Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

May I ask this? Do you think Revelation chapters 7, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 are parenthetical?

Dennis, have you ever been to a play, where the curtains are closed, in preparation for the next act? What goes on behind the curtain? The actors (or helpers) are rearranging the setting for the next act. 

Consider, John has opened the first 6 seals one right after the other, but stops (the curtain closing) after seal 6. WHY HERE? It is because seal 7 begins the trumpet judgements with God's wrath. God wants to see TWO EVENTS take place before this: in fact, these two events MUST take place before the 7th seal is opened.  (the setting must be rearranged)

1. The 144,000 MUST be sealed for their protection from the trumpet judgments. CHECK!

2. The church must be safely seen in heaven, for we are not to be here for His wrath. CHECK!

Both of these events are accomplished, so then John can open the 7th seal.  I really don't see this as a parenthesis. It is events that MUST HAPPEN right then. If they are skipped (as if a parenthesis) then God becomes a liar - and that is not going to happen. (Note, a parenthesis is outside of John's chronology.)

Edited November 3, 2019 by iamlamad

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Has Christ been reigning over His church since Pentecost?

 

Not with an iron scepter, He has not.  Jesus did not approve of all the behavior of every pastor from then until now, certainly not what we have witnessed occurring in the last century or the present one to say the least.  That's just in regards to pastors, much less what everyone else is up to.  If Jesus was reigning would they be off having affairs?  Would they be busy stealing money from the church coffers?  When He reigns during the millennial period do you expect to see that type of behavior from His priests and kings?

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Did you ever read that all authority was given to Him way back then?

 

All authority was given to Him yes, but not everything is under His subjection yet, this is where you are veering off course on this.  Everything must be subjected to Him first, and that does not happen until He comes and reigns with the iron scepter.

 

I Corinthians 15: 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

 

When and then, two very important words to understand in that passage.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I know you won't believe any of this. That is fine.  If you don't like the idea of a lease on earth, then perhaps you can explain to the readers why it is at the 7th trumpet - and not before - that the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ.

 

Because that is the end of the tribulation, it ushers in the millennial kingdom.  I have been pretty clear on that I thought, scripture certainly is.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Why not just believe John - that the Day of the Lord starts at the 6th seal?

 

John does not say that the day of the Lord starts at the 6th seal, you are.  What we see at the 6th seal is the reaction of a bunch of unbelievers to the signs in the sky, the very signs Jesus said would precede His coming in Matthew 24.

 

Revelation 6:12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

 

See how they are hiding from Him, all these people are afraid because they are not believers, why do you think their understanding is so accurate as to announce the day of the Lord?

 

Now compare what is described above to what Jesus said, and I will highlight the similarities for you.

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

 

Look familiar to you?  And perhaps the most notable thing for you to see there, is how the passage in Matthew begins.  Immediately after the tribulation of those days, which days?  What did Jesus tell you about prior to that?

 

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

 

So, when you see those signs in the sky, He is near.

 

God bless

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The Jews think we are in the year 57?? or something. Others, who have studied bible chronology for many years, think we are very close to the 6000 year mark now.

 

Yes, the Jews count places us close to about 5800 years of time, however, there are two periods of history in which time was lost and not recorded, one of those periods was what we know as the dark ages.  No one disputes that, whether it is the Jews or Gentiles, but what is not known for certain is how much time was lost.  Everyone estimates about 100 years for each occurrence which places us right around the 6000 mark.  We do not know how accurate that is or how many years are left to go with any degree of certainty.  Sounds to me like something God worked out by His own hand.  If the end times period is a 7 year period, then we know that there are at least 7+ years left.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, I know the story of the two witnesses was written in chapter 11. Not to worry! I have said over and over on this forum that verses 11:4 through 11:13 - John's narrative on the two witnesses, are written as a parenthesis. Perhaps you have not read those posts so this is new.

 

Surely you can't be serious?   Are you going to sit here and tell me that you continue to argue chronology, accusing everyone who tries to point out that it is not of doing something underhanded with scripture.  Then you are going to turn around and cherry pick 9 verses out of the middle of a text and move it to where you find it convenient?   Unbelievable!!!

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

See? The entire problem solved by parenthesis.

 

Unbelievable!!!  I think you owe quite a few of us an apology.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

WHY do I insist on a parenthesis here? Simple: it is the only way John's narrative makes sense.

 

All of us who have been pointing out that Revelation is not chronological have been explaining that for a long time, but your imaginary parentheses is utterly ridiculous.  You should seriously be embarrassed after all the grief you give anyone else that realizes it is not chronological, I honestly can't even believe this attempt you are making to pluck out certain verses that only YOU approve of.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

No, I certainly agree in every point. But you don't understand it yet.   it may appear at first I disagree with myself, but I really don't.

 

No, you really don't agree with yourself, and you are making things up as you go along rather than humbling yourself to admit your stubbornness on chronology was misplaced.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Why not look at the 7th trumpet and see what really happens?  Look: if you have knowledge of what this mystery is, by all means TELL US. Until then, I will believe it is God getting His planet  back. 

 

It is in the writings of the prophets iamlamad, have you bothered to read them?  I'll give you a hint, there is nothing in there about a lease agreement, but there is an awful lot of information regarding the end times, and especially make sure you understand all the references to the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM.  

 

By the way, I want to thank you for actually taking the time to answer my questions last time, it was extremely refreshing to see you actually engage in a conversation and address my post.

 

God bless

[Retrobyter]

On 11/1/2019 at 9:42 PM, wingnut- said:

 

Let's play a little game here called, iamlamad's insistence on chronology.  So why can the millennium not begin at the 7th trumpet iamlamad?  Easy, because two chapters later you have this beast that enters the picture, and he is ruling for 3 1/2 years.  The millennial reign is Christ's reign, with an iron scepter no less.

 

God bless

Shalom, wingnut-.

Have you considered the NATURE of the Millennium? According to our Lord, the Kingdom of God (which will be during the Millennium) is like a grain of mustard seed. It starts out SMALL and GROWS until it's a tree big enough for the birds to nest in its branches! Could not this beast be reigning at the BEGINNING of the Millennium BEFORE Yeshua`s Kingdom fills the whole earth?

Consider what Daniel interpreted from Nebuchadnezzar's dream: Daniel said,...

Daniel 2:31-45 (KJV)

31 "Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

So, the Kingdom that the God of heaven sets up will be like a stone cut out of a mountain without hands, smashes at LEAST the kingdom of iron and clay (but all the rest, too), and then GROWS until it becomes a GREAT MOUNTAIN THAT FILLS THE WHOLE EARTH!

The growth of the Kingdom of God during the Millennium TAKES TIME TO BUILD!

That's what Paul was teaching us in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Again, there is a PROGRESSION of subduing all things - all rule and all authority and power - all governments!

Death is not destroyed until the END of the Millennium, and Yochanan ("John") confirmed that in Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

See, the thousand years ("Millennium") is not how long the Messiah reigns; it's how long that haSatan is locked away in the bottomless pit!

[Revelation Man]

22 hours ago, The Light said:

The 144,000 is not a metaphor for all of Israel. The 144,000 is a specific number and First Fruits.  You of all people should understand what first fruits are. Therefore they CANNOT BE all of Israel.

 

First-fruits simple mean the first fruits of the Harvest. The Church is in Heaven and mas married the Lamb, thus we are the First fruits of Christ. These who repent and then join Christ are indeed the first fruits of God, when Jesus returns they will be a part of his Kingdom, the rest of the Jewish Saints will have to be raised/resurrected to stand in their lots at the end. So who is the first fruits ? The Jews who repent at the end times are the first fruits of Israel.

As per the 144,000 not being a Metaphor, I challenge you to find the name Israel anywhere in the book of Revelation, its not there. The Woman is used for Israel amidst other code names like 144,000. The reason is obvious, Rome had swamped Jerusalem in AD 70 and John couldn't write a book saying Rome and the whole world was eventually going to be defeated by the God of Israel, nor could he even mention Israel was going to do anything, Rome would have seen that as sedition to the Government of which he and the Churches were "SUBJECTS" of Rome. So Jesus used CODE WORDS. Like Babylon instead of the the World, the Romans laughed when they saw this "CRAZY MAN" writing about how Babylon {which didn't even exist at this time} was going to be defeated, but they didn't know Babylon was used for the Whole Wicked World, if they thought he was speaking about the whole world, which Rome was a huge part of, they would have disbanded the Church for sedition against the Gov. !! This is why code words were used like THE WOMAN for Israel, and the 144,000 for the 1/3 of the Jews who Repent or All Israel who repent. 

So its can't by symbolism even though the Whole Book of Revelation is chock full of symbolism !! What ? The whole book of Revelation is one giant CODE BOOK and the keys to the CODE is mostly found in the Old Testament, out of 404 verses in the BoR 289 are speaking about the Old Testament. The Woman's CODE of Rev. 12 is found in Gen. 37:9. 

 

22 hours ago, The Light said:

Totally wrong conclusion. You need to study Biblical history.

 

If there were supposedly 20 Lost Indian Tribes but we could find there kin in Oklahoma are they lost ? No, of course not.

All of the Tribes had people living in Jerusalem, no tribes were ever lost, God states time and again that He has saved remnants from all the tribes of Israel. I didn't say the Northern Kingdoms weren't taken away, I said there was SEED LEFT of all the tribes that were taken away, so if they have SEED then they are not lost, even if they themselves only see themselves 2000 years later as Jews, they aren't really Jews unless they are from the tribe of Judah. God foretold that the two sticks would become ONE STICK. All of the Seed of all the tribes are now called Jews, BUT God knows who they are. I could care less about who was taken away 2500 years ago, their seed is still alive, and living in Israel, even if we don't understand that. Gods plans are not limited by our understandings.

22 hours ago, The Light said:

Doesn't agree with scripture.

 

The daily sacrifice is taken away on day 1185. The abomination of desolation occurs 1290 days later, which is day 2475. That's towards the end of the week, not the middle.

Dan 12

¹¹ And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Everything is REVERSED from what people seem, God meant for this riddle not to be understood until the End Times no doubt. I have a thread on this site on Dan. 11 and 12 that explains every verse, who every King of Dan. 11 is and what the 1260, 1290 and 1335 is. 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/223437-daniel-11-12-historically-explained-step-by-step/

I will go through the 1260, 1290 and 1335 here. So an Angel asks Jesus {Man in Linen} THIS QUESTION:

Daniel 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

{{{ So Jesus just told the Angel, thus telling Daniel that from the time the holy peoples {Israel} are Conquered {power scattered means Conquered} there will be a time, times and half {1260 days} until all these things shall be finished...WHAT THINGS ? Well verse 6 tells us what things, ALL THESE WONDERS that Daniel is being shown !! Well what ends them in 1260 days ? Well that is easy, since the Anti-Christ/Beast comes forth in the Middle of the week at the 1260 {really day 1261} then there are 1260 days left until Jesus' return ENDS THESE WONDERS !! Its obvious what this means. 

Now the part which few people comprehend, I have seen 100's and even 1000's of interpretations on this, but God has ONE TRUE interpretaion, not 100's or 1000's. Notice in verse 8 Daniel asks the EXACT SAME QUESTION that the Angel asked.

Dan. 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

So Daniel asks the same question, so naturally Jesus would use the exact same PATTERN in his answer, EUREKA !! It all has to do with Jesus' Second Coming as per when do ALL THESE WONDERS END !! The First thing Daniel was shown is it will be 1260 days from the time Israel/Jerusalem is Conquered until Jesus' Return will END THEIR BONDAGE after 1260 days, so the NEXT TWO Numbers are likewise a set number off days until ALL THESE WONDERS END also, at Jesus' Second Coming. Lets now look at it in detail.

Dan. 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

No one will understand until the VERY END TIMES {NOW}. And during that long time period {Church Age} MANY shall be made WHITE but the Wicked will still do wickedness and will not understand. NOW REMEMBER THE KEY.....In verse 8 Daniel asks WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS END?

Dan. 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

So what do these TWO SETS of Numbers mean ? Well Daniel asked in verses 8 the same thing the Angel asked Jesus, what shall be the END of all these things so when Jesus answers that is exactly what he is telling him, HOW LONG it will be from each EVENT {NUMBER} until these things/wonders will end, and we know Jesus is who ENDS THESE THINGS via his Second Coming don't we brothers ? 

So the 1290 comes before the 1260, since its a set number of days until Jesus' Return. But does that make sense ? Of course it does, why would Jesus in Matthew 24:15-17 give the Jews a sign to FLEE Judea after the Beast had Conquered Jerusalem/Israel ? He wouldn't, our God would give the Jews a HEADS UP on what was about to hit them, and that is exactly what He does, and that is why they are to Flee Judea at the AoD which happens 30 days BEFORE the 1260 Conquering of Jerusalem. Rev. 13 tells us the False Prophet {Religious Beast} places an IMAGE of the 666 Beast in the Temple and defiles the Temple, like Jesus says, that thing that STANDS where it OUGHT NOT [in the Temple of God]. 

Hitler was getting concessions from France, England and everyone before he pounced, this False Prophet Jewish High Priest will like wise have two reasons to do this, he is no doubt a Religious Jew who HATES Jesus like most Religious Jews do, they despise all Jews who come to Christ. After 1/3 of the Jews REPENT BEFORE the Day of the Lord like Malachi 4:5-6 says they will do, they start worshiping Jesus {THE SACRIFICE} in the Temple of God and this High Priest is livid. This High Priest {F.P.} also understand whats about to happen on the World stage, just like everyone saw Hitler coming, the world will see this 666/Anti-Christ Man beefing up his Military and they will know hes very ANGRY with Israel. probably because they have fully taken over Jerusalem by this point in time or for varied reasons, its all really because evil men hate the Jews. But the False Prophet sees whats about to happen via this 666/man, so he bends to his will, he gets ahead of the game, and since he hates Jesus, he TAKES AWAY THE SACRIFICE {The Jews will be forbidden from worshiping Jesus in the Temple of God} and SETS UP the Abomination of Desolation {Places an IMAGE of the European President in the Temple of God}. 

The False Prophet does this 1290 days from the time ALL THESE WONDERS END via the Second Coming of Jesus. So what is the 1335 ? Well, Jesus says it is a Blessing doesn't he ? What BLESSES Israel at this time ? Well what does the bible say that happens BEFORE the Day of the Lord ?

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So the Day of the Lord starts in the middle of the week, at the FIRST SEAL when the Anti-Christ is RELEASED to go Forth Conquering at the 1260 !! So Elijah/Two-witnesses come back to turn Israel BACK UNTO God BEFORE the DOTL !! This is why the Jews know to FLEE Judea !! They have been reading Matthew 24, so when they see the AoD they know to Flee Judea, that is just common sense, only a Repentant Jew would know to Flee Judea like Jesus says, because Jews are forbidden from reading the New Testament today. 

So the BLESSING {Two-witnesses} is 1335 days from the time ALL THESE WONDERS END at the Second Coming is the Two-witnesses showing up to turn Israel unto God. There is no greater blessing one can receive is there ? 

The 1335 = the Two-witnesses showing up before the Beast Conquers Israel, thus their "1260 day OFFICE" on earth starts BEFORE the Beasts 1260 day Timeline begins, thus they must die before he dies, does this happen ? YES....The Two-witnesses DIE at the 6th Trump, the Beast DIES at the 7th Vial. It all jibes. 

The 1290 is the AoD and the Sacrifice being TAKEN AWAY {Jesus is not allowed to be worshiped in the Temple any longer}. Why would Daniel be given a story about a PROFANE MEAT SACRIFICE by Gabriel ? Jesus IS THAT SACRIFICE in the end times, and that is what Gabriel is referencing, our understanding or confusion, matters not. 

The 1260 is Jerusalem being Conquered by THE BEAST. 

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Revelation Man

[wingnut-]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Have you considered the NATURE of the Millennium?

 

Hey brother,

Yes, from what you present here I think we are probably in agreement on this.  The post of mine you quoted was merely an attempt to play devil's advocate with iamlamad regarding this chronology issue he is stuck on.  I can't say for certain when the millennial reign begins, but my guess would be somewhere around the time Jesus arrives on the Mt. of Olives to when He enters Jerusalem for the second time.  Armageddon and other events that follow are not part of the great tribulation period, once the day of the Lord begins we are officially out of that period.

 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Could not this beast be reigning at the BEGINNING of the Millennium BEFORE Yeshua`s Kingdom fills the whole earth?

 

I would say he has to be considering Daniel's vision, but I do believe it is the very end of his time (concerning the AC and false prophet) after the war on the saints has finished and the two witnesses are dead.  To me, this is what I see depicted in reference to the beast and the ten kings turning on the woman in Revelation 17.  Something changes for them, and I see that occurring when the whole world sees the signs of His coming and allegiances begin to change.  For example, regarding the Jewish people in particular, prophecy tells us that Jesus will come when they call for Him.

 

Zechariah 13:9 And I will put this third into the fire,
    and refine them as one refines silver,
    and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
    and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
    and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So, the Kingdom that the God of heaven sets up will be like a stone cut out of a mountain without hands, smashes at LEAST the kingdom of iron and clay (but all the rest, too), and then GROWS until it becomes a GREAT MOUNTAIN THAT FILLS THE WHOLE EARTH!

The growth of the Kingdom of God during the Millennium TAKES TIME TO BUILD!

 

Agreed, which I think has something to do with how it starts, or the size of it at that time based on the survivors.

 

Isaiah 24:6  Therefore a curse devours the earth, and its inhabitants suffer for their guilt; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are scorched, and few men are left.

 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Again, there is a PROGRESSION of subduing all things - all rule and all authority and power - all governments!

Death is not destroyed until the END of the Millennium, and Yochanan ("John") confirmed that in Revelation 20:

 

Agreed, the millennium will begin with fire and end with fire.

 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

See, the thousand years ("Millennium") is not how long the Messiah reigns; it's how long that haSatan is locked away in the bottomless pit!

 

I believe it is both one and the same.  I am convinced the Rabbinical timeline is accurate, and the 7th day is the day of the Lord, and that sabbath rest coincides with a rest from the destroyer.  The two "battles" that occur in this period, one at the beginning and one at the end, I don't see as being all that time consuming.  The Lord will mow them down like grass.

 

God bless

[iamlamad]

I am really wondering why people don't believe this verse as written?
 

Rev 6:¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Do people think this "day of His wrath" is not the same as "the Day of the Lord?"

Or do people imagine they can move the 6th seal to where they think it fits better? 

I don't understand many people's written answers. 

I see this as written in concrete so to speak: the 6th seal is one of the 7 seals sealing the book, and therefore cannot be moved anywhere else: it MUST say between seals 5 and 7. In chapter 8 the BOOK gets opened. The chapters following the 7th seal is then what is written in the book, so they cannot be rearranged either.

I have a novel idea: let's just rearrange our thinking to fit this: the DAY OF THE LORD, starts right here, before the 70th week has even started. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

Have you considered the NATURE of the Millennium? According to our Lord, the Kingdom of God (which will be during the Millennium) is like a grain of mustard seed. It starts out SMALL and GROWS until it's a tree big enough for the birds to nest in its branches! Could not this beast be reigning at the BEGINNING of the Millennium BEFORE Yeshua`s Kingdom fills the whole earth?

Consider what Daniel interpreted from Nebuchadnezzar's dream: Daniel said,...

Daniel 2:31-45 (KJV)

31 "Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

So, the Kingdom that the God of heaven sets up will be like a stone cut out of a mountain without hands, smashes at LEAST the kingdom of iron and clay (but all the rest, too), and then GROWS until it becomes a GREAT MOUNTAIN THAT FILLS THE WHOLE EARTH!

The growth of the Kingdom of God during the Millennium TAKES TIME TO BUILD!

That's what Paul was teaching us in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. (But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Again, there is a PROGRESSION of subduing all things - all rule and all authority and power - all governments!

Death is not destroyed until the END of the Millennium, and Yochanan ("John") confirmed that in Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

See, the thousand years ("Millennium") is not how long the Messiah reigns; it's how long that haSatan is locked away in the bottomless pit!

I like your last sentence: it makes sense. It is exactly what is written. 

I agree with the progression: God starts out in the trumpets with 1/3 destruction.

Takes time to built:  my guess is, at the start there will only be millions left alive on earth, from the billions of today. The population will have to grow.

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, wingnut- said:

...

Surely you can't be serious?   Are you going to sit here and tell me that you continue to argue chronology, accusing everyone who tries to point out that it is not of doing something underhanded with scripture.  Then you are going to turn around and cherry pick 9 verses out of the middle of a text and move it to where you find it convenient?   Unbelievable!!!

Unbelievable!!!  I think you owe quite a few of us an apology.

 

All of us who have been pointing out that Revelation is not chronological have been explaining that for a long time, but your imaginary parentheses is utterly ridiculous.  You should seriously be embarrassed after all the grief you give anyone else that realizes it is not chronological, I honestly can't even believe this attempt you are making to pluck out certain verses that only YOU approve of.

No, you really don't agree with yourself, and you are making things up as you go along rather than humbling yourself to admit your stubbornness on chronology was misplaced.

 

It is in the writings of the prophets iamlamad, have you bothered to read them?  I'll give you a hint, there is nothing in there about a lease agreement, but there is an awful lot of information regarding the end times, and especially make sure you understand all the references to the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM.  

By the way, I want to thank you for actually taking the time to answer my questions last time, it was extremely refreshing to see you actually engage in a conversation and address my post.

God bless

Yes, of course I am serious! The study of God's word SHOULD be serious! It is NOT "unbelievable: it is the way John wrote.  As I said, I have been writing of this parenthesis for months on these threads. I am sorry you did not see it before. 

Question: does a parenthesis mean you can rearrange (as certain people here are so determined to do)? No, of course not! The timing inside a parenthesis is usually self explanatory as for timing. Here it is the entire last half of the week. 

Note very carefully: I most certainly have not moved the 7th trumpet ANYWHERE. All I did was recognize a parenthesis and removed it from john's chronology. I can assure you, that is not a sin.  Just so you know, much of chapter 13 is written as a parenthesis also. In both chapters, John takes the reader down the path of the last half of the week, first with the two witnesses, and then with the Beast and False prophet.  Surely you don't imagine the mark is established and enforced in chapter 13 - where it is written - do you? 

Again I have written this again and again: events in one chapter will most certainly take place AFTER the events of previous chapters, and before the events in later chapters, EXCEPT for parenthesis.  It is a general statement. Another exception would be prophecies given by the 24 elders. 

Others here try to move IMMOVABLE OBJECTS such as a trumpet or a seal.  I insist: they CANNOT be moved.  Theories that insist a seal or a trumpet or a vial be moved will certainly be proven wrong. 

you are making things up as you go along   Of this I will freely admit - for no one has asked the questions you asked. My ONLY point was to show possibilities of how the end times will fit LEAVING the 7th trumpet at the midpoint where John and God put it.  it HAS to fit as is, because the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and cannot be moved anywhere. 

your imaginary parentheses is utterly ridiculous.   It is NOT imaginary: I have known of its existence for years. Perhaps now YOU will study and find yourself approved!

there is nothing in there about a lease agreement,   Before the mysteries were revealed to Paul, they were not written either. God SAID He would build His church in Revelation knowledge, and trough Paul PROVED it.   

Question: can you prove the book is NOT a lease document of Earth? Can you prove the 7th trumpet does NOT mark the midpoint? Can you prove by scripture that the 7th seal does not START the 70th week - and the 7th vial END the week? Can you prove by scripture that the first seal is NOT the church with the gospel? Can you prove that seals 2 through 4 are NOT the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel? Can you prove with scripture that the 5th seal is NOT the martyrs of the church age?  Can you prove by scripture AGAINST what I have written over and over: that God was showing us in chapters 4 & 5 a time before Christ rose from the dead, up to the time He DID rise, and then to the time He ascended: around 32 AD?

I have written these things over and over, and said that they came by revelation knowledge. 

If you will note, I don't make comments like this: "Your theory of moving the 7th trumpet to the end is utterly ridiculous. " I usually say something like "your theory is in error."  I will say this: your theory of moving the 7th trumpet to the end will CERTAINLY be proven wrong.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hey brother,

Yes, from what you present here I think we are probably in agreement on this.  The post of mine you quoted was merely an attempt to play devil's advocate with iamlamad regarding this chronology issue he is stuck on.  I can't say for certain when the millennial reign begins, but my guess would be somewhere around the time Jesus arrives on the Mt. of Olives to when He enters Jerusalem for the second time.  Armageddon and other events that follow are not part of the great tribulation period, once the day of the Lord begins we are officially out of that period.

Shalom, brother wingnut-.

Okay, I can understand that. "Playing devil's advocate" in typing is like trying to convey facetious statements, though. They're often misunderstood without obvious clues as to their true intent.

Regarding the time when Yeshua` begins His Reign, I believe that the RESCUE is more pressing than His acceptance as King. In fact, I believe that the RESCUE will be the convincing argument for Israel's acceptance of Yeshua` as God's Messiah, their King. He comes IN A HURRY, WITH A ZEAL for His people and for His Land, and starts His campaign against the airforces of His enemies in the sky and at Botsrah, first. This is when He stains His clothes in their blood! In so doing, He fulfills prophecy:

Isaiah 34:1-8 (KJV)

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 "For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment."

6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Later, we read:

Isaiah 63:1-6 (KJV)

1 "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength?"

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save (deliver; rescue)."

2 "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?"

3 "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. 5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

Regarding the deliverance of His Land, one of the key statements is this:

Zechariah 12:6-9 (KJV)

6 "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."

And, last I looked, Zechariah 12 comes before Zechariah 14.

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I would say he has to be considering Daniel's vision, but I do believe it is the very end of his time (concerning the AC and false prophet) after the war on the saints has finished and the two witnesses are dead.  To me, this is what I see depicted in reference to the beast and the ten kings turning on the woman in Revelation 17.  Something changes for them, and I see that occurring when the whole world sees the signs of His coming and allegiances begin to change.  For example, regarding the Jewish people in particular, prophecy tells us that Jesus will come when they call for Him.

Zechariah 13:9 And I will put this third into the fire,
    and refine them as one refines silver,
    and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
    and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
    and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

Agreed, however, remember too, that Zechariah 13 comes BETWEEN 12 and 14. What changes for them is that they notice the prints in His hands, and they mourn for Him as a close relative!

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Agreed, which I think has something to do with how it starts, or the size of it at that time based on the survivors.

Isaiah 24:6  Therefore a curse devours the earth, and its inhabitants suffer for their guilt; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are scorched, and few men are left.

Agreed, the millennium will begin with fire and end with fire.

Be careful here. Remember this: the Hebrew word for "the earth" is "haa'aarets," but that is also the same word that is used for "the land," particularly "THE Land" of Israel. Make sure that what you believe is based in the CORRECT interpretation of this word. Usually, the word "kol," meaning "all," is added if it extends beyond the Land of Israel, and even then, the text may be talking about all the Middle East, as opposed to all lands of the planet.

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I believe it is both one and the same.  I am convinced the Rabbinical timeline is accurate, and the 7th day is the day of the Lord, and that sabbath rest coincides with a rest from the destroyer.  The two "battles" that occur in this period, one at the beginning and one at the end, I don't see as being all that time consuming.  The Lord will mow them down like grass.

God bless

While it is true that He CAN "mow them down like grass" quickly, it is also true that Paul says He subdues His enemies, one at a time, from His Coming to the time when He hands over the EMPIRE (a World-wide Kingdom) to His Father. This time period coincides with John's record of the Millennium in Revelation 20.

And, recall that Yeshua`s reign was prophesied by Gavri'el this way:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

This isn't in "Heaven," brother; this is on the New Earth!

Edited November 3, 2019 by Retrobyter
put the thought in the wrong place