Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[The Light]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Quote

Please, show us this difference with scripture that proves what you say. Can you prove with scripture that "the tribulation" occurs during the seals? Can you prove with scripture this "difference" you think exists?  

Still carrying that mouse in your pocket?

Rev 6

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

² And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

³ And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

⁴ And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

⁵ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

⁶ And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

⁷ And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matt 24

³ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

⁴ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

⁹ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

¹⁰ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

¹¹ And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

¹² And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

¹³ But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

²³ Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

²⁴ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

²⁵ Behold, I have told you before.

²⁶ Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Quote

Can you prove any connection at all between the 144,000 and the 5th seal?

Sure, but I'm not sure you can follow the logic.

Again, we see the Church in heaven in Rev 5, therefore it is not the Church being spoken of. Since the Church is taken in a pretribulation rapture they are not around for the tribulation as the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. We can see the tribulation being spoken of in Matt 24. It is the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth that go through the tribulation. They will be raptured prewrath as proven in Matt 24 and Rev 6. Since we know that the 144,000 are first fruits we know that that guarantees a harvest of the 12 tribes. The 12 tribes will be gathered from the earth and the Church will be gathered from heaven. This occurs prior to the wrath of God.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[OneLight]

8 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

1 Thes. 4:v.16 - "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel - Michael -, and with the trump of God -the God's trump is with Michael- and the dead in Christ shall rise first. - ~Yes, in fulfiment  was written in Daniel 12:v.2- the trump of God is with Michael.  He Judges and makes War. Revelation 12:v.7 and 16:v.13-16. 

The first coming of the LORD  was with the voice that cried in the wilderness -John the Baptist who was born by prophecy, that is by the power of the Word of God-. The Word is God.  Now, the Lord will descend with the voice of the archangel - his name is Michael.
The voice of the archangel - archangel Michael - is a message, and God's trump is with Michael. The message is a trumpet, the problem is whether the voice or the message of the messenger is believed by the listeners. If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? What battle? Rev.12:v.7 and 16:v.13-16

Revelation 2:v.26-29
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.  -   Yes, the letter kills -  
 

You are still adding to scripture.  Yes, Michael is found in Daniel 12, but nothing is said about a trumpet or that Michael said anything.  The trumpet is found in 1 Thessalonians 4, but nothing is said about Michael.  You are taking both passages and combining them to make your statement, which is not a wise thing to do.  Is it possible, yes, but it is not scriptural so we cannot say this is true without reservations.

When scripture speaks about the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, read how Jesus worked on the Sabbath and what He said to the religious leaders of that day and you will see the differences.  To try and spiritualize everything in scripture is not what this means.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry, bro', but you're forgetting all about the MILLENNIUM! There's a THOUSAND YEARS in between the coming of the Lord Yeshua` the Messiah and the Final Judgment (the Great White Throne Judgment)! The "DAY of the Lord" is a THOUSAND-YEAR DAY! (There'll be no night in His presence as His glory outshines the sun!)

My friend, the 5th seal was opened almost 2000 years into our PAST. The 1000 years or Christ's reign will not begin until after the future 70th week has finished and Satan is locked up. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended or shortly after. the 6th seal is future, being the start of the Day of the Lord. Then a few days after, the first trumpet of the 70th week will begin. The trumpets will sound in the first half of the week, then the vials will be poured out in the second half of the week. Finally the week will end with the 7th vial. Then, some unknown time later, Jesus descends as shown in Rev. 19. AFter the battle of Armageddon, and the sheep and goat judgment, Satan will be locked up and Christ's 1000 year reign will start. The DAy of the Lord is going to START and judgment. I too believe it will continue through the 1000 year reign.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, The Light said:

 Quote Lamad

What event is going to end the age of grace that we are in? Perhaps you just don't know. The age of grace is going to end with the pretrib rapture of the church. According to Paul, the next moment in time will the the Day of the Lord, which, in case you don't know, begins God's wrath - which is the start of God's judgment on earth. 

There is a difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God. The tribulation occurs during the seals. The wrath of God occurs during the trumpets.

Please, show us this difference with scripture that proves what you say. Can you prove with scripture that "the tribulation" occurs during the seals? Can you prove with scripture this "difference" you think exists?  

Can you prove any connection at all between the 144,000 and the 5th seal?

So you answer by posting the scriptures for the seals.  There are SO MANY who imagine-  but really don't know - what these seals are about.  This is partly because they pull the seals out of their early church context. Now wonder they get it wrong! Pay close attention to the context:

Rev. 5:⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Verse 4 gives away TIMING: someone one - a MAN - had to prevail over death and rise up out of hell to become worthy to take the book. But at this point in time, "NO MAN WAS FOUND WORTHY." This is point to a time before Christ rose from the dead. 

Verse 5 gives away TIMING: Jesus had just prevailed over death and was then found worthy to take the book. Jesus had risen from the dead.  Many SAW Him and spoke with Him.

Verse 6 gives away timing: Jesus had just ascended - right after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. He sent Mary away and then He ascended; John -  already in heaven saw this in the vision - saw the moment Jesus returned back into the throne room. Verse 6 confirms this by telling us this was the moment in time the Holy Spirit was sent down.

Verse 7 tells us Jesus came immediately and took the book out of the Father's right hand. Chapter 6 then shows us Jesus starting to open the seals: TIME? 32 AD.

The first seal then, a WHITE Horse: John used the color white 17 times in Revelation; every other time to represent righteousness.  It could only be very wild and extreme imagination to think white here  -  the white horse  - could represent ANYTHING ELSE BUT righteousness.  the ONLY righteous entity on earth in 32 AD was the infant church. This first seal is to represent the CHURCH with THE GOSPEL sent out to make disciples of all nations. This rider rides alone.

Seals 2 through 4: these horsemen ride together: they are to represent the DEVIL and his attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God has allowed Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences, and wild beasts to TRY and stop the church. God has limited Satan in his theater of operations to only one fourth of the earth. We can guess this one fourth will be centered on Jerusalem.  That could well then take in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. 

Where have two world wars started? Europe. Where did the black plague hit twice, killing about one third of the population each time? Europe. Where has there been famine after famine? Africa. Where do wild animals eat people? Africa. 

Finally we come to the 5th seal. They are martyrs of the church age. This should be obvious, because up to now John as been in the church age. Nothing had changed by the number of the seal. Anyway, common sense would tell us a 70th week martyr would KNOW they have only to wait out the week and JESUS will return. They would also know that judgment had already started. These martyrs can ONLY be church age martyrs.

Therefore, it is easy for readers to see why I disagree with you. My theory comes straight from the scriptures, correctly understood.  No imagination on my part. 

[The Light]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So you answer by posting the scriptures for the seals.  There are SO MANY who imagine-  but really don't know - what these seals are about.  This is partly because they pull the seals out of their early church context. Now wonder they get it wrong! Pay close attention to the context:

Rev. 5:⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Verse 4 gives away TIMING: someone one - a MAN - had to prevail over death and rise up out of hell to become worthy to take the book. But at this point in time, "NO MAN WAS FOUND WORTHY." This is point to a time before Christ rose from the dead. 

Verse 5 gives away TIMING: Jesus had just prevailed over death and was then found worthy to take the book. Jesus had risen from the dead.  Many SAW Him and spoke with Him.

Verse 6 gives away timing: Jesus had just ascended - right after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. He sent Mary away and then He ascended; John -  already in heaven saw this in the vision - saw the moment Jesus returned back into the throne room. Verse 6 confirms this by telling us this was the moment in time the Holy Spirit was sent down.

Verse 7 tells us Jesus came immediately and took the book out of the Father's right hand. Chapter 6 then shows us Jesus starting to open the seals: TIME? 32 AD.

The first seal then, a WHITE Horse: John used the color white 17 times in Revelation; every other time to represent righteousness.  It could only be very wild and extreme imagination to think white here  -  the white horse  - could represent ANYTHING ELSE BUT righteousness.  the ONLY righteous entity on earth in 32 AD was the infant church. This first seal is to represent the CHURCH with THE GOSPEL sent out to make disciples of all nations. This rider rides alone.

Seals 2 through 4: these horsemen ride together: they are to represent the DEVIL and his attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God has allowed Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences, and wild beasts to TRY and stop the church. God has limited Satan in his theater of operations to only one fourth of the earth. We can guess this one fourth will be centered on Jerusalem.  That could well then take in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. 

Where have two world wars started? Europe. Where did the black plague hit twice, killing about one third of the population each time? Europe. Where has there been famine after famine? Africa. Where do wild animals eat people? Africa. 

Finally we come to the 5th seal. They are martyrs of the church age. This should be obvious, because up to now John as been in the church age. Nothing had changed by the number of the seal. Anyway, common sense would tell us a 70th week martyr would KNOW they have only to wait out the week and JESUS will return. They would also know that judgment had already started. These martyrs can ONLY be church age martyrs.

Therefore, it is easy for readers to see why I disagree with you. My theory comes straight from the scriptures, correctly understood.  No imagination on my part. 

You disagree because your imagination runs wild. The rider on the white horse is given the stephanos crown. The crown of victory. The same crown that is the symbol of the United Nations.

The rider on the white horse also carries a bow. Apollo, the false Christ who is Tammuz carries a bow. False Christ, does that ring any bells?

Matt 24

⁴ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The scripture speaks for itself. We don't need to use our imagination. No matter what you imagine, the seals are not opened. The seals are the tribulation period, the 70th week of Daniel. The Church is in heaven as we can see that the elders are speaking for a group of people out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Rev 5

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Edited November 18, 2019 by The Light

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

You disagree because your imagination runs wild. The rider on the white horse is given the stephanos crown. The crown of victory. The same crown that is the symbol of the United Nations.

The rider on the white horse also carries a bow. Apollo, the false Christ who is Tammuz carries a bow. False Christ, does that ring any bells?

Matt 24

⁴ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The scripture speaks for itself. We don't need to use our imagination. No matter what you imagine, the seals are not opened. The seals are the tribulation period, the 70th week of Daniel. The Church is in heaven as we can see that the elders are speaking for a group of people out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Rev 5

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Hi TL,

"The scripture speaks for itself. We don't need to use our imagination. No matter what you imagine, the seals are not opened. The seals are the tribulation period, the 70th week of Daniel. The Church is in heaven as we can see that the elders are speaking for a group of people out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

I wonder why the redeemed need "representation"? Just a couple of verses later, John sees an assembly before the Throne, a multitude which no man could count. 

Second.....Many versions don't have "and hast redeemed US to God......and hast made US unto our God"..........but instead have :

 

⁹ And they *sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the ^[a]book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

¹⁰ “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

 

[The Light]

8 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi TL,

"The scripture speaks for itself. We don't need to use our imagination. No matter what you imagine, the seals are not opened. The seals are the tribulation period, the 70th week of Daniel. The Church is in heaven as we can see that the elders are speaking for a group of people out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

I wonder why the redeemed need "representation"? Just a couple of verses later, John sees an assembly before the Throne, a multitude which no man could count. 

Second.....Many versions don't have "and hast redeemed US to God......and hast made US unto our God"..........but instead have :

 

⁹ And they *sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the ^[a]book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

¹⁰ “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

 

When you say a couple of verses later you are talking about the complete tribulation period. All the seals.

There is a gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As for the verse you posted, He did purchase for God men and He did make them to be a kingdom.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, The Light said:

You disagree because your imagination runs wild. The rider on the white horse is given the stephanos crown. The crown of victory. The same crown that is the symbol of the United Nations.

The rider on the white horse also carries a bow. Apollo, the false Christ who is Tammuz carries a bow. False Christ, does that ring any bells?

Matt 24

⁴ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The scripture speaks for itself. We don't need to use our imagination. No matter what you imagine, the seals are not opened. The seals are the tribulation period, the 70th week of Daniel. The Church is in heaven as we can see that the elders are speaking for a group of people out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Rev 5

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Sorry, no imagination on my side here: This crown means not only victory but ultimate victory.  In case you missed it, WE WIN! Satan loses. And just so you know, John was not talking about the United Nations!  Neither is John talking about Tammuz! WOW! Talk about imagination! My friend, THINK WHITE! John used white 16 other times - each for righteousness. It takes incredible imagination to think John would use white 16 times for righteousness and once for something evil. 

You need to camp out on chapters 4 & 5 until you get their message. I will tell you what Jesus told me: "until you can answer these three questions, you will never understand this part of John's vision."  His three questions:

Why was I not seen at the right hand of the Father (throne room vision in chapter 4) when there are a dozen verses telling you that is where I should have been?

Why did the first search John watched for someone worthy to take the book, end in failure? If you read ahead, I was found worthy. Why then was I not found in the first search?

Why was the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room in this vision? I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended.

Until you get the right answers to these questions, your theory on the first seal will be off.

Edited November 18, 2019 by iamlamad

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

When you say a couple of verses later you are talking about the complete tribulation period. All the seals.

There is a gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As for the verse you posted, He did purchase for God men and He did make them to be a kingdom.

Hi TL,

Yes, I agree that the tribulation period is all the seals. Quite right. 

What I don't see is the church in heaven before the tribulation period, before the seals are opened. They are a stand alone group which no man could count. I don't see them as needing representation by anyone. 

And from Mark 13......"from the uttermost part of the earth TO the uttermost part of heaven".......

Uttermost.....meaning the farthest extent. So the gathering is from the farthest extent of the earth......TO......the farthest extent of heaven.  I see this as " destination". 

We are gathered from the earth TO the uttermost part of heaven, the highest, the farthest extent, where God dwells.

[OneLight]

12 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

You did forget Revelation 12:v.7 and 16:v.13-16 - I said above:

The voice of the archangel - archangel Michael - is a message, and God's trump is with Michael. The message is a trumpet, the problem is whether the voice or the message of the messenger is believed by the listeners. 

If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?  

What battle? The battle that is written in Rev.12:v.7 and 16:v.13-16 -  By the way, which side will you be in this battle? If you are not on the side of the archangel Michael, you will surely be fighting for the opponent among his angels or his ministers: 2Cor.11:v.13-15.

JESUS said/revealed that after the first victory against the Red Dragon is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God(Revelation 11:v.15), and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they - Michael and his followers -  will overcome the Red Dragon BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and by the Word of their testimony; and they will not love their lives unto the death.   Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Let me ask you again, do you believe Michael and Jesus are the same person? 

Edited November 18, 2019 by OneLight
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