnation states that they bared no fruit. Going off of verses seventeen and eighteen, we know this to mean that they had no faith to begin with. So works stem from faith. Faith is the initial act of beliving, of falling in love with Christ. Works are the natural consequence of that act.

As for the debate on the Greek, turning to strongs means nothing.

The thing is, there many different ways of speaking of "know" in the Greek. ginosko is to say that you have knowledge of something. This can be put with different tenses to mean different things or mixed with different words to mean different things (as will be shown in a bit). oudepete however, means "not at any time" if we are to translate the idea.

In Matthew 7:23 we see that the words oudepte and ginosko are combined to form the word epgozomenoi which means in the translation of an idea "i never had intimate knowledge of you". This is different in contrast to Matthew 7:20 where the word epiginosethe, which taken out of its tense is epiginosko. This is different from the way "know" is structured in verse 23 in that epiginosko means "to recognize". The difference is clear. Knowing in verse 23 is Jesus talking about never having an intamite relationship with them. This means that they never have faith (this is why they ask about the works they've done in His name, they, like yoruself, are relying upon their works and not their faith). Jesus retorts with never having a relatinship with them, never having known them. This contrasts with verse 20 in that Jesus is telling His disciples that by looking at the fruits of a person they will be able to recognize his faith. Faith leads to actions, thus if a person has bad works, they have bad faith.

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I'm still waiting for a response to this. In here is the main analysis, so I ask you, how am I wrong?

[apothanein kerdos]

This is from an article I'm writing, but I believe it applies here:

So then, how can a Christian truly believe in sola fide? Can faith be brought about by our own action? In other words, can the initial act of faith be strengthened or gained by works? If a person does the work of Christ, will that cause him to obtain faith? If a person works for faith and he is paid, he is merely given what is due. If faith is gained through obedience or works then God is giving us what is due, not a favor (grace)31 . Thus, it is the person who does not work for faith but instead believes without working that gains righteousness 32.  If I were to work for my friend for a week, and at the end of the week he paid off my mortgage, would that be a gift or simply a payment for what I had done? It would have been a payment, no matter how we look at the situation. I would have received something in return for what I did, no matter how small my work was or how large the reward It does not defeat the fact that this is a work to reward relationship. Instead if my friend comes up to me and offers to pay my mortgage off, knowing that I never could, all I have to do is accept it, no work is required upon my part. That is believing faith. Faith, the original act of faith, is the act of believing that Christ died. Works do not lead to faith, instead faith comes from grace, and from faith comes works. It is by grace, though faith that we have been saved, not by our own works33 .  Paul goes on in verse nine of Ephesians two to declare that our works have no part in our salvation. It goes back to the concept of payment. If God delivered salvation to man based upon payment, then some would be more saved then others. It would be confusing because there is no standard of what works must be done to be saved, there is no quota. So must faith be obtained by works or go with works in order to be saving faith? The simple answer is no. Faith is obtained through belief, not through works. From faith comes works.

So what of sola gratia, the idea that grace is something freely given and accepted through faith, and not by our own works? First, what is grace? Grace, the basic biblical concept, is Christ coming down to earth as a human being and offering His life as a ransom for all34 . A good symbolic act of grace is that of the blood of the pure lamb on the door during the first Passover. The transgressions of Egypt had required the blood of every firstborn son in Egypt, Egyptians, Jews, all were required to offer this payment. Instead, God offered an alternative; those that put the blood of a pure lamb on their door post would avoid the payment required of them, instead the lamb would have taken the payment for the family. Likewise, sin has caused man to be in debt to God. The penalty, or payment, is eternal separation from Him. However the choice is offered in Jesus Christ, who became a ransom for man. By accepting the blood of this pure Lamb the ransom is paid, the debt (sins) forgiven. From this grace, this sudden acknowledgement that Christ has forgiven us our sins, faith becomes apparent. Faith and grace go hand in hand, it is impossible to have one without the other. While one leads men to repentance and causes a belief in God (grace), the other solidifies it and makes grace an active part of a believer

[tsth]

Hebrews 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

You cannot walk in His grace, if you do not believe in His Grace/Power "to work" in you, anymore than Noah could have been saved, had he not believed in God's power to deliver him via an ark that he was told he could build. Noah NEVER said, oh, but I can't build an ark, I am not able. He said, he believed, thereby God's power was displayed in him to perform what was commanded. It should be the same for us.

How do you believe Jesus if not by your works, but it cannot be superficial works that are only done for others to see and are quickly abandoned behind closed doors where iniquity can abound. It must be about the works that are done, because you now believe in His Power to work in you.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

You're basically saying the same thing over and over. Again I ask...do you believe works/deeds/fruits are for God's benefit..so that He will recognize those who are His?

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This has been my frustration as well. I can never get a clear answer in terms of what is the exact role of works in the process. In this case the Cain reference is not the best. Cain was angry because He was convicted. Here there is a frustration because questions aren't being answered.

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Now we're getting somewhere. And WHY was he convicted?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[apothanein kerdos]

Can you actually respond to what we've said instead of bringing forth pre fabricated and pre canned answers? You bring up Hebrews while ignoring EVERYTHING we've brought up. Why shoudl we respond to Hebrews when you won't respond to our analysis, and will ignore it and bring up another verse? Why shoudl we wish to get in this cycle with you?

[Kabowd]

Can you actually respond to what we've said instead of bringing forth pre fabricated and pre canned answers?    You bring up Hebrews while ignoring EVERYTHING we've brought up. Why shoudl we respond to Hebrews when you won't respond to our analysis, and will ignore it and bring up another verse? Why shoudl we wish to get in this cycle with you?

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Exactly. We respond to her, she ignores and posts something else. Wash, rinse, repeat. If we want to actually get somewhere we need direct responses.

[Kabowd]

How do you believe Jesus if not by your works,

What in the world? I'd still like a response to my other posts and Super Jew's posts...but I couldn't ignore this. Since when does Scripture teach that works produce faith? That's essentially what you just said. Doing works does not create belief in Jesus. Faith in Jesus is what produces works. You have it all backwards.

[angels4u]

Saving faith will produce a changed life. A person who is saved is trusting Christ alone for their salvation, not their works

By trusting in your works you are showing that you don't really trust Jesus.....