What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[EricH]

No, actually I don't think I misunderstood when you wrote, "Adam was made a sinner" anymore than I misunderstood your statement regarding Noah, "His obedience is what saved him."

So if he had not built the ark, he would have been saved anyway?

Would God then have given him and his family gills?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe God's purposes would have been achieved anyway. Noah just would have missed out on participating in God's plan. God is not contigient on us in any way. His soveriegn purposes are always achieved. It is we who miss out when we don't go along. Not God

[Trust & Obey]

No, actually I don't think I misunderstood when you wrote, "Adam was made a sinner" anymore than I misunderstood your statement regarding Noah, "His obedience is what saved him."

So if he had not built the ark, he would have been saved anyway?

Would God then have given him and his family gills?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe God's purposes would have been achieved anyway. Noah just would have missed out on participating in God's plan. God is not contigient on us in any way. His soveriegn purposes are always achieved. It is we who miss out when we don't go along. Not God

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. When we look at Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah we see that Lot "lingered" (not wanting to leave) even after being divinely warned. So, what happened? The angels physically removed Lot against His will.

Gen 19:15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

Gen 19:16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

[EricH]

It is like the case of Jonah. God's will was to use Jonah to minister His grace to the Ninevites. Jonah knew this and because he hated them, he engaged in active and purposeful disobedience and went the other way.

God used Jonah's disobedience (He did not condone it, but He used it) to still accomplish his purposes through Jonah. Rather than taking a nice trip to Ninevah, Jonah arrived on the beach in the stomach of a fish. The Ninevites repented and experienced the grace of God through Jonah's preaching even though Jonah resisted to the end. Jonah ended up bitter and alientated, rather than full of joy as a result of participating willingly with God in the process.

But God was still soveriegn and in control.

[Kabowd]

Jonah is a great example and so is God's chosen people, Israel. We can see in the picture of God's relationship with them....they rejected Him and committed adultry against Him, yet they are still His chosen. The book of Hosea tells the beautiful story of how Hosea's marriage was a picture of God and Israel. Though she disobeyed, she was pursued relentlessly and brought back into fellowship with him.

[Guest shiloh357]

What fisher was trying to say here was. 

If  Noah would not have gotten to work on what God told him to do there would have been no faith in what God told him and no salvation from the flood.

Where is fisher? He would not have abandoned his thread.Was he band from the board?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

More to the point, Fisher is teaching salvation by works, and pastes an article that butchers the story of Noah to do it.

[Fisher of Men]

If there's any butchering it's by them who are using desperate and unstable reasonings to deny that Noah would have been destroyed if he had not obeyed.

But it becomes necessary for such desperate measures by virtue of the fact that leaven begets leaven. Once the foundation against the commonsensical easy to understand concept that God's plan was that an ark was necessary has been laid, the rest of the building has to follow suit. Hence, the nonsensical claim that if the ark wasn't built then they would have been saved anyway.

Even a little child knows better.

But the real leaven began at the false interpretation of Eph. 2:8,9 and other verses that the unstable have wrested to separate faith from works which is impossible.

O well you can separate them the same way you can separate the spirit from the body, but then it's dead, isn't it? Faith without works is dead. Noah without works would also have been dead.

But that is at the root of the bad judgment being demonstrated by them trying to find some kind of biblical support for such heresy. What is at the root? The lack of a childlike faith and humility.

He has cursed the proud who do err in judgment.

If any do not consent to wholesome words he is proud.

Noah moved with the clean fear of God and prepared the ark, his salvation.

We are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

So do these desperate folks actually believe that Noah's fear had nothing to do with him being destroyed if he didn't obey the instructions God gave him in order to escape the flood? Was he afraid he would not get as many rewards as those that do obey?

These lame attempts to try to use Jonahs situation, for example, are laughable.

Being swallowed rather holds the message of fearing God. He was severely punished and had to do anyway what he initially refused to do.

Yes, of course I am teaching salvation by works, just like Jesus, and James did. James 2:14. (All the other NT writers also teach the necessity of obedience to the NT in order to be saved, which the unlearned and unstable are calling "works of the law".

I am not teaching salvation by the works of the law (OT) but rather we are to be under the NT law to Christ by his grace and Spirit that enable us to live righteously after the NT definition of righteousness which is not an abstract not real righteousness that "that spirit of antichrist" teaches.

[Fisher of Men]

Rom. 2:6-10

Noone gets in without effort which is work by the definition of those opposing me. However, when Paul spoke of works that don't profit, he was not speaking of the works that Christ said we must do. Otherwise, Jesus didn't really mean many things he said.

Edited July 3, 2005 by Fisher of Men

[nebula]

Fisher -

The problem is this.

If you read Hebrews 11, the focus is faith. "By faith...."

Now, if none of these people acted on their faith, then it would be argued that they never really had faith.

Faith is not a belief. It is an action, a way of life, a motivating force. If there is faith, there is do. If there is no "do," than there is no faith.

In the parable of the talents, the servants who invested the money the master gave them had faith. The servant who buried his talent had no faith.

Faith was evidenced by their deeds.

You see, the contention in your presentation is putting the emphasis in the wrong place.

Yes, we need to do the works of the Lord.

But are you trusting then in your deeds or in the Lord?

[RGR]

Noah moved with the clean fear of God and prepared the ark, his salvation.

You're doing quite a bit of stretching with this though. This ideology of yours is somewhat akin to my saying that I have access to the place of business I'm at because of my keys. Sure the keys allow me to come in and do my job, but the person to whom I actually owe it to would be my manager for GIVING me the keys! Same way with Noah; the ark saved him from the flood, but the ultimate SOURCE of that salvation was God.

[Guest shiloh357]

But the real leaven began at the false interpretation of Eph. 2:8,9 and other verses that the unstable have wrested to separate faith from works which is impossible.

O well you can separate them the same way you can separate the spirit from the body, but then it's dead, isn't it? Faith without works is dead. Noah without works would also have been dead.

There is the problem. No one is trying to separate works from faith. We are separating works from salvation. No one has ever said that works are not necessary in the life of a believer. That is just how you are painting our responses. You are setting straw man arguments.

Noah built the ark by faith. It was an expression of his faith. The Ark was still God's provision.

As for Eph. 2:8,9...

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(Ephesians 2:8-9)

These verses say what we are saying. Salvation does not come from us. It does not stem from ourselves. Salvation is independent of what we do. It is gift, not a reward for service. Because it is a gift, we have no cause to boast. It is man's vanity and pride that causes him to believe that he has something to do with his salvation. Vanity and pride are the leaven out of which your teaching springs.

The following verse says:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(Ephesians 2:10)

Our works are the product of our faith in Christ. They do not save us, inspite of the fact that we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to do them. You seem to be saying that the works that save us, are those good works that we do as we are enabled by God through grace and the empowering of Holy Spirit, and that is absolutely false. The Bible makes no such claims about works. What you are promoting is a false gospel.

You work from the assumption that we have to work in order to attain eternal life, but John 5:24, and 1 John 5: 11-13 both tell me that I have eternal life, right now. It is not something I have to work for. Eternal life is a gift, (Romans 6:23) not a reward that I receive later if I am worthy of it.

We are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Yes, but we are NOT told to work FOR our salvation, with fear and trembling. The Greek word for "work out" means to demonstrate or to put on display. We are to demonstrate our salvation with fear and trembling. We are not working to make ourselves worthy.