CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE vs. JEWISH TRADITION

[BibleGuy]

34 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

And why would I ever return to the old when I have and ALWAYS will have the only sacrifice I need .     I did not do this sacrifice .  JESUS DID .

and in the time to come , why would I need a return to the blood of bulls and goats .    WHEN MY LORD comes or I die ,  EITHER WAY I wont need that ever again nor do I now .

For when my time is up , when my hour has been spent ,   THE ONLY SACRIFCE that saved me and kept me safe , WAS JESUS and IS JESUS .

And when I am gone and my time is up ,  OR whether I live and see HIS DAY , either way ,   I have ALL I NEED , HE and HIS SACRIFICE BEING ALL I NEED .

ON that day , in that hour whether awake or already asleep ,  ON that day when the ONLY REASON I WAS SAVED does appear ,   ITS A JOY FEST FOR ME .

TILL then may all be ongaurd they are not caught up with the need to ever make sacrifice of animals again .  MY LORD PAID THE PRICE WITH HIS BLOOD , and I shall reap the REWARD

OF HIS DOING .  OF HIS DOING ALONE . 

"And why would I ever return to the old when I have and ALWAYS will have the only sacrifice I need ."

Because Jesus requires NEW AND OLD....(Mt.13:52)....not NEW REPLACES OLD.

Jesus NEVER stated that the sacrifices are permanently terminated...

Of COURSE Jesus blood ALONE takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7;Heb.10:4).

But that's no excuse to oppose the animal sacrifices Jesus comes to restore (Mal.3:4).

 

WHY restore them?

They are an ONGOING shadow (Col.2:17;Heb.10:1) pointing to the ULTIMATE sacrifice of Christ Himself.

 

"I did not do this sacrifice .  JESUS DID ."

Of COURSE Jesus is the once-for-all sacrifice.

But that's no excuse to oppose the animal sacrifices Jesus comes to restore (Mal.3:4).

 

"why would I need a return to the blood of bulls and goats . "

God does not lie.  It is prophesied (Dt.30:1-8;Zec.14;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Mal.3:4).

 

" THE ONLY SACRIFCE that saved me and kept me safe , WAS JESUS and IS JESUS ."

Yes, ONLY the blood takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7).

But that's no excuse to oppose the animal sacrifices Jesus comes to restore (Mal.3:4).

After all, Jesus DESIRES sacrifices for people of all nations (Is.56:7 cited at Mk.11:17).

Let's not oppose what Jesus desires.

 

"ITS A JOY FEST FOR ME ."

Yes...and we rejoice in Torah (Ps.119:162).

 

"TILL then may all be ongaurd they are not caught up with the need to ever make sacrifice of animals again .  "

Then Paul was wrong? (Ac.21)

THOUSANDS of Christians were wrong? (Ac.21:20)

The Christian Levitical Priests were wrong? (Ac.6:7)

The prophets are wrong? (Dt.30:1-8;Zec.14;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Mal.3:4).

 

I don't think so.

Sure, Jesus' blood ALONE takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7)....

But that's no excuse to oppose the animal sacrifices Jesus comes to restore (Mal.3:4).

blessings...

 

[JustPassingThru]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

Torah applies to HUMANS in the PHYSICAL and MATERIAL WORLD, including sacrifices (which Jesus comes to restore,

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!

But, I'm a "new creation" in Christ:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.  2 Cor 5:17

My "old" man is dead, ...the "real" me, my soul/spirit are living in this clay vessel and this "pilgrimage" to my new home and my new body is almost over, ...and soon to be redeemed by my Master!

Maranatha Lord Jesus, ...and claim your "purchased" property... 

[dhchristian]

18 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Wrong.  Torah is NOT sin (Rom.7:7).

Right, Romans 8:2, The Torah= "the Law of sin and death" You cannot quote Romans 7 without it leading to Romans 8, Because Paul is describing our Journey to Christ, He then goes into discussing Israel immediately after that (Chap. 9-11), Like a Book, you have to follow the progression of the teaching, and then has his epiphany in Romans 11 of God's Plan. 

You Begin with this wrong foundational assumption which throws the rest of your theology off, and until you correct that you will not understand the full Truth of the Gospel, what it means to Continue in the Faith, and be Sanctified By the Spirit into Holiness, not of our own works and effort but of yielding to His Work in us and Submitting ourselves to the Law of the Spirit of Life. 

You need to correct this in your theology, and the Whole Word of God will come alive including the Law and the Prophets and the New Testament writings.

[Resurrection Priest]

It's also OK to NOT offer animal sacrifices.   Such are NOT NECESSARY for salvation. 

Millions of human beings will be in the kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah, who never once offered a dead animal or such blood.  Many of those believers lived and died during the 40 years between Christ's death and the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. 

Jesus Christ my High Priest in the Most Holy Place, has "made atonement" for me.  So I will wait until He returns.  Then He can tell me if I should pull frightened animals to a Temple on this earth (made with hands) to wave their blood towards His throne.  If HE tells me to do that - I will.  But I seriously do NOT BELIEVE that He will want that - ever again. 

 

Paul writes to Gentile believers who have been taken in by the circumcision party.

"Tell me, you who desire to be under the law" (Galatians 4:21).  No one would desire to be under "the law of sin and death".   So Paul is using "under the law" in this context, to mean "under" the system of (they supposed) "justification by works of the law".  He calls that system a "slave woman".  

Some teach that Paul is only warning against the Oral Torah of traditions taught by the Scribes and Pharisees.  I do not agree.  I believe Paul is teaching that "no one is justified by works of the law" - ANY works of "the law" - even the LORD's Torah.    One is justified ONLY through the blood of Christ. 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Resurrection Priest

[turtletwo]

2 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

MY LORD PAID THE PRICE WITH HIS BLOOD

Amen.

1 Peter 1:18-19

"knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."

Silver, gold, animal sacrifice...these all pale in comparison to His blood. Once Jesus atoned for sin, it was done for all time...verses 6, 12 & 14

Hebrews 10:4-6 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

(Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will)

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin, You had no pleasure.

Hebrews 10:10-14 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 But every priest stands daily ministering and repetitively offering the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 

12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. 

13 Since that time He has been waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool. 

14 For by one offering He has forever perfected those who are sanctified.

[turtletwo]

Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. All the animal sacrifices in scripture simply pointed to His.) This is a poem I wrote Him.

 

The Sacrifice, The Highest Price (A Prayer To The Lamb Of God)

 

Oh Lamb of God, so perfect

Who deserved man's adoration

Instead you received mockery

And cruel degradation

 

They stripped You of all clothing

They whipped You violently

They put You on a splintered cross

To die for such as me

 

I marvel at Your anguish

Your beyond words agony

I'm grateful for Your Blood that flowed

Upon that wretched tree

 

Without it, there would be no hope

No way I could atone

The sacrifice, the highest price

Was paid by You alone

 

 

 

•  

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, turtletwo said:

Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. All the animal sacrifices in scripture simply pointed to His.) This is a poem I wrote Him.

 

The Sacrifice, The Highest Price (A Prayer To The Lamb Of God)

 

Oh Lamb of God, so perfect

Who deserved man's adoration

Instead you received mockery

And cruel degradation

 

They stripped You of all clothing

They whipped You violently

They put You on a splintered cross

To die for such as me

 

I marvel at Your anguish

Your beyond words agony

I'm grateful for Your Blood that flowed

Upon that wretched tree

 

Without it, there would be no hope

No way I could atone

The sacrifice, the highest price

Was paid by You alone

 

 

 

•  

And may the saints BASK IN THIS ONE MORE TIME . 

[BibleGuy]

21 hours ago, Sonshine said:

@BibleGuy  I don’t believe animal sacrifices will ever be needful again.  Why would they be?  Jesus died to take these away…forever.  I would suggest you read Hebrews 10 and then we can discuss any scripture therein you want.  Does that sound good to you?

 

" I don’t believe animal sacrifices will ever be needful again.  "

The prophets believe in it!  (Dt.30:1-8;Zec.14;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66).

Jesus comes to RESTORE those very sacrifices "as in the days of old, as in former years" (Mal.3:4).

Paul condoned a sacrifice-laden-vow to prove he walked "orderly according to the law" (Ac.21), implying Paul UPHOLDS animal-sacrifice-Torah.

THOUSANDS of 1st-century Christians were zealous for ALL Torah (thus including sacrifices, Ac. 21:20).

Some Christians are even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7).

 

" Why would they be?"

It's an ONGOING SHADOW (PRESENT TENSE in Col.2:17;Heb.10:1).  The shadow IS (not WAS).  It CONTINUES to point to Christ who is the ultimate once-for-all sacrifice whose blood alone takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7).

 

"Jesus died to take these away…forever."

Well...now you can see why your position in unbiblical.  Just look up the passages I've cited here.

 

"I would suggest you read Hebrews 10 and then we can discuss any scripture therein you want.  Does that sound good to you?"

Sure!

Heb. 10:1 has PRESENT TENSE in reference to the shadow.  Thus, the shadow CONTINUES into the New-Covenant era.

Heb. 10:8 has PRESENT TENSE in reference to ongoing Levitical sacrifices.  Thus, the sacrifices CONTINUE into the New-Covenant era.

Heb. 10:15-16 has the SPIRIT testifying that we properly OBEY TORAH.  That includes sacrifices!

Heb. 10:26 confirms sin is bad.  Sin is violation of Torah (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4;Is.42:24).  So STOP SINNING!  OBEY TORAH!  That includes Levitical sacrifices.

Heb. 10:29 confirms we should NOT trample the Son of God (who requires all Torah!  Mt.5:19).  So OBEY Torah!  That includes Levitical sacrifices.

Heb. 10:29 confirms we should NOT disrespect the blood of the Covenant (Lk.22:20) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33).  So OBEY Torah!  That includes Levitical sacrifices.

Heb. 10:29 upholds the SPIRIT who leads us to obey all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27), thus including Levitical sacrifices.

Heb.10:29 upholds the SPIRIT who testifies we obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16); that includes Levitical sacrifices.

Heb. 10:29 upholds the SPIRIT; the SPIRIT opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13); the flesh opposes Torah (Rom.8:7); so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience; so the Spirit leads us to OBEY Torah.  So obey Torah!  Even Levitical sacrifices.

Heb. 10:29 upholds the SPIRIT; and the Spirit affirms that, in the New Covenant, Torah is obeyed "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27); so OBEY Torah...even Levitical sacrifices.

Heb. 10:29 upholds the SPIRIT; the Spirit is consonant with proper animal sacrifices (Ps. 51:11,19); Paul applies the Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16). So OBEY Torah....even Levitical sacrifices.

Heb. 10:29 upholds GRACE.  Grace is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34).  HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Zep.2:3;Ps.25:9;Ex.33;13).  So obey Torah!   That includes Levitical sacrifices....

Heb. 10:38 affirms we should live by FAITH (citing Hab.2:4).  And FAITH is of TORAH (Ps.119:30,86,138).  Jesus agrees (Mt.23:23).  Moses agrees (given Dt. 32:20).  Paul agrees (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

So OBEY Torah in faith....that includes Levitical sacrifices.

 

Thanks for bringing up Heb.10!

Lot's of important points there....

 

Again, sure....ONLY the blood takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7)...but that's no excuse to disobey Christ, the Spirit, the Father, the Prophets, the Apostles, and the pattern of the 1st-century church.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

21 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Right, Romans 8:2, The Torah= "the Law of sin and death" You cannot quote Romans 7 without it leading to Romans 8, Because Paul is describing our Journey to Christ, He then goes into discussing Israel immediately after that (Chap. 9-11), Like a Book, you have to follow the progression of the teaching, and then has his epiphany in Romans 11 of God's Plan. 

You Begin with this wrong foundational assumption which throws the rest of your theology off, and until you correct that you will not understand the full Truth of the Gospel, what it means to Continue in the Faith, and be Sanctified By the Spirit into Holiness, not of our own works and effort but of yielding to His Work in us and Submitting ourselves to the Law of the Spirit of Life. 

You need to correct this in your theology, and the Whole Word of God will come alive including the Law and the Prophets and the New Testament writings.

WRONG!  The Torah is NOT SIN (Rom.7:7).

 

There are TWO TORAHS:

TORAH#1: The Torah of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:15-19)

TORAH#2: The Torah of righteous obedience and life (Dt.30:15-19)

Rom. 8:2 merely proves that Paul opposes TORAH #1.

Paul REQUIRES Torah #2!  (2Ti.3:16).

In fact, that SAME CHAPTER has Paul stating that the Spirit opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13); the flesh opposes Torah (Rom.8:7); so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience; so the Spirit leads us to OBEY Torah!

Paul says Torah-obedience (Dt.30:14) IS the word of faith he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Paul AFFIRMS the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33).

Paul even condones a sacrifice-laden vow to prove he "walks orderly according to the law" (Ac.21); thus, you should likewise imitate this Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

 

"You Begin with this wrong foundational assumption which throws the rest of your theology off"

Was Jesus' theology "off"?  (Mt.5:19)

 

"understand the full Truth of the Gospel"

TORAH is truth (Ps.119:142).  PAUL applies this Psalm to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

The GOSPEL is the word preached by Paul....which includes TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

"what it means to Continue in the Faith,"

FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138).

 

"Sanctified By the Spirit "

The SPIRIT testifies we obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16), even all TORAH ORDINANCES (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

After all, the Spirit opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13); the flesh opposes Torah (Rom.8:7); so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience; so the Spirit leads us to OBEY Torah!

 

"into Holiness"

Be HOLY means OBEY TORAH (1Pe.1:16 applies Lev. 11 to you!)

 

"not of our own works and effort but of yielding to His Work in us and Submitting ourselves to the Law of the Spirit of Life. "

Yes!  And we SERVE IN THE SPIRIT! (Rom.7:6).......serve what?  TORAH! (Rom.7:25)

 

"You need to correct this in your theology"

Do we need to correct Jesus? (Mt.5:19)

 

" the Whole Word of God will come alive including the Law and the Prophets and the New Testament writings."

We LIVE (Mt.4:4) because we OBEY TORAH (Dt. 8:3 refers to TORAH).

Jesus was not joking (Lk.10:25-28).

 

And look what happens to those who OPPOSE Torah (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).  DON'T go there!

 

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

21 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

It's also OK to NOT offer animal sacrifices.   Such are NOT NECESSARY for salvation. 

Millions of human beings will be in the kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah, who never once offered a dead animal or such blood.  Many of those believers lived and died during the 40 years between Christ's death and the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. 

Then He can tell me if I should pull frightened animals to a Temple on this earth (made with hands) to wave their blood towards His throne.  If HE tells me to do that - I wJesus Christ my High Priest in the Most Holy Place, has "made atonement" for me.  So I will wait until He returns. ill.  But I seriously do NOT BELIEVE that He will want that - ever again. 

 

Paul writes to Gentile believers who have been taken in by the circumcision party.

"Tell me, you who desire to be under the law" (Galatians 4:21).  No one would desire to be under "the law of sin and death".   So Paul is using "under the law" in this context, to mean "under" the system of (they supposed) "justification by works of the law".  He calls that system a "slave woman".  

Some teach that Paul is only warning against the Oral Torah of traditions taught by the Scribes and Pharisees.  I do not agree.  I believe Paul is teaching that "no one is justified by works of the law" - ANY works of "the law" - even the LORD's Torah.    One is justified ONLY through the blood of Christ. 

 

 

"It's also OK to NOT offer animal sacrifices. "

It's NOT ok to sin....and NOT offering required sacrifices is SIN (given Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4;Is.42:20).

So, when properly observable, we must OBEY all Torah (even sacrificial Torah, as the 1st-century church DID....Ac.21:20;Ac.6:7).

 

Don't worry!  Our diaspora will end...and we WILL again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8), thus including Levitical animal sacrifices...

That's what Jesus comes to restore (Mal.3:4).  The restoration of ALL things (Ac.3:21)....including 100% of ALL Torah (given Dt. 30:1-8).

 

"Such are NOT NECESSARY for salvation. "

Sure....in our present disapora....we can't obey some portions of the Torah.....

Don't worry!  Our diaspora will end...and we WILL again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8), thus including Levitical animal sacrifices...

 

"Millions of human beings will be in the kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah, who never once offered a dead animal or such blood. "

Of course!

But Don't worry!  Our diaspora will end...and we WILL again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8), thus including Levitical animal sacrifices...

 

" Many of those believers lived and died during the 40 years between Christ's death and the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. "

Of COURSE!  God forgives unintentional sin (Nu.15:24)....and God knows that some Torah portions are NOT observable in diaspora....

But Don't worry!  Our diaspora will end...and we WILL again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8), thus including Levitical animal sacrifices...

 

"If HE tells me to do that - I wJesus Christ my High Priest in the Most Holy Place, has "made atonement" for me.  So I will wait until He returns. ill.  But I seriously do NOT BELIEVE that He will want that - ever again. "

Don't just believe me.   Believe the PROPHETS (Dt.30:1-8;Zec.14;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.6;Mal.3:4;etc.)

Moses is NOT a false prophet.  Dt. 30:1-8 is yet FUTURE.  We WILL again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8), thus including Levitical animal sacrifices...

It's ok to believe the prophets!

It's BAD to oppose and contradict the prophets.

Please stop.

 

""Tell me, you who desire to be under the law" (Galatians 4:21). "

UNDER THE LAW (in Galatians) refers to those who OBEY LAW WITHOUT FAITH (Gal.3:10-11).  Of COURSE that's bad!

Torah REQUIRES Faith! (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138).

So OBEY TORAH IN FAITH, because Paul says TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the very word of faith Paul preaches (citing Dt.30:14 at Rom.10:8).  And that includes Levitical sacrifices....just as Paul modeled for us (Ac.21).  IMITATE that model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

And have FAITH just like the FAITH of Abraham....which included obedience to God's TORAHS (Ge.26:5).  So OBEY Torah available to you, just as Abraham obeyed Torah available to him.  And that includes sacrifices, when properly observable.

 

"No one would desire to be under "the law of sin and death"."

Then stop SINFULLY DISOBEYING (Dt.30:15-19;Rom.8:2).

OBEY and so be under the righteous law of obedience and LIFE! (Dt.30:15-19).

Jesus expects you to LIVE (Mt.4:4) because you OBEY TORAH (Dt.8:3 references TORAH).

After all, Paul requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16)....and that includes SACRIFICES when properly observable....just as Paul modeled for us.

 

"So Paul is using "under the law" in this context, to mean "under" the system of (they supposed) "justification by works of the law". 

Almost!  Paul is using the "under the law" in this context, to mean "under" the system of "justification by works of the law WITHOUT FAITH".

That's why Paul requires justification by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER.

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"He calls that system a "slave woman". 

No, he calls the OLD COVENANT (Gal.4:24) the SLAVE.

We now have the NEW Covenant, not the OLD Covenant (Heb.8:13).

But it's the SAME TORAH (Jer.31:33).

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

Torah was widely disobeyed in the Old Covenant (Heb.8:9).

Torah is properly OBEYED in the New Covenant (Heb.8:10;10:15-16).

And that includes Levitical sacrifices, when properly observable, just as Paul modeled, and just as Jesus desires (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17) for people of all nations.

Let's STOP opposing what Paul models and Jesus desires.

 

"Some teach that Paul is only warning against the Oral Torah of traditions taught by the Scribes and Pharisees.  I do not agree.  I believe Paul is teaching that "no one is justified by works of the law" - ANY works of "the law" - even the LORD's Torah. "

WRONG.  You ignored the context of Gal.3:10-11.  Paul uses "works of the law" to refer to "FAITHLESS WORKS OF THE LAW".

Thus, Paul requires LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER for justification.

Not law without faith (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith without works of law (says Jas.2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

Torah-obedience IS sufficient for eternal life.

Jesus did NOT lie (Lk.10:25-28).

Because Torah requires FAITH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138) in the MESSIAH (Dt.18:15) who requires faith in the Messiah (Jn.3:16) AND obedience to all Torah (Mt.5:19).

BOTH.

FAITH AND TORAH.

TOGETHER.

THAT is why PROPER Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).

Jesus was not lying (Lk.10:25-28).

 

"One is justified ONLY through the blood of Christ. "

Rather, we are justified by law (Rom.2:13) AND Faith (Rom.5:1) AND Grace (Rom.3:24) AND the blood (Rom.5:9) AND the Spirit (1Cor.6:11).

ALL.

TOGETHER.

Let's stop picking-and-choosing.

No more Hometown Christian Buffet.

It's a PACKAGE DEAL!

ALL!

blessings...