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JoeCanada

The Trouble with Tribulation

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4 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Alive,

Although we aren't told anywhere in Scripture 'who' the one is that is restraining......I agree that Michael is the best fit for the restrainer.

It seems so to me. I don't believe its the Holy Spirit because He will be convicting individuals of sin later on.

Michael as well as other angels are tasked with nations. Michaels nation is Israel. The man of sin will be focused on Israel. It seems to follow.

I won't be dogmatic about it, but when I looked at this, there was that 'ring of truth' within. Not a loud resounding witness, but a wee one.

:-)

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8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So just before the 6th seal events, jesus comes, the church is taken out of the way, and the next moment it is DAY OF THE LORD.  Notice what Paul tells us: SUDDENLY - a sudden happened when people are saying peace and safety - suddenly the dead in Christ fly up from their graves! The raising of the dead in Christ is going to start a world wide earthquake. (Mat 27:  "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened.)  This earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction." 

So a moment after the dead in Christ are raised, Paul tells us about two different groups of people and what happens in this next moment: those who are IN CHRIST will be caught up, and so forever be with the Lord. But those NOT in christ will be left behind in this worldwide earthquake - Paul's sudden destruction.  It is ONE MOMENT in time for the righteous and the sinner; the church is caught up while the sinner faces sudden destruction.  

Then Paul tells us that this sudden destruction is the very WRATH of God! Remember, God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath: the appointments are to be set for the sinners.  So Paul is telling us that WRATH follows the rapture. I like to say it this way: the rapture will TRIGGER the Day of wrath or the Day of the Lord. 

Therefore, by Paul I KNOW the rapture must come a moment before the 6th seal. 

So just before the 6th seal events, jesus comes

Sorry, this is wrong. Can you show from Revelation that at the 5th seal, which is just before the 6th seal events, that Jesus comes?

The raising of the dead in Christ is going to start a world wide earthquake. (Mat 27:  "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened.) 

From Matt 27...."the earth did quake and the graves were opened"......earthquake first, graves opening second. But you are saying that the graves opening will cause a great earthquake.............graves opening first, earthquake second. 

Therefore, by Paul I KNOW the rapture must come a moment before the 6th seal. 

A moment before the sixth seal??????....... That is still at the 5th seal. You can say a moment or a second, but it's still before the sixth seal, which is during the 5th seal.

At the opening of the sixth seal, ....... there is a great earthquake. There is not a great earthquake at the 5th seal. After the sixth seal is opened, there was a great earthquake, sun became black, stars fall to the earth, sky split apart, every mountain and island moved.........then,  "the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks ' Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne....."................. This is the coming of Jesus, who rides on the clouds, seated on His throne, yet, He is still coming.

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1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

So just before the 6th seal events, jesus comes

Sorry, this is wrong. Can you show from Revelation that at the 5th seal, which is just before the 6th seal events, that Jesus comes?

The raising of the dead in Christ is going to start a world wide earthquake. (Mat 27:  "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened.) 

From Matt 27...."the earth did quake and the graves were opened"......earthquake first, graves opening second. But you are saying that the graves opening will cause a great earthquake.............graves opening first, earthquake second. 

Therefore, by Paul I KNOW the rapture must come a moment before the 6th seal. 

A moment before the sixth seal??????....... That is still at the 5th seal. You can say a moment or a second, but it's still before the sixth seal, which is during the 5th seal.

At the opening of the sixth seal, ....... there is a great earthquake. There is not a great earthquake at the 5th seal. After the sixth seal is opened, there was a great earthquake, sun became black, stars fall to the earth, sky split apart, every mountain and island moved.........then,  "the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks ' Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne....."................. This is the coming of Jesus, who rides on the clouds, seated on His throne, yet, He is still coming.

I don't think they actually SEE Him coming. Most people don't think Jesus will be visible to sinners on earth: He will remain in a cloud. But they recognize all the signs for the start of the day, and they are right. No wonder they are scared. But do they actually SEE Jesus' face? John does not say this. 

You can say a moment or a second, but it's still before the sixth seal, which is during the 5th seal.  Yes, I will agree, the church has been at the 5th seal all this time as martyrs are added.  The 6th seal is still future.  However, the 5th seal gives us a strong hint: they are told they must wait for judgment (the 6th seal) until the very last martyr will have come in. That is going to be at the rapture. The moment after the rapture, the next martyr will be a Day of the Lord martyr. So in effect, they are told they must wait for the rapture and THEN judgment will come. But by that time they will be included in the rapture.

So the church is AT the 5th seal time, then the rapture will come and will trigger the DAy of the Lord - the 6th seal. I get this timing from 1 Thes. 5. Paul gives us timing information there. Remember Paul wrote in his rapture passage in 1 thes. that God is not going to set any appointments with His wrath. WE get caught up; wrath is for those left behind. Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord, then the "sudden destruction," and then no appointments. Paul is showing us that the moment after the dead are raised, WE get caught up,  but those left behind get caught in Sudden destruction which STARTS God's wrath. The only place in Revelation that fits Paul in 1 Thes. 5 is just before the start of the Day of the Lord - the 6th seal.   It was no mistaken then that John SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter in Revelation.

So what if Matthew mentioned the quake first? Rev. 11 tells us of a great earthquake when the Two witnesses rise. Actually, it is not JUST the two witnesses - I think the Old Testament saints rise at the same time - the time of the 7th vial where that worst earthquake EVER hits. It will be when God raises those bodies who died before the flood. The atoms or other particles that once made up those bodies could be spread thousands of miles, and could be hundreds of miles deep! When God instantly brings those bodies together, it is going to cause the world's worst earthquake - just what John describes.  So - Yes, I am saying that the rapture will cause an earthquake. However, you pointed something out: God could not raise those at Jesus death until He rose. But God wanted the earthquake at His death. It is my believe that God put those bodies together and caused that quake, but they could not rise for 3 more days. It is only my opinion.  

There is not a great earthquake at the 5th seal  You have to think this through: Several people who have had visions or supernatural dreams of the rapture speak of an earthquake the moment they are caught up.  The dead in Christ will be raised SO FAST: and then those alive and in christ follow so fast after, the ground will only BEGIN to shake before we are caught up. Only those left behind will be caught in this earthquake.  This is why I say the rapture is only a MOMENT before the earthquake. I also write frequently that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. I think the earthquake starts the Day of the Lord.  However, some think it is the SIGN that the day is soon to follow. I would not argue that point. 

 

Many people thinks He comes AT the 6th seal. I think He comes a moment BEFORE the 6th seal. 

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7 hours ago, Alive said:

It seems so to me. I don't believe its the Holy Spirit because He will be convicting individuals of sin later on.

Michael as well as other angels are tasked with nations. Michaels nation is Israel. The man of sin will be focused on Israel. It seems to follow.

I won't be dogmatic about it, but when I looked at this, there was that 'ring of truth' within. Not a loud resounding witness, but a wee one.

:-)

It IS the Holy Spirit - but He does not leave. Oh, He leaves in the believers in the rapture, for He has promised never to leave; the problem is, the moment after the rapture there will be no believers with Him inside: he will have no one to work THROUGH for a while, and this while will give the man of sin time to be revealed.  I suspect after the rapture, the Holy Spirit will be here - but only as He was here under the Old Covenant. People can still be drawn to God. 

If you want to know what Michael does, at the midpoint of the week, at the sound of the 7th trumpet, He goes to war with Satan. 

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I think it may be presumption that the "church" is present during the seals.  It seems based primarily on the mention of "saints" in Chapter 8, as if saints are only within the church as established at Shavuot/Pentacost.  Especially since the church is never mentioned again after Chapter 3 until the final salutation by John at the end of the book.  There were saints before the New Covenant church was established  at Shavuot / Pentacost  as shown in Matthew 27 and throughout the OT,  and there will be those who come to belief and are considered saints after the Church has been caught away. 

One of the conditions of Yeshua's return is the national recognition by Israel of their rejection of Him and petitioning for His return.  Hosea 5 and Matthew 23.  So by default, those Hebrews that come to faith that results in that national recognition would make them saints also, even though it happens toward the tail end of the tribulation period.  And later, according to Ezekiel 20, when Yeshua actually sets foot on the earth, He will separate out those saints from the rebels of Israel.  Likewise, when He sets foot on the earth, He will gather all the nations (goyim - gentiles) and likewise separate the righteous from the unrighteous according to Joel 3 and Matthew 25.  So again, saints or righteous are in view but it doesn't make them the New Covenant Church which is the Body of Messiah.  Especially in light of Revelation 2 where it says we will rule with a rod of iron along with Yeshua.   The Church proper will participate with Yeshua in those separation events that occur when Yeshua physically returns, but the church is not the focus of those separations.

Edited by OldCoot

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