What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[Fisher of Men]

Paul is not saying salvation comes without the need of works. He is saying that the works they experience (obedience, loving their neighbor etc as a result of being quickened, Eph. 2:1-3,5) are not of themselves lest they should boast but of Him who has quickened them and enabled them by his grace to perform those works that will keep them out of hell.

Verse 10 qualifies verse 9.

When quoting Eph. 2 people quote 8 and 9 which are an incomplete thought and taken out of context.

Quoting verses 9 and 10 is not an incomplete thought.

We are not saved by works that we can take credit for. We are however saved by works for we are his his workmanship. We were saved to do good works and it is him that works in us that does those good works.

The Israelites were saved to serve Him and then to obtain their promise.

They didn't serve acceptably; they didn't fulfil their duty as was expected after being saved. They therefore did not inherit that for which they were saved.

The OT did not bring the Power of Grace and the Spirit. The NT clarifies the truth and cuts away unnecessary things found in the OT.

What Paul said is true:

If righteousness is come by the law then Christ is dead in vain.

The unlearned on this thread have claimed in effect that this verse means that if it is necessary to obey in order to be righteous and to thereby be saved, then Christ is dead in vain.

When in reality Paul is making reference to the OT when he says "by the law".

Other verses by Paul relating to the OT law are interpreted to apply to ANY law including the NT law. And that interpretation borders on blasphemy.

It is wild to apply "No man is justified by the law" to Christians being obedient to the NT. Paul is making reference to the OT system that has been reformed into the different NT by Jesus.

Wild, I say because it directly contradicts James and Jesus and Peter and Paul.

Isn't it wild to directly contradict He who has initially saved us by claiming that our ultimate salvation is not dependant on whether or not we obey Him?

Noah knew as a matter of life and death that he had to build according to the instructions if he was to live and not perish with the rest of the world.

Fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell, Yea I say unto you, fear him.

Knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade men.

[apothanein kerdos]

Fisher, everytime you talk you kill Christ again (according to Paul).

That is what your theology seeks to do. It is heretical, false, and a lie from Satan.

This has been proven time and time again, yet you continue in your falseness. There is no point in debating you or trying to show you truth, you are so engulfed in the lies of the Devil that you refuse to see the truth of Grace in Christ.

Good luck to you, and I hope someday you come to the realization that your works mean nothing to God.

[Ovedya]

Paul is not saying salvation comes without the need of works. He is saying that the works they experience (obedience, loving their neighbor etc as a result of being quickened, Eph. 2:1-3,5) are not of themselves lest they should boast but of Him who has quickened them and enabled them by his grace to perform those works that will keep them out of hell.

Verse 10 qualifies verse 9.

When quoting Eph. 2 people quote 8 and 9 which are an incomplete thought and taken out of context.

Quoting verses 9 and 10 is not an incomplete thought.

We are not saved by works that we can take credit for. We are however saved by works for we are his his workmanship. We were saved to do good works and it is him that works in us that does those good works.

This has to be one of the worse exegesis of Ephesians 2 that I have ever read.

In verses 1-3 Paul is describing the condition of the believers before their regeneration. He emphasizes the turning point of faith in verse 4 with the words, "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us." In verse 5 Paul makes the clear and unqualified statement, "By grace you have been saved." Verses 6 and 7 qualify verse 5.

These first 6 verses are essentially telling the believers, "You were dead in your sins and offenses. There was nothing you could do about your condition. You were children of Satan! "But God, being rich in mercy..." saved you by His unmerited favor, and seated you in the heavenlies with Christ!"

Verse 7 qualifies the preceding verses, and gives a reason for God's saving grace: That He might display in the ages to come [referring to the millennium] the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

Verse 8 reiterates the fact of God's mercy: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Finally verse 10 reveals the result of God's saving grace, that is His masterpiece. What is God's masterpiece? It is the church! The Greek word for "masterpiece" is poiema. Three guesses what that word means. I'll give you a clue....take out the "i" and the "a".

If you guessed, "poem" then you got it right! The Greek word poiema means, "Something that has been made, a handiwork, or something that has been written or composed as a poem."

The church, God's masterpiece was created in Christ Jesus for good works. What does that mean? First it means that the church was created in Christ. The church is the Body of Christ, with Christ as the essential element, and the believers as the constituents (Eph. 2:15; 4:24; Col. 3:10; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15). Second, the "good works" for which the church was created is verses the works which were formerly out of the law (Titus 2:14; 3:8; 2 Tim. 3:17; 1 Pet. 3:13; cf. 2:14).

Finally, the latter part of verse 10 indicates that the good works were prepared beforehand in order that we would walk in them. This means that the good works are specific in nature, and not just any common "good thing" that can be accomplished by man. Therefore, it must be that these good works are the carrying out of God's will on the earth, and bearing His testimony, as is revealed in the succeeding chapters of Ephesians.

These verses, in totality reveal to us the rich mercy of our God, and the grace afforded to us in Christ Jesus. While we were yet dead in our offenses Christ saved us! Not only so, but He seated us in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus. And further, He broke down every wall of separation between the Jews, Gentiles, and every race upon the earth, and formed them into one Body, which is His masterpiece. That masterpiece was created by Christ on the cross, and is filled with Christ as the element in each member, and is for the carrying out of God's will upon the earth and bearing His testimony.

This is the fulfillment of God's intention in the Old Testament to have a kingdom of priests (1 Pet. 2:5; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; cf. Rev. 20:6; 22:3). The priesthood in the Old Testament is just a shadow of the reality that we have in Christ Jesus today. the Old Testament priesthood carried out the will of the Father and bore His testimony on the earth. Today in the church we are being built up into the household of God, which is a holy priesthood, to bear God's testimony on the earth and to carry out His will.

All of this - each and every part - is of God in Christ Jesus by grace, and...get this: not of ourselves, lest any man should boast. The individual works which we do, and how we carry out God's will upon the earth in the church, as the church, and by the church, is absolutely according to God and out of faith. So finally, again and again, and again, and again, faith precedes good works. The good works are of themselves according to faith; they are the result of a life lived by faith. Yet it is our faith in Christ Jesus that is the factor of our salvation, not the works. Why? Because it is God that extended His rich and unsurpassed mercy and grace to us while we were yet in the midst of our vilest sins and offenses - while we were yet children of the devil! We have nothing of any merit or value!

It is for this reason that we repeat - and we keep repeating - Works are the product of a rich and vicarious living by faith in Christ Jesus. They are the "fruit" of our walking by the Spirit!

[ayin jade]

Great post Ovedya.

[RGR]

And yes, there is a work we can do to get faith.

Fisher, you seem to show a true lack of understanding when it comes to Scripture. But hey, don't let me tell ya, let's let Paul blow the above statement out of the water:

Romans 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

[Kansasdad]

God Bless you Kansasdad. 

I sense in you true sincerity and humility.  Unlike some others, you present an argument for your understanding but do not not do so in a provocative and divisive way. 

Thank you,

You seem to be responding very well to the deluge of posts opposing your understanding.  I just pray that you have really taken the time to read them through and really grasp what Shiloh, Ovedya, Tess and myself are saying. 

 

I would also pray that all those mentioned would as well truly read what I have posted.

It all comes down to the question of by whose Hand are we saved?

Actually I think this is common ground.  It is only through the Grace of God that we are saved, and I have yet to find any poster who has stated anything different.  On this I think we all agree

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God Bless you as well!

Bryan

[Kabowd]

There comes a problem though when someone suggests that grace can be earned.

[Kansasdad]

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For by grace are ye saved through faith. This clearly states that it is because of Gods grace, his gift to us, that we are welcomed into the fellowship with him. BUT it is conditional on us having faith.

And that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works,lest any man should boast. Grace is not of man, Grace is a gift of God, you can do nothing to deserve it, including our faith is not sufficient to deserve Gods grace. Otherwise one could boast to have more faith than another, and therefore have more Grace. Grace is not earnable, it is a gift

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. This tells us why God created us. He created us so that we might do the good works of Jesus Christ. That was the very purpose we were ordained to do. But God allows us the choice to not do them, and he warns us of the consequences of that decision.

I do not find contradiction in this verse.

God Bless

Kansas Dad

[Fisher of Men]

And yes, there is a work we can do to get faith.

Fisher, you seem to show a true lack of understanding when it comes to Scripture. But hey, don't let me tell ya, let's let Paul blow the above statement out of the water:

Romans 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you telling me that nobody knows the work we can do to get faith?

Everything about our salvation revolves around works. After hearing the gospel message, you had to make a conscious decision to do something. Do you know what that something was. Without that work, you would not have repented (a work) prayed (a work) sought him for the Spirit (a work) and been baptized (a work).

Ovedya, There were some very serious flaws in your explanation of Eph. 2.

You left out a major component in what Paul is saying in Eph. 2:1-3; those deeds of walking according to the prince of the power of the air thereby making them children of disobedience was no longer a reality. Hence the definition of saved in this chapter means saved from committing those sins since they were no longer doing them. But leaving it out is crucial in order to justify the heresy that he came to save us in spite of our sin instead of FROM our sin.

Let's suppose we were talking about different means of travel. Let's say air travel and traveling by land.

When we speak of air travel we know that machinery is involved making it possible to travel that way.

It's all about words and how they are understood.

If I say I prefer to travel by air am I going to be accused of claiming that I can spread my arms and take off like a bird?

But you see that is the ignorant way in which Paul's writings are taken.

When he speaks of being justified by faith, the ignorant have assumed that there is nothing else to it the same way if I say I'm going by air, it could be construed that no machinery is involved.

In Romans 5 when Paul speaks of being justified by faith, He is speaking to those who had heard, believed, repented, were baptized, received the Holy Ghost and were walking in newness of life. Yes they were justified, they were right with God. It all started with and is attributed to faith in Jesus which made it possible and by which all of these things depend.

The new system (NT) is represented by the term justified by faith which is understood to mean that certain works are necessary in order to get there and in order to stay there.

The old system (OT) is represented by the term "the works of the law" by which no man is justified.

Hence we see the difference between what Paul is referring to in Rom. 3 and what James is referring to in chapter 2.

Paul is saying that since Jesus has come, a person cannot be justified by obeying the OT. In order to be right with God a person must accept the sacrifice for sins through faith in Jesus and accept his system; repentance baptism, receiving of the Holy Spirit and continuing to be obedient to the NT.

However morally correct a person can be outside of accepting Jesus, their good works don't mean anything for their sins are still hanging over their heads, they having not been forgiven and regenerated as a result of faith in Jesus. Hence, no man is justified by the law.

James is not referring to the same thing as Paul was when he said that works ARE necessary for justification giving us Abrahams example of obedience. (James 2)

James was making reference to obedience to the NT which does justify us and Paul was making reference to obedience to OT things:

1) outside of faith in Jesus or

2) OT things that are obsolete or contradictory to the new and better NT.

These things do NOT justify (puts one in right standing with God.)

Submitting to Christs words initially by faith; repentance, etc. and consciously making effort by faith and grace to continue in that obedience to his word in all areas of our behaviour after being initially saved DOES justify.

As long as Noah was working, he was at peace with God and was assured that God would see him and his family through. He had a good conscience.

Paul is saying the same thing in Rom. 5:

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

When reading "justified by faith", don't forget the airplane.

[EricH]

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works,lest any man should boast.    Grace is not of man, Grace is a gift of God, you can do nothing to deserve it, including our faith is not sufficient to deserve Gods grace.  Otherwise one could boast to have more faith than another, and therefore have more Grace.  Grace is not earnable, it is a gift

The "it is a gift of God" can either point to faith (the nearest logical referent) or our salvation (the main verb of the clause). It does not point to grace. Since "you are saved" is the main verb it makes most sense to me that "it" points to the main verb.

We are saved:

1. By grace (unmerited favor)

2. Through faith

3. Not of ourselves

4. It is a gift from God

The grammar and flow of the passage makes your interpretation highly unlikely. Most commentators I read indicated the "it" could only point to faith, or the main verb, not grace. Most favored salvation since both grace and faith are modifiers of the main verb. In other words Paul is talking about our salvation. It is the topic. Every descriptor he places in the clause describes the salvation. The only reason for pointing "it" to grace would be that it supports your theology. It doesn't fit normal grammar rules