The two Beasts of Revelation 13 Identified

[DanielConway]

I agree that this is not a primary issue.  I consider all my dispensationalist co-posters to be brothers and would worship with any of them.  The thing of it is, if my theory is correct, then there is a warning here that the church should not miss.  The warning is that there are two great threats that the church faces from the state, oppression is the one we are all on guard against, but to be co-opted by the state is a terrible thing too.  Please pardon me if I offend anybody here, but I am appalled at the degree to which the white evangelical church has allowed itself to be sucked into the republican party.  On several occasions I have tried to get on spiritual ground with someone and have been given the stink eye as being just another one of the blankety blank conservatives who want to ruin the country with there bible thumping gun toting policies.  The message of grace is getting completely drowned out in a barrage of partisan opinion mongering.  But that sword cuts both ways.  How often does the typical black urban church preach salvation by the blood instead of deliverance by alligience to the democratic party?  This division and dilution of the message of grace can all be traced the the various branches of the church (which should not consider themselves branches in the first place, but that is another topic) allowing themselves to be co-opted by various organs of the state.

Edited September 19, 2019 by DanielConway

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, unworthyservant said:

Good point and analogy! It's uncanny how translation issues form so many of our opinions. So, with that said, I have to question why it should even be an issue. Why can't folks just agree to disagree or better yet not take such definitive sides on such an issue. Definitive views on such subjects are the cause of much controversy and while some things require such a definitive stand this isn't one, since it's something that will only be evident when it happens. Until then wouldn't our time be better spent on doing the things we can agree on like spreading the Gospel and helping those in need instead of worrying about who is right and wrong about the Revelation of John.

And it's not just this issue. I've been slowly but surely reading a series of topics started some years ago by @George concerning the Rapture theories (and I'll be starting a new one on that soon). Together they have over 200,000 views and 3000 replies and I wonder how few views were changed through all that. It is also of note that the topics on the teachings of Christ that I have seen don't have nearly so much activity. What does that say about our priorities? There are just some things that have so little relevance to our daily walk with God that I don't even take a definitive stand on them and this is a classic example of such an issue. I just feel that arguing such issues is not only needlessly rocking the boat but when involved in such discussions sometimes we're wasting good rowing time. "The harvest is great and the laborers few" so why don't we all just work on the harvest at hand instead of discussing next years crop while the current one rots in the field? Thanks again and God Bless

Hi unworthyservant...

Well, I'll address some of the above from the only perspective I have, my own. Of all the topics of the Bible [Bibliology, Theology, Christology, Pneumatology, Angelology, Anthropology, Soterlology, Ecclesiology, Eschatology and Israelology], should we be limiting ourselves to what you propose? Many to most churches today do not preach or study Eschatology, including my own for whatever reasons. People are starving for the whole council of God.

Depending on what scholar or expositor one subscribes to, the Bible is 25 - 30% prophetic, containing about 2,500 prophecies, of which about 2,000 have been fulfilled and about 500 yet remain to be fulfilled. It would seem that if eschatology wasn't extremely important, 1/3 of the Bible wouldn't be devoted to it? With this lack of eschatology not being preached and taught in our churches, where do you go to read, study and discuss hermeneutic views on prophecy? Yes, it is uncanny of all the views, and I guess that's why they coined the 50 cent word 'hermeneutics'. 

What are the signs of the end-times and should we be watching for them and watching for the return of Christ for His bride? How do we know we are living in the end of the age? Watch, and do not be deceived are the commands given to the terminal generation that sees Israel [dry bones] become a nation once again. Agreed, there's so many pre, mid, post, amillennial, no millennial theories it makes my head spin, but we should discuss and agree to disagree respectfully on the non-essentials. I have my own personal hermeneutic views based on study and teachings, but I'm open to listening to others views and considering them if they make sense and are scriptually sound. In other words; I'm not especially dogmatic in my views, with the sole exception of the Gospel, the way to Salvation through Christ alone, and the core tenets of our faith.

Yes, prophecy will only become evident when it happens, and then we will know it was from the Lord [Alpha - Omega]. But we are here and now, living at the end of this dispensation, witnessing first hand seeing all these things [convergence] coming to pass, lining up for the one world religious / political system, Gog - Magog war, Damascus being a heap over night, increases in natural disasters, etc. Yes, there are those on this forum that are so dogmatic about secondary issues, they revert to personal attacks, criticize your views and belief's and belittle; that's uncalled for and does not hold one another up. 

I personally study the 'whole council of God'.

God Bless

[unworthyservant]

36 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Yes, it is uncanny of all the views, and I guess that's why they coined the 50 cent word 'hermeneutics'. 

Dennis, I don't mean to say that all eschatology discussion is counterproductive, only that having to take such a definitive stand on a specific issue such as defining how or when the 2 beasts in Revelation will appear leads to much discussion on those issues and thus by proxy limits discussion on issues more relevant to our lives or our Faith. As you say, it's uncanny, all of the views on the issue, so I rest my case. The very word hermeneutics' implies interpretation and I feel that interpretation is oft times a arduous process so prefer to channel that energy to interpreting things that are more relevant to my daily walk with God or an unfulfilled prophecy that may more directly affect it.

Edited September 19, 2019 by unworthyservant
correct spelling

[Dennis1209]

54 minutes ago, DanielConway said:

I agree that this is not a primary issue.  I consider all my dispensationalist co-posters to be brothers and would worship with any of them.  The thing of it is, if my theory is correct, then there is a warning here that the church should not miss.  The warning is that there are two great threats that the church faces from the state, oppression is the one we are all on guard against, but to be co-opted by the state is a terrible thing too.  Please pardon me if I offend anybody here, but I am appalled at the degree to which the white evangelical church has allowed itself to be sucked into the republican party.  On several occasions I have tried to get on spiritual ground with someone and have been given the stink eye as being just another one of the blankety blank conservatives who want to ruin the country with there bible thumping gun toting policies.  The message of grace is getting completely drowned out in a barrage of partisan opinion mongering.  But that sword cuts both ways.  How often does the typical black urban church preach salvation by the blood instead of deliverance by alligience to the democratic party?  This division and dilution of the message of grace can all be traced the the various branches of the church (which should not consider themselves branches in the first place, but that is another topic) allowing themselves to be co-opted by various organs of the state.

Hi Daniel,

Wow, you bring up a lot that would take much conversation to express our views, both religious and political. To be extremely brief on the political side and in my personal view, pertaining to the two major parties, Democrat's and Republicans; ninety-nine percent of the time one of the two major parties are going to get elected in our two party system. As a Christian and an American, our duty is to vote for the best candidate that best represents our moral convictions and world views. No one is going to be perfect until Christ returns. We are not voting for a pastor, but the best available option we have placed in front of us. Not that they abide by it and take it to heart, but both parties have a written platform and ideal expressing their views. Which one 'better' reflects what one believes in is about our only political and civil option. 

[Alive]

1 minute ago, unworthyservant said:

Dennis, I don't mean to say that all eschatology discussion is counterproductive, only that having to take sure a definitive stand on a specific issue such as defining how or when the 2 beasts in Revelation will appear leads to much discussion on those issues and thus by proxy limits discussion on issues more relevant to our lives or our Faith. As you say, it's uncanny, all of the views on the issue, so I rest my case. The very word hermeneutics' implies interpretation and I feel that interpretation is oft times a arduous process so prefer to channel that energy to interpreting things that are more relevant to my daily walk with God or an unfulfilled prophecy that may more directly affect it.

I was just having this discussion with my believer neighbor an hour ago. I recall a time when I was very much involved in thinking about this stuff. I found that at a certain point, it CAN become a distraction. Some is good--maybe some more is not so much.

In the final analysis, the Lord knows and He did say that He would come at a time that we think not--and that after describing all the signs to watch for.

We that are His and still alive during those days, will know well what is happening. The Lord is perfectly capable of making things clear to us.

I repeat--I am waiting to hear a trumpet and loud shout. "Come hither".

:-)

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, unworthyservant said:

Good point and analogy! It's uncanny how translation issues form so many of our opinions. So, with that said, I have to question why it should even be an issue. Why can't folks just agree to disagree or better yet not take such definitive sides on such an issue. Definitive views on such subjects are the cause of much controversy and while some things require such a definitive stand this isn't one, since it's something that will only be evident when it happens. Until then wouldn't our time be better spent on doing the things we can agree on like spreading the Gospel and helping those in need instead of worrying about who is right and wrong about the Revelation of John.

And it's not just this issue. I've been slowly but surely reading a series of topics started some years ago by @George concerning the Rapture theories (and I'll be starting a new one on that soon). Together they have over 200,000 views and 3000 replies and I wonder how few views were changed through all that. It is also of note that the topics on the teachings of Christ that I have seen don't have nearly so much activity. What does that say about our priorities? There are just some things that have so little relevance to our daily walk with God that I don't even take a definitive stand on them and this is a classic example of such an issue. I just feel that arguing such issues is not only needlessly rocking the boat but when involved in such discussions sometimes we're wasting good rowing time. "The harvest is great and the laborers few" so why don't we all just work on the harvest at hand instead of discussing next years crop while the current one rots in the field? Thanks again and God Bless

Worthy Servant,

Eschatology is a non essential of the faith. Most of us who do this understand this. That being said we are called to watch for His Coming. Part of that watching is to study prophetic texts. The Beauty of Revelation and Prophecy is that it is bigger than our understanding. Try as People might with human intellect to understand it fully, approaching it as a scholar, they will fail. Revelation and Prophecy and the intense study of it will belittle your faith in your own intellect and result in you saying "LORD thou Knowest" Just as Ezekiel did. when we reach this point we are able to be taught By the Holy Ghost, When we are being Taught He reveals to us the Truth. Theology, in a sense, therefore is its own worst enemy in that the assumption is made that we can come to Know God Through mental ascent, But the Truth is we can only Know Him through Humility and trust in His Word, and By being Taught by the Spirit of Truth Like little children. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:4) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. (Matthew 11:25) 

Not to demean theology, for it does have role in our learning about God, But the truth is there are many brilliant theologists out there that do Not KNOW God personally. If I can just get one of them to reach the Point of saying "LORD thou knowest" I am accomplishing my calling for Him. Mental ascent is an enemy of true Biblical faith. Because it says that by knowing we can attain immortality. We have to remember the Mind is a carnal member of our body and we must be transformed by the renewing of our mind. (Romans 12:2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

So to answer your complaint, The 200,000 different viewpoints out there are Born in the mind, Only the truth is revealed to the heart and until many of those whose faith is in their mind come in humility as little children to learn from the Great Rabbi of mankind, they will continue to come with their myriad of understandings. the truth is that None of us has the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. We have baggage, we all do, and the sooner we come to terms with this baggage the sooner we will come to Know, As in a relationship, Christ Jesus our all in all.

God bless 

    

  

[Dennis1209]

15 minutes ago, Alive said:

I was just having this discussion with my believer neighbor an hour ago. I recall a time when I was very much involved in thinking about this stuff. I found that at a certain point, it CAN become a distraction. Some is good--maybe some more is not so much.

In the final analysis, the Lord knows and He did say that He would come at a time that we think not--and that after describing all the signs to watch for.

We that are His and still alive during those days, will know well what is happening. The Lord is perfectly capable of making things clear to us.

I repeat--I am waiting to hear a trumpet and loud shout. "Come hither".

:-)

Amen to that Brother, we're all waiting for that shout "Come Up Here".  

Not to further drag out this discussion and my thoughts. Reading Matthew 24: 43-44, and comparing it to 1 Thessalonians 5: 1-5, context is the key, whom was Jesus speaking to and what about? Christian's [the light] will not be taken by surprise because they were watching and understood the signs of the times. The "Goodman" means the head of the household and is not identified as being in the light, he was not watching or expecting so was caught off guard. 

[DanielConway]

22 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hi Daniel,

Wow, you bring up a lot that would take much conversation to express our views, both religious and political. To be extremely brief on the political side and in my personal view, pertaining to the two major parties, Democrat's and Republicans; ninety-nine percent of the time one of the two major parties are going to get elected in our two party system. As a Christian and an American, our duty is to vote for the best candidate that best represents our moral convictions and world views. No one is going to be perfect until Christ returns. We are not voting for a pastor, but the best available option we have placed in front of us. Not that they abide by it and take it to heart, but both parties have a written platform and ideal expressing their views. Which one 'better' reflects what one believes in is about our only political and civil option. 

I am not advocating for a withdrawal from society.  We should participate as much as our alliagance to Christ allows.  The problem occurs when one party or the other promises to favor our church or religion over another if we vote for them.  Tempting, but we must never fall for it.  Christ was explicit, "My kingdom is not of this world".  Any attempt by the state to create an environment in which the church is comfortable will fail and will result in embitterment on the part of the world, our mission field.  If we follow that course to it's conclusion the end will be a return to the medieval era, where the church exercised coercive power along side the state.

[unworthyservant]

1 hour ago, DanielConway said:

This division and dilution of the message of grace can all be traced the the various branches of the church (which should not consider themselves branches in the first place, but that is another topic) allowing themselves to be co-opted by various organs of the state.

Daniel I'm with you all the way and I, too have been concerned by what I call "Political Christianity" for some time but I just can't lay all the blame on the state. I would only add one little addition to your closing line "...allowing themselves to be co-opted by various organs of the state and internal distractions.

[DanielConway]

2 minutes ago, unworthyservant said:

Daniel I'm with you all the way and I, too have been concerned by what I call "Political Christianity" for some time but I just can't lay all the blame on the state. I would only add one little addition to your closing line "...allowing themselves to be co-opted by various organs of the state and internal distractions.

Think a little bit.  Internal distractions are like family squabling, they remain resolvable until an outside party starts offering to lend muscle to one side or the other.  Then they become toxic and potentially fatal.  All the religious wars of the medieval era can be traced to one side or the other seeking support from the state.  If we were forced to resolve our differences without outside parties lending support to one side or the other (even in the case where the outside party is supporting the biblically consistent side, Martin) we could work out our differences without alienating or killing one another.