What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[Trust & Obey]

Now, you say that Noah's building the ark was a "work unto salvation." However, what you are completely ignoring is the fact that it was according to God's design in the first place.

I'm sure not denying that:

Paul knew that he was ultimately not responsible for the good works manifested in his life. He could not boast that the life he lived after accepting and following Jesus was the result of his own workmanship. And it was with this in mind and with the knowledge that the Ephesians were also abiding in this state of being saved from living in sin that he wrote the following to them: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10

Paul

[Guest shiloh357]

There is an element of human responsibility. An example I used in another thread is this:

I could go into my office with a stack of fresh pizzas and put them on the conference room table. Then, I could make a announcement that, "whosoever will, let them come and freely eat."

But, only those that take the opportunity to get up and help themselves to the free pizza will have their bellies filled. So, too, is it with the gospel of Christ. Christ has said, "if any many thirsts, let him come unto Me and drink." But, only those who do so will have their thirst quenched. It doesn't mean that the person saved themself, rather it means that they were partakers of the free gift.

Now, one doesn't walk away from Christ and say within himself, "boy that was good water... What a treat I found for myself." Rather, they say, "boy that was some satisfying water... thanks be to Jesus for giving it to me."

That is true... we have to receive the gift of salvation. We have to reach out and take what God has provided. That is not really what is being taught by FOM and others, though. They are teaching that we have to work to maintain our salvation in order to worthy of eternal life, which is absolutely anathema to the Gospel and completely nullifies grace and Christ's work of redemption on the cross.

[Ovedya]

To accept God's free gift of salvation is not a work unto salvation, it is merely a response to God's irresistable grace. As Shiloh pointed out, the debate here centers around whether or not works are a deciding factor in ones' salvation after he has received the gift of grace.

[Kabowd]

How long must we resist the onslaught of heretical teaching around here? We've been bombarded lately. There's only so much debating you can do, my fear is that there are those who may be weaker in their faith who will fall victim to these new posters who are teaching heresy.

[Fisher of Men]

To accept God's free gift of salvation is not a work unto salvation, it is merely a response to God's irresistable grace.  As Shiloh pointed out, the debate here centers around whether or not works are a deciding factor in ones' salvation after he has received the gift of grace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since the purpose of grace is to bring about works, obviously, frustrating that grace by bringing forth the wrong works cannot lead to where grace wants to lead us.

It's like being given a million dollars to get something done and saying I don't need to get it done because I have a million dollars.

It's like the talents, we must do with it what we are supposed to or it will be taken from us and at the reckoning we will be appointed a place in eternity with the unbelievers for denying him by doing the wrong works.

Tit 1:16

[Fisher of Men]

To accept God's free gift of salvation is not a work unto salvation, it is merely a response to God's irresistable grace.  As Shiloh pointed out, the debate here centers around whether or not works are a deciding factor in ones' salvation after he has received the gift of grace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jesus said we must continue in his word which of course would include being a doer thereof and not a hearer. By not yielding to be a doer of the word guess what happens? we will then become doers of something else and where do you think that something else will lead.

It is shameful that such a fundamental verse that teaches us that the wages of sin is death should be wrested to imply that the Christian is not under that truth. The reason that the christian is not going to be in the second death is because the grace of God and the Spirit of God are restraining them from sin thus overcoming the unmoveable law that the wages of sin is death. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Isn't it through Him that we can walk in the Spirit and not fulfil the lust of the flesh? If Christians do not walk in the Spirit and thereby fulfill the lust of the flesh they will die. Hence the need for works to maintain salvation after being saved.

But as I have said all along the works that are necessary are works that we need him to help us to literally do and we give him all the glory for that help to the point that we confess as did Paul that it is God that works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. That is how we work out our own salvation as Noah did: yield to that working that moves us to will and to do.

If we do not yield? we fulfil the lust of the flesh instead and endanger our salvation as Paul plainly said to Christians, If they walk after the lusts of the flesh they shall die. Also our hearts can become deceived and hardened through sin.

Isn't repentance a work?

Wasn't that work necessary for salvation?

It's not really true then is it, that salvation is not dependent on what we do.

So please stop saying that. That is corrupting the sober truth of the gospel.

We all have a choice. Do or die.

For God's sake consider the young believers who are being corrupted from the simplicity of Christ by contradicting the sound doctrine I present here.

Did I say the doing is accredited to our own selves ultimately? Am I not saying that it is the grace of God working in our consciences that is ultimately being given the credit for the works necessary to both initially obtain salvation through obedience and to retain salvation through obedience?

So can those accusing me please stop?

[irishcowboy]

I could go into my office with a stack of fresh pizzas and put them on the conference room table. Then, I could make a announcement that, "whosoever will, let them come and freely eat."

But, only those that take the opportunity to get up and help themselves to the free pizza will have their bellies filled. So, too, is it with the gospel of Christ. Christ has said, "if any many thirsts, let him come unto Me and drink." But, only those who do so will have their thirst quenched. It doesn't mean that the person saved themself, rather it means that they were partakers of the free gift.

Now, one doesn't walk away from Christ and say within himself, "boy that was good water... What a treat I found for myself." Rather, they say, "boy that was some satisfying water... thanks be to Jesus for giving it to me."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so,

when is this pizza party? you hade best announce it intime for me to get there... lol....

[EricH]

I could go into my office with a stack of fresh pizzas and put them on the conference room table. Then, I could make a announcement that, "whosoever will, let them come and freely eat."

But, only those that take the opportunity to get up and help themselves to the free pizza will have their bellies filled. So, too, is it with the gospel of Christ. Christ has said, "if any many thirsts, let him come unto Me and drink." But, only those who do so will have their thirst quenched. It doesn't mean that the person saved themself, rather it means that they were partakers of the free gift.

Now, one doesn't walk away from Christ and say within himself, "boy that was good water... What a treat I found for myself." Rather, they say, "boy that was some satisfying water... thanks be to Jesus for giving it to me."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so,

when is this pizza party? you hade best announce it intime for me to get there... lol....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When I was in corporate there would have been no issue in having to invite people to take the Pizza. They had an innate sense of free food.

[Christ's Free Servant]

In the book of Ephesians we learn that we are saved by grace and not of works. Then, James kind of turns that around when he says that you are saved by what you do, because works are the evidence of your faith. I think that is kind of the point of Hebrews 11 when it shows how the GREATS of the faith were saved by faith and the examples of their faith had to do with the things they did in response to God and his promises. BTW - their faith was in the Messiah - theirs was a looking ahead to his coming and our faith is based on looking back to what he did for us on the cross, but they and us are all saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

On one side of the coin we have those who believe we are saved by faith and that not even repentance is a part of it, because even the act of repentance is works and we are not saved by works, so they teach that you can be saved by merely praying a prayer and you are forgiven for all sin from that point on and you are secured your home in heaven no matter how you live from that point on. But, I don't see this as fitting with what the book of James and I John talk about, and the rest of the Bible for that matter.

On the other side of the coin we have those who believe that every time we sin we lose our salvation and so we have to live in constant fear of whether or not we confessed all our sins - don't see this one as working with the whole "saved by grace" thing, though. This, to me, defeats the purpose of why Christ died once for all.

And, then there are all kinds of beliefs in between. I tend to fall in that "in between" state, not because of some doctrine I was taught by my parents or my church, but because of time spent in the word searching this out on my own asking God for answers. I am not saying my answers are the right answers, but this is the conclusion I have reached:

We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works - cool! I don't earn my salvation. No amount of good that I can do can earn my way into heaven. My good would never outweigh my bad. But, faith is not just an emotional experience or an intellectual assent to something nor is it a feeling I have. Faith is action. If I say that I believe Jesus died for me on the cross so that I could be free from the penalty of and the bondage to sin, and then I continue to live in sin, then I don't really believe, do I? There has to be a transformation. It does not mean sinless perfection. But, it means I have turned away from living a sinful lifestyle and I am walking in the direction of obedience to God. Sure, I'll slip and fall some along the way, but when I do, I will pick myself up, turn from my sin, and I'll start on the path again (that's repentance). Repentance keeps me in a right relationship with God. And, everything has as its source, God. God draws us to himself, he gives us the ability to believe and the ability to repent of our sin and he gives us the strength to grow in our relationship with him. So, even our works are from him:

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed

[Trust & Obey]

There is an element of human responsibility. An example I used in another thread is this:

I could go into my office with a stack of fresh pizzas and put them on the conference room table. Then, I could make a announcement that, "whosoever will, let them come and freely eat."

But, only those that take the opportunity to get up and help themselves to the free pizza will have their bellies filled. So, too, is it with the gospel of Christ. Christ has said, "if any many thirsts, let him come unto Me and drink." But, only those who do so will have their thirst quenched. It doesn't mean that the person saved themself, rather it means that they were partakers of the free gift.

Now, one doesn't walk away from Christ and say within himself, "boy that was good water... What a treat I found for myself." Rather, they say, "boy that was some satisfying water... thanks be to Jesus for giving it to me."

That is true... we have to receive the gift of salvation. We have to reach out and take what God has provided. That is not really what is being taught by FOM and others, though. They are teaching that we have to work to maintain our salvation in order to worthy of eternal life, which is absolutely anathema to the Gospel and completely nullifies grace and Christ's work of redemption on the cross.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shiloh, I agree with you 100% on this. That was my point with the last contrast in "gratitude" for the gift.