The Trouble with Tribulation

[dhchristian]

10 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 when the Tribulation and plagues end and the Wrath of God begins  Show us this in scripture and perhaps someone will believe it. In other words, it is a theory, but will it FIT?

Hi Iamlamad,

Wrath of God:

The key to understanding when the Wrath of God begins is Knowing when repentance ends. There are plagues that are meant to lead to repentance, which are an extension of the Mercy of God (The first six trumpets, and the plagues of the two witnesses) , and there are plagues that are the wrath of God on the unrepentant. You are obviously familiar with the Wrath found in the sixth seal, and I agree this is part of it, but not the whole picture. Here are the Other relevant scriptures from Revelation that Sync with the sixth seal.

 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (Rev. 9:20-21)

This is the after the sixth trumpet, which means all the trumpets before were plagues meant to lead to repentance. This coincides with the next verse.... Which is the seventh trumpet... And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev. 11:18)

Next we have the first Plague, which begins as follows. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (15:1)

NOTICE, these are the "last plagues" As I said earlier, the first plagues, namely the 6 trumpets and the plagues of the two witnesses are not the wrath of God, so we have a clear divide here of repentance plagues and Wrath plagues. (Think of the dichotomy between the plagues in Egypt here.) 

Now of importance here in understanding the timing of when these plagues are poured out is that they occur After the Mark of the beast has been implemented, as per Rev. 16:2, which should automatically tell you that the Mark of the beast and the great tribulation associated with it are in the first half of the final week exactly as Matthew 24 outlines. Which places the wrath of God beginning after the first half of the week, after the sixth seal, after the sixth trumpet after the two witnesses are resurrected, after that earthquake that results and leads to repentance after their death. Let me break this down for you. 

1. So Now we can see the wrath of God beginning after the sixth seal. You agree with this so need to go in depth.

2 The wrath of God Begins After the sixth Trumpet and the two witnesses resurrection, and is the Seventh Trump as the verse (11:18) clearly states as the Arrival of his wrath.

3 The Wrath of God begins After the mark of the beast is implemented because the seven plagues are all part of the wrath of God, and the first Plague deals with those who have taken the mark and worshipped the beast.

4. The great tribulations goal is to lead to repentance as is the purpose of all tribulation. The great tribulation occurs before the wrath of God, and before the sixth seal as per Rev. 7:14.

5. all of this syncs exactly with the order of events in Matthew 24, given by Jesus himself.  

6. There is even more to this, and I am still looking for that study I did which I have somewhere on my computer, that will point give you more specifics. The Study was on triangulation in the book of revelation, which is a navigational concept that John, a fishermen would have been familiar with, which Narrows this window for when the wrath begins even further, and adds to it the fall of Babylon, and other events we have discussed here. I Would for now, that you take up this task yourself to triangulate when this is exactly Like I have done here with Wrath of God, Repentance, Plagues and tribulation. Hopefully this will give you some ideas to think about till then. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Hi Iamlamad,

Wrath of God:

The key to understanding when the Wrath of God begins is Knowing when repentance ends. There are plagues that are meant to lead to repentance, which are an extension of the Mercy of God (The first six trumpets, and the plagues of the two witnesses) , and there are plagues that are the wrath of God on the unrepentant. You are obviously familiar with the Wrath found in the sixth seal, and I agree this is part of it, but not the whole picture. Here are the Other relevant scriptures from Revelation that Sync with the sixth seal.

 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (Rev. 9:20-21)

This is the after the sixth trumpet, which means all the trumpets before were plagues meant to lead to repentance. This coincides with the next verse.... Which is the seventh trumpet... And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev. 11:18)

Next we have the first Plague, which begins as follows. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (15:1)

NOTICE, these are the "last plagues" As I said earlier, the first plagues, namely the 6 trumpets and the plagues of the two witnesses are not the wrath of God, so we have a clear divide here of repentance plagues and Wrath plagues. (Think of the dichotomy between the plagues in Egypt here.) 

Now of importance here in understanding the timing of when these plagues are poured out is that they occur After the Mark of the beast has been implemented, as per Rev. 16:2, which should automatically tell you that the Mark of the beast and the great tribulation associated with it are in the first half of the final week exactly as Matthew 24 outlines. Which places the wrath of God beginning after the first half of the week, after the sixth seal, after the sixth trumpet after the two witnesses are resurrected, after that earthquake that results and leads to repentance after their death. Let me break this down for you. 

1. So Now we can see the wrath of God beginning after the sixth seal. You agree with this so need to go in depth.

2 The wrath of God Begins After the sixth Trumpet and the two witnesses resurrection, and is the Seventh Trump as the verse (11:18) clearly states as the Arrival of his wrath.

3 The Wrath of God begins After the mark of the beast is implemented because the seven plagues are all part of the wrath of God, and the first Plague deals with those who have taken the mark and worshipped the beast.

4. The great tribulations goal is to lead to repentance as is the purpose of all tribulation. The great tribulation occurs before the wrath of God, and before the sixth seal as per Rev. 7:14.

5. all of this syncs exactly with the order of events in Matthew 24, given by Jesus himself.  

6. There is even more to this, and I am still looking for that study I did which I have somewhere on my computer, that will point give you more specifics. The Study was on triangulation in the book of revelation, which is a navigational concept that John, a fishermen would have been familiar with, which Narrows this window for when the wrath begins even further, and adds to it the fall of Babylon, and other events we have discussed here. I Would for now, that you take up this task yourself to triangulate when this is exactly Like I have done here with Wrath of God, Repentance, Plagues and tribulation. Hopefully this will give you some ideas to think about till then. 

This is the after the sixth trumpet, which means all the trumpets before were plagues meant to lead to repentance  I think only the woes were "plagues." But John does not really tell us.

Why would you say His wrath "begins" after the 6th trumpet? Did you ever read where God quit the wrath that He began at the 6th seal? I have not. And God is STILL angry (has wrath) at the vials in the second half of the week, only I think He has MORE wrath now!  He never QUIT having wrath from the 6th seal to the time Jesus returns to Armageddon.  Therefore, I think the proper understanding of wrath in chapter 11 would be "The nations are angry, and You, God, are angry" or "the nations were angry, and you Lord have wrath. Many times this same Greek word was translated as "came." It is a Greek Aorist tense verb that is not inflected to show ANY timing information at all.  All we can say is, the nations have wrath, and God has wrath, because we know His wrath started at the 6th seal. 

NOTICE, these are the "last plagues" As I said earlier, the first plagues, namely the 6 trumpets and the plagues of the two witnesses are not the wrath of God, so we have a clear divide here of repentance plagues and Wrath plagues.   I don't think so. "did not repent" is mentioned twice in chapter 16. I think God would hope for repentance any time.  Sorry, but if God's wrath began at the 6th seal, then ALL the trumpet judgments came WITH His wrath. There is no way around this. ALL plagues come with God's wrath. God is not going to kill 1/3 of earth's population just because it was a bad day for Him. He has WRATH, and that 6th trumpet certainly comes with wrath.  Why would God send flying, stinging beasties that make men want to die? He has wrath.  If you can find where He QUIT being angry, perhaps you might have something....but you can't find that.

After the Mark of the beast has been implemented, as per Rev. 16:2  Yes, this first vial is pour out AFTER the mark. The vlals come LATE in the last have to SHORTEN those days of GT.

which should automatically tell you that the Mark of the beast and the great tribulation associated with it are in the first half of the final week exactly as Matthew 24 outlines.  Now you have gone off into human reasoning and left the intent of the scriptures.  Where do we read of the mark? It is late in chapter 13, which tells us they do not get the mark set up immediately after the Beast emerges at the midpoint of the week. Understand, NO ONE will know who the Beast is until someone enters the temple and declares he is GOD. It is then, AFTER that abomination, that John saw the BEast emerge. Therefore, according to John, the Beast does not exist as the Beast in the first half of the week - he only BECOMES the Beast after the abomination that will divide the week.  The Beast emerges, right after Satan is cast down. Satan will possess the man of sin and he will BECOME the Beast - right after the midpoint.

Then, some unknown time later, the false prophet will show up. Then, after some time, the image is built and the mark is created. These things are not going to be done overnight. FINALLY, after the warning of chapter 14, the mark will be enforced and the beheaded will begin to show up in heaven. You seem to want the beheaded to show up in the seals; sorry, that is imagination, not scripture.  All this REALLY tells us is that the mark comes before the 7 plagues. And that is exactly John's order too.

as Matthew 24 outlines.  Sorry, but you will have to show us this verse by verse in Matthew.  I don't think Matthew shows us this at all.

Which places the wrath of God beginning after the first half of the week, after the sixth seal, after the sixth trumpet after the two witnesses are resurrected,   DH, this is MYTH! You are rearranging and this theory will be proven wrong!  God's wrath begins when the DAY of His wrath begins, which is at the 6th seal.  DH, you cannot get to ANY trumpets until the 7th seal is first opened, because the trumpets are written INSIDE the book. Neither can you rearrange the trumpets: they are numbered.

DH, I have a novel idea: let's just take Revelation in the order given! God's wrath BEGINS with the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal, and it continues on through the time Jesus fights at Armageddon. Period and end of the Wrath story.  No amount of human reasoning can redo what John has written. God is angry with every trumpet judgment, every vial judgment, and Jesus is angry at Armageddon.

Now, I will agree that God is angry after the first half. He is angry all through the week! Yes, He has wrath after the 6th seal for that is where His wrath began, and the DAY of His wrath.

2. The wrath of God Begins After the sixth Trumpet and the two witnesses resurrection, and is the Seventh Trump as the verse (11:18) clearly states as the Arrival of his wrath.  I think if you were expert in Greek, you would never say this.  His wrath does not "arrive" at the 7th trumpet. It is IS at that time. In other words, He WAS angry before, and is STILL angry at the 7th trumpet.  Anyway, as many times as I have written it, you should know that the death and resurrection of the two witnesses actually happen at the end of the week. But you don't believe verses 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis. You will one day.  Yes, WRITTEN in chapter 11, but as a parenthesis. They BEGIN their testimony right where John first mentions them - just days before the midpoint.

3. The Wrath of God begins After the mark of the beast is implemented because the seven plagues are all part of the wrath of God, and the first Plague deals with those who have taken the mark and worshipped the beast.   Human reasoning but ignoring the text,

His wrath begins at the 6th seal, period. He does not QUIT His anger and restart it!  Yes, the 7 plagues are filled with His wrath, but His wrath did not START there: it started at the 6th seal, continued on with the 7th, then trumpets 1-7, and finally each vial filled with His wrath. But that is not the end: Jesus STILL has wrath at Armageddon.

HOW can you rearrange and make believe you don't? The first plagues were trumpets 5-7, which come in the FIRST HALF of the week.  The mark does not get invented until the SECOND Half of the week. How could you miss this?  Again, I have a novel idea: read the text, then form your theory from the text AS WRITTEN. That way, NO NEED to rearrange.  The mark is MENTIONED first in chapter 13, but even that is after the midpoint. But the mark is not enforced until after chapter 14.

4. The great tribulations goal is to lead to repentance as is the purpose of all tribulation. The great tribulation occurs before the wrath of God, and before the sixth seal as per Rev. 7:14.  Sorry, but this is all just nonsense, because you don't follow the text.  The PURPOSE of the 70th week is to bring Israel to a point when all hope is shattered. Their IDF is gone. They have ONLY GOD or they are gone forever. (Dan. 12) The purpose of the great tribulation? I think it is to force all the fence sitters off the fence and force EVERYONE to choose a side: either FOR or AGAINST God. No one at this point repents, according to John. 

Now, as to your timing: God's wrath begins BEFORE the entire week, and continues PAST the week. So HOW can the GT occure before wrath? It is impossible.

In 7:14 you are mixing up your everyday GT with the days of GT that JESUS spoke of, that would be worse than any other. In chapter 7 the GT they came out of is just like TODAY when people are being martyed just because they love Jesus. You really need to trust John's chronology: it cannot be made any better. Chapter 7 is an intermission between seals 6 & 7. It is John rearranging the setting to FIT the start of the Week and the trumpet judgments. God wants to see TWO THINGs before the 70th week starts: the church must be safely seen in heaven (check!) and the 144,000 must be sealed. (Check!) Both are accomplished in chapter 7, so in chapter 8 the book gets opened and the trumpet judgments begin: EACH with His wrath.

5. all of this syncs exactly with the order of events in Matthew 24, given by Jesus himself.    Not even HARDLY!

DH, sorry to say this, when you write of John's chronology, I can't believe anything you write. It does not follow John's text.

[Gentle-Warrior]

On 10/24/2019 at 1:14 PM, iamlamad said:

I disagree because the scriptures disagree. 

What part of Revelation, chapter 4 to chapter 19, is God's wrath poured out? If we just look up "wrath" we find the first mention in Revelation is at the 6th seal in chapter 6. It is the start of the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord. Nowhere do we find a verse where God's wrath is satisfied and he is no longer angry. 

Therefore, every trumpet judgment comes WITH God's wrath. Then we know ever vial is FILLED with His wrath, so all trumpet judgments and all vials will certainly be a part of God's wrath. This then would be from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - all during God's wrath. 

Where then, in Revelation, are the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of? He said AFTER the abomination. That would then be in the last half of the week. But if we study, we see God warning people not to take the mark, in chapter 14. It just makes sense then that the mark will not be enforced until chapter 15 - and there we see the beheaded just beginning to arrive in heaven.

Therefore, the days of GT are found in the very same chapters where God is very angry. What is this telling us? It is very simple, we cannot separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath accroding to TIME, because they are happening AT THE SAME TIME.  While Satan is venting his wrath by beheading saints, God is pouring out the vials of His wrath.

Agreed that the actual events of Satan's wrath will be different than the events of God's wrath. Satan's wrath is in beheading the saints - while God's wrath is pointed to destroying the sinners on earth  and shorting those days of GT where saints are being slaughtered. 

It would be much better to call this coming 7 year period of time as the 70th week of Daniel, and NOT "the tribulation." 

Why do you assume that Revelation was written for a star trek generation? Do you have chapter and verse to prove this silly assumption?

On 10/24/2019 at 9:31 AM, JoeCanada said:

The Trouble with Tribulation

 

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation…” (2 Corinthians 1:3,4a)

 Both our Lord and the Apostles warned us in Scripture that times of persecution would come upon the people of God. They warned us that tribulation would follow genuine devotion to Christ. Throughout the centuries the authentic followers of Jesus Christ have suffered greatly for their faith. They have been slandered, mocked, beaten, crucified, stoned, ravaged by wild beasts, tortured on the rack, sold into slavery, burned at the stake, and had their heads cut off for the sake of the true Gospel. Even today, all around the world, Christians are suffering horrible tribulation for their devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, more and more, this persecution is coming to America. And because of poor teaching, the American church is ill-prepared to deal with it.

We orthodox evangelicals pride ourselves in our ability to rightly divide the Word of God. We preach and teach the Historical / Grammatical method of interpretation, and rightly so. To us, the idea of reading allegories or other foreign ideas into the text is reprehensible. We also tend to pride ourselves on our ability to weed out theological positions that are purely based on false traditions and cultic mysticism, rather than solid scriptural evidence. This is because we rightly believe the Word of God is the inerrant final authority on all matters of faith and practice. For the most part, orthodox evangelicals contend for these hermeneutical principles in every area of theology, with one exception, eschatology. When it comes to the end times, preachers use all kinds of poetic license to develop their pet theories. No longer do they adhere to the notion that the Bible interprets the Bible; and that context determines the exact meaning of words. With eschatology, they tend to speculate when the bible is silent, and they diminish the clear meaning of God’s Word when it does not fit their narrative. With eschatology, all the rules are thrown out so they can change the meaning of words (just like cult leaders do) to support their aberrant end-time doctrines.

 

I will give you one glaring example of this trend using the word “tribulation.” The most popular end-times scenario, popularized by the late Tim Lehay and Jerry B. Jenkins in their Left Behind series of books goes something like this: The Great Tribulation is a period of future time when God’s wrath is poured out on the earth against unbelievers. This period of time lasts 7 years and marks the rise of the Antichrist. Since Christians are not subject to the wrath of God, all true believers in Christ will be raptured off planet earth just prior to the start of this seven year tribulation period. Sounds good, but there is a serious flaw in this definition of the word “tribulation.” Only a few times in scripture is the word tribulation used to speak of God’s punishment of the wicked. In 2 Thessalonians chapter one, God promises tribulation (affliction) to the ungodly immediately after He appears at His second coming. And in Revelation chapter two, Jesus says He will use tribulation (affliction) as a means of chastisement for the woman called Jezebel and those who follow her. All the rest of the references to tribulation are about Christians suffering affliction for their faith.

 

There is a serious problem with equating the concept of the great tribulation with the wrath of God. Because these ideas are two different concepts. Predominately the word “tribulation” in Scripture means the wrath of demoniacally inspired unbelievers persecuting the true believers of God. Thus, when authentic Christians are persecuted for their steadfast loyalty to the Savior Jesus Christ, they suffer tribulation. This tribulation is the wrath of Satan on genuine born again Christians. But on the other hand, “wrath” is God punishing the wicked for their sins, especially those who persecute true believers. Therefore, one concept is the wrath of God, and the other, the great tribulation, is the wrath of Satan.

Somehow through the writings of John Nelson Darby and C. I. Scofield, these concepts got intermingled and confused. To many evangelicals, Darby and Scofield are prophets of equal worth to the original 12 apostles. To them, when Scofield speaks, God must surrender to his interpretation. This is the kind of false traditionalism that many evangelicals unfortunately like. Since by their tradition, when Scofield speaks the debate is ended. And since Scofield has spoken, there is no need to test the spirits to see if they are of God. But if we really want to be true to our Reformation roots, we must examine what Darby, Scofield, Lehay, Jenkins and other pre-tribulationist say in the light of Scripture, just like anyone else.

Let’s get the definition of “tribulation” and see if it fits the Scofield / Lahay scenario. In Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, the word tribulation means “affliction.” He wrote that the great tribulation is a time when the fury (wrath) of antichristian powers are focused on the Palestinian Jews primarily, and on the Gentile witnesses of God secondarily. In other words, the great tribulation is the distress of God’s people when they are persecuted by the enemies of God. Additionally, in Arndt and Gingrich’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, tribulation is defined by the Greek words thlibo and thipsis to primarily mean the distress of Christians as they are persecuted, afflicted and troubled by outward forces and circumstances. This definition is clearly taught by our Lord as He spoke to his disciples (the church) about the end-times,

“Therefore when you (the church) see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the house-top not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:15-22)

It is therefore evident by the context of Jesus Christ’s words that the great tribulation is defined as a time of horrible persecution of God’s elect, the church, who must flee from the wrath of Satan that comes by way of the Antichrist. The prophet Daniel said this period of time would last 3 ½ years and that “the power of the holy people (saints/elect) [would be] completely shattered.” (Daniel 12:7) Therefore the elect must endure through the great tribulation. This is the plain and correct meaning of both texts. And as the Lord tells us in the Book of Revelation,

“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’” (Revelation 7:13,14)

To come out of something means you first have to be in something. These are Christians who were martyred in the great tribulation. Thus, the great tribulation is not God’s wrath on unbelievers, but Satan’s antichristian wrath upon authentic blood bought believers in Christ. The term “elect” means anyone who is in Christ at the time.

But again, based on the writings of Scofield and other per-tribulation rapture theorists, the great tribulation is equal to the wrath of God. However, there is no evidence of this in Scripture. And because the Apostle Paul tells us Christians are not “appointed to wrath” (1 Thessalonians. 5:9), they assume Christians do not have to suffer through the great tribulation. But there is nothing in Scripture that specifically states every Christian is exempt from tribulation, including the great tribulation. In fact the opposite is true, as the Apostle Paul said, “So that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you suffer.” (II Thessalonians 1:4,5)

Some Christians may be spared persecution in the great tribulation by the Lord in His sovereignty (Revelation 3:7-13), but many others will suffer for Christ. Even today, prior to the great tribulation, many people suffer horrible persecution and tribulation in hostile parts of the world, while other Christians live in relative peace and safety. During the great tribulation, a few pockets of Christians may be spared by God, but most Christians will endure the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen. And as Christ said, unless He shortened those days, no flesh would be spared. But for the sake of the elect (the Church), he shortens those days.

There is a massive multi-million dollar industry dedicated to the assumption that the great tribulation is equal to the wrath of God. These proponents of the pre-tribulation rapture make millions of dollars writing books and making movies assuring Christian they do not have to suffer persecution or tribulation for their faith prior to the rapture. But these massive, complicated and bulky theories are held up by the flimsiest of Scriptural speculation and wordplay. It is like trying to lift the weight of an elephant off the ground using a kite string. No matter how hard you try the weight will break that string. Defining the great tribulation as the wrath of God is the kite string that can’t support the theory. It is the lynchpin that connects the whole thing. Without it, the entire theory falls apart. The Left Behind doctrines are nothing more than giant sand castles, giving people the false hope of evacuation just prior to a tsunami of end-time persecution. So instead of soberly preparing people to face the tribulation to come, the American evangelical church is throwing parties in their fortresses made of sand. Instead of putting on the whole armor of God, the church is putting on its party hat. Instead of making solid disciples, the church is making spiritual revelers, drunk on the wine of end-time myths and fables. Once these notions are dispelled, the entire theory is washed away by the reality of Christ’s sobering predictions.

I believe the Lord is calling us back to His word. Back to counting the costs involved with true discipleship and devotion to Jesus Christ. We need to stop acting like the victory is final, because there is still more to come. We need to stop the elitist mentality that assumes persecution can never happen to us. We need to stop partying like we are already in Heaven. We need to stop the complacency and tom-foolery associated with false security. We need to take off our party hats and put back on the whole armor of God so we can stand in the evil day. We need to remember God has called us to be willing to suffer tribulation for His namesake. We need to be soberly prepared to walk through the great tribulation. We need to understand once again this world is not our home, and that we are only passing through on our way to our glorious reward in the life to come. We need to be prepared, along with our brothers and sisters around the world, to give up everything, even our lives if necessary, to be with the Lord in glory.

The trouble with tribulation is that it is coming our way. Are you spiritually prepared?

 

https://pulpitandpen.org/2017/11/09/the-trouble-with-tribulation/

 

 

Bless you brother. You are one of the few that understand what real tribulations are all about. As an extra, the tribulation that Jesus was talking about in Mat. 24 was to take place in their own generation (Mat. 24:34).

He was not referring to the end of history, but to the end of the old covenant with its accompanying destruction of the temple and all that the temple represented-- because a greater temple had come (Jn 2:19, 1Cor. 3:16, 6:19, Col. 1:27, etc.) 

[iamlamad]

22 minutes ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

Why do you assume that Revelation was written for a star trek generation? Do you have chapter and verse to prove this silly assumption?

Bless you brother. You are one of the few that understand what real tribulations are all about. As an extra, the tribulation that Jesus was talking about in Mat. 24 was to take place in their own generation (Mat. 24:34).

He was not referring to the end of history, but to the end of the old covenant with its accompanying destruction of the temple and all that the temple represented-- because a greater temple had come (Jn 2:19, 1Cor. 3:16, 6:19, Col. 1:27, etc.) 

I have many many verses: just look at each vial and tell when in history it happened. Good luck!

Now look at every trumpet judgment. Tell us when in history it happened. Good luck!

Look at the 6th seal, and tell us when this happened? Good luck!

You see, if we don't use wild imaginations and just use common sense, we know these events have never happened.  So EVERY verse from the 5th seal onward, starting at the 6th seal is FUTURE. Really, that is not a bad word.

Indeed, most of the church world today recognize these things as FUTURE. I agree.

It is probably NOT OK if you view them as history. Why? One day Jesus is coming for those who are looking for Hiim and expecting Him, and they will be caught up to escape what is coming. I would guess, since you think what is coming has already come, you will be left behind. Then you will know.

Why not change your view NOW and be ready?

[iamlamad]

37 minutes ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

Defining the great tribulation as the wrath of God is the kite string that can’t support the theory. It is the lynchpin that connects the whole thing. Without it, the entire theory falls apart. The Left Behind doctrines are nothing more than giant sand castles, giving people the false hope of evacuation just prior to a tsunami of end-time persecution.

I hope you know this is nothing but myth. Why not just follow the scriptures? Did you really READ what I wrote? Let's try again:

WHERE do we see God's wrath BEGINNING? It begins at the 6th seal as the DAY of His wrath or the Day of the Lord.

Where does John show us His wrath ENDS? Sorry, John doesn't.

Therefore God's wrath starts it Rev. 6 and continues on through chapter 16. But in other scriptures we find Jesus has wrath at Armageddon.

Now, what chapters cover the days of GT? Again, not hard to find. We see the beheaded BEGIN to show up in chapter 15, so the days of GT that Jesus spoke of will be during the chapter 15 and 16 events. God will pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days.

But GOD IS ANGRY in those chapters! In fact, while Satan's wrath is at its peak, the beheadings going at a blistering pace, God pours out the vials of His wrath (filled with His wrath) and the days of GT come to a halt.  So while GT is at is peak, God is pouring out the vials of HIS wrath. Therefore the quote above is pure myth: human imagination. 

The truth is, many believers are going to be left behind. Why? Because they are not looking or expecting His coming.

The scriptures that support a pretrib rapture do not make a kite string, rather than are a HUGE anchor chain that cannot be broken by unbelievers.

In other words, it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate the days of Great Tribulation and the days of God's wrath BY TIME: they come at the same time.

Edited October 25, 2019 by iamlamad

[WilliamL]

On 10/24/2019 at 3:36 PM, iamlamad said:

Without a doubt, this group John saw in chapter 7 is the JUST RAPTURED church. In this I agree with him. The problem is, this writer supposes that "great tribulation" can only be ONCE. This is absolutely not true. I think in the mind of God, when there are martyrs, it is "great tribulation."

...The GT written in chapter 7 is just general everyday great tribulation. It is NOT the days of GT Jesus spoke of...

Rev. 7:14 ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης: translated literally, "out of the tribulation/affliction the great."

There is only one THE great tribulation. That is a biblical and grammatical fact.

All of the Seals correspond to the events of the Olivet discourse up to and including the heavenly signs preceding the second coming. All plain to see, if one does not have preconceptions, such as a 70th week all divided up just the way one expects to see it.

[WilliamL]

On 10/24/2019 at 3:36 PM, iamlamad said:

Without a doubt, this group John saw in chapter 7 is the JUST RAPTURED church. In this I agree with him. The problem is, this writer supposes that "great tribulation" can only be ONCE. This is absolutely not true. I think in the mind of God, when there are martyrs, it is "great tribulation."

...The GT written in chapter 7 is just general everyday great tribulation. It is NOT the days of GT Jesus spoke of...

Rev. 7:14 ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης: translated literally, "out of the tribulation/affliction the great."

There is only one THE great tribulation. That is a biblical and grammatical fact.

All of the Seals correspond to the events of the Olivet discourse up to and including the heavenly signs preceding the second coming. All plain to see, if one does not have preconceptions, such as a 70th week all divided up just the way one expects to see it.

[WilliamL]

On 10/24/2019 at 7:32 PM, dhchristian said:

2 The wrath of God Begins After the sixth Trumpet and the two witnesses resurrection, and is the Seventh Trump as the verse (11:18) clearly states as the Arrival of his wrath.

3 The Wrath of God begins After the mark of the beast is implemented because the seven plagues are all part of the wrath of God, and the first Plague deals with those who have taken the mark and worshipped the beast.

Rev. 11:18 NKJV The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged...

Rev. 11:18 NASB And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged...

Rev. 6:17  “For the great day of His wrath has come/came...

The verb is the same in both verses, Aorist Indicative, generally translated in the simple past tense: came.

The dead arise and are judged at the resurrection, which takes place just before the Rapture. The Rapture takes place immediately after the heavenly signs of the 6th seal. So Rev. 11:15 is referring to events already past: both the beginning of wrath, and the judgment of the dead. (See the verses below.) The verse ends with "And should destroy those who destroy the earth", which portends events proceeding from this time onward.

All of the events of the Trumpets and the Seals fall within the period of the Wrath of God. 

Daniel 12:2 “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall be caused to awaken, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.” (For the latter, see Isaiah 66:24 and Micah 7:8-10.)

John 5:28 “…an hour comes in which all the ones in the graves will hear His [the Sonʼs] voice 29 and come forth: the ones having done good things to the resurrection of life, and the ones having done evil things to the resurrection of condemnation.”

For more about the events having to do with the above two verses, go here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1523-the-most-holy-place-the-feast-of-tabernacles-aka-feast-of-ingathering/

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 7:14 ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης: translated literally, "out of the tribulation/affliction the great."

There is only one THE great tribulation. That is a biblical and grammatical fact.

All of the Seals correspond to the events of the Olivet discourse up to and including the heavenly signs preceding the second coming. All plain to see, if one does not have preconceptions, such as a 70th week all divided up just the way one expects to see it.

Then it is very clear, God considers the entire church age as the tribulation, the great.

But keep in mind, for the last half of the 70th week, those words were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus: he had to add more:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved

In other words, these days - the days that will start after the midpoint of the week, will be WORSE than "the tribulation the great." 

Note the true tense of this action of coming: It is PRESENT tense:

CSB
I said to him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

DLNT    And I have said to him, “My lord, you know”. And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great affliction. And they washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

ESV    I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

GW    I answered him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who are coming out of the terrible suffering. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.

HCSB    I said to him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

ISV    I told him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who are coming out of the terrible suffering. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.

NOG    I answered him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who are coming out of the terrible suffering. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.

There are probably a dozen more I could paste. One person who at least thought they were a Greek expert said the meaning in the Greek is that they come "one by one" out of the tribulation the great.

So what is John really telling us? The certainly could not have been raptured or caught up "one by one."  Here is what John was told, they came out of the walk of death during the church age ONE BY ONE as each was born again.  In other words, the angel did not tell where they had JUST come from, as from the earth; he was saying where each of them separately had come from: from living the life of a sinner on earth.

Please take careful note, John does not really GET to those days of GT that will be worse than any other - until chapter 15 when the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven.

If you wish to see this another way, it is OK, but I suspect you will be wrong.

[iamlamad]

On 10/31/2019 at 3:37 PM, WilliamL said:

Rev. 11:18 NKJV The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged...

Rev. 11:18 NASB And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged...

Rev. 6:17  “For the great day of His wrath has come/came...

The verb is the same in both verses, Aorist Indicative, generally translated in the simple past tense: came.

The dead arise and are judged at the resurrection, which takes place just before the Rapture. The Rapture takes place immediately after the heavenly signs of the 6th seal. So Rev. 11:15 is referring to events already past: both the beginning of wrath, and the judgment of the dead. (See the verses below.) The verse ends with "And should destroy those who destroy the earth", which portends events proceeding from this time onward.

All of the events of the Trumpets and the Seals fall within the period of the Wrath of God. 

Daniel 12:2 “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall be caused to awaken, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.” (For the latter, see Isaiah 66:24 and Micah 7:8-10.)

John 5:28 “…an hour comes in which all the ones in the graves will hear His [the Sonʼs] voice 29 and come forth: the ones having done good things to the resurrection of life, and the ones having done evil things to the resurrection of condemnation.”

For more about the events having to do with the above two verses, go here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1523-the-most-holy-place-the-feast-of-tabernacles-aka-feast-of-ingathering/

 

All of the events of the Trumpets and the Seals fall within the period of the Wrath of God.   I agree.

The verb is the same in both verses, Aorist Indicative, generally translated in the simple past tense: came.  This is true, but we must keep in mind, we HAVE no equivalent of the Greek Aorist verbs. They are inflected to show NO TENSE (timing) whatsoever! In other words, there is no timing information given on Aorist tense verbs. We have no such verbs in English: as soon as we say a verb, the timing is given away.

Most of John's verbs in Revelation are Aorist verbs. We can only tell timing then, if one of the few verbs are future tense or past tense - OR if they are Aorist, then by the first mention of the event in the order of John's narrative.

Case in point: the two witnesses: they show up RIGHT THEN in John's narrative. Here John uses future tense verses "will give" and "shall prophecy" to show us their prophecy will be future to the point they just showed up. 

Another example: John's first mention of God's wrath is at the 6th seal. That too is an Aorist verb.  We know His wrath begins there because that is WHERE in John's narrative he mentions God's wrath.  It is before the week begins.

the time came for the dead to be judged...   These are all Aorist tense verbs showing no timing information at all. This is a PROPHESY by the 24 elders speaking of the FUTURE time of judging the dead which we read about in chapter 20.

Edited November 5, 2019 by iamlamad