Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

No, not really a stretch. You see, we also have an ENTIRE CHAPTER (Matthew 23) about the abominations (the cries of "Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!" and the atrocities that lay behind those cries) that led to their desolation.

(But, I will break here for explanation and rebuttal.) Precision is key! First, while he did not write "in the 70th," He DID say "AFTER the 62 Sevens." What you don't understand is the nature of the word "after," nor the flow of Hebrew literature. 

When one is learning about word problems in mathematics, one will find that "after" means ">" or "greater than."

For some UNKNOWN REASON, you and your fellow believers in the future "seven years of tribulation" suggest that the gap is somehow inserted at this point. HOWEVER, we're not told of such an insertion! And, if the Sevens ("weeks") normally run consecutively, then
"> (7 + 62)" or as you said, "> 69" Sevens, puts one IN the 70th Seven! See, you've ADDED TO GOD'S WORD information that isn't in the text, namely, "but BEFORE the 70th." That's an ASSUMPTION on your part that has NO justification in the Scripturesff for such a conclusion! So, to continue by saying, "He, Daniel, is inserting a gap" and "things happen in this gap" is to show a PREJUDICE - a BIAS - in the interpretation of Daniel 9! Again, that's inserting your beliefs INTO God's Word (eisegesis) instead of letting God's Word flow OUT and teach YOU (exegesis)!

Third, a proof that you're not being precise is that you said, "He, Daniel, is inserting a gap," when this text is actually Gavriy'eel (Gabriel) saying this TO Daniel. (Daniel 9:21.)

...

AFter means "greater:"

I am going to take Strong's idea over yours:

The KJV translates Strong's H310 in the following manner: after (454x), follow (78x), afterward(s) (46x), behind (44x),

The VAST majority of translators use the English word "after." I saw a couple that said "at the end of."  It should be clear to most readers that Daniel is giving us the idea that TIME PASSED and 69 of the 70 weeks are gone, in history. So then, AFTER those 69 have passed away, Jesus is put to death. But it is NOT IN the 70th for Daniel does not get to the 70th until events pass. It is clear that the Holy Spirit was inserting a gap.  That gap is the 2000 or so years of the Gentile church. It is like a parenthesis inserted into the Hebrew timeline. 

HOWEVER, we're not told of such an insertion!  It comes from just reading the text with no preconceptions, then comparing with other end times scriptures. I know the entire 70th week is in Revelation: chapter 8 to chapter 16. That is proof enough for me.

69" Sevens, puts one IN the 70th Seven!  If God had not chosen to turn to the Gentiles and make the Jews jealous, you would be right. But God DID turn to the gentiles and inserted Gentile time into the Jewish timeline, as if a parenthesis.

That's an ASSUMPTION   It's no assumption. 

²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:...

The events in this color are between the 69th week and the 70th. This could have been written in many ways, But God chose this way. This is confirmed when we find the complete 7oth week in Revelation. We also find the event that will divide that entire week. 

It is without question that Daniel wrote this AFTER the angel had told Him.  But the fact is, it was GOD BREATHED through the angel to Daniel. I am convinced this is written exactly as God wanted it written. 

What you are missing: John shows us the entire 70th week in Revelation as a FUTURE EVENT proving God did insert a gap here. However, it does not fit your preconceived theory so you try to argue against it.  If I were you I would camp out in Revelation until you understand it: it is the most complete work on end times in the bible. It is wisdom that we form our doctrines there, and just fill in missing pieces from other books, such as Daniel. 

This is like a bank president that teaches his tellers everything there is to know about the real money - so when they see a counterfeit, it is instantly recognized.  I know the entire 70th week and the point of division of that week as a future event is written in Revelation. It is therefore easy to spot a theory that disagrees with John. 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

...

Now, when I said, "and the people [of the prince that shall come] (this portion between the square brackets is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE; as such, it has no part in the subject of the sentence) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" within the quote, I was trying to show you and anyone like you that "the prince that shall come" CANNOT be the subject of the verbs in verse 27! The sentence, begun in verse 26 continues into verse 27 in the Hebrew text, and "the prince that shall come" is an object of the preposition "of," in English. (In Hebrew, the word for "prince," nagiyd, is the second noun in a noun construct state, which also cannot be the subject of the verbs in verse 27.) Therefore, there's only ONE masculine, singular noun in the sentence which can be the subject: "Messiah!"

Therefore, it is the "MESSIAH" who "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (Seven)"; it is the "MESSIAH" who "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease," and it is the "MESSIAH" who, "for the overspreading of abominations, shall make it desolate."

No. Yeshua` DID INDEED cause the sacrifices to cease. Apparently, I have to spell it out for you: Let's look at Hebrews 9 and 10:

What you are missing: it is OK (proper and legal in English and other languages) to have an antecedent of a pronoun in a prepositional phrase: you may not LIKE it, but it is done over and over. I might add, your theory here is in the minority. 

Next, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between stopping the sacrifice and stopping the REASON for the sacrifices. Conclusion: Jesus did NOT stop the daily sacrifices. But coming in our future, the man of sin will enter the new Jewish temple and WILL stop the daily sacrifices.  It will not be an imaginary stop - it will be real: no more daily sacrifices! 

Well, let me finish by saying this: men MUCH wiser in Hebrew have disagreed on the intended meaning of these verses and we are certainly not going to solve it here. 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

  9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Did the sacrifices cease after Titus' soldiers destroyed the temple? Certainly NOT.

You don't know what you're talking about. Without a temple, the sacrifices most certainly ceased!                                   

So sorry, this was certainly not my intent. I did not write what I was thinking. Yes, OF COURSE they stopped because no more temple and the Jews were scattered.  My apology! 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

...                                

Because the WOMAN (representing Israel) fled into the wilderness?! How do we know that this is the same as the Jews "fleeing to the mountains?" No, THIS is a "stretch!"

No, as Hebrews 10 says above, the sacrifices WERE stopped when Yeshua` died upon the cross! He was the FINAL sacrifice that mattered! What is the difference between a slaughter and a sacrifice? It's whether or not GOD accepts it as a sacrifice! All of the other attempted sacrifices from Yeshua` to the Temple destruction were merely slaughters that served no purpose, as far as God was concerned.

Of course, they will; Psalm 118:26 says that they will welcome Him from the Temple! However, the Temple that will matter is the one that Yeshua` shall build when He returns (Ezekiel's Temple).

Now, here is the fiction. This is where you begin to fail in your understanding of Scripture. The burden of proof is on you all to prove that this "man of sin" or "man of lawlessness" is the same as Revelation's "Beast." Furthermore, you don't KNOW that this is the fulfillment of Daniel 9. In fact, it IS NOT!

And, since you bring it up again, I guess I'll go ahead and comment: I'm supposed to accept that Yeshua the Messiah of God singled YOU out to speak to you about the "midpoint?" Who are you supposed to be? Sorry, I'm not buying it; I'll not "drink the kool-aid!" STICK TO THE SCRIPTURES!!! If Yeshua` said ANYTHING to you, He should have pointed you to Scripture that SAYS EXACTLY that there even IS a "midpoint!" (There's not.) LEARN TO DIG DEEPER IN SCRIPTURES and leave the pseudo-visions to the false prophets!

There are five mentions of the 3.5 years period of time mentioned in Revelation, all for the LAST HALF of the 70th week. Therefore, we can determine by logic that chapters 11 through 13 are MIDPOINT chapters, due to these five mentions. We can determine from Daniel that some event (Not Jesus being cut off) such as happened with Antiochus) will cause the sacrifices to cease. (NOT the REASON for them to cease, but REALLY cease: because the temple was polluted and would have to be cleansed. 

We can determine from Paul what event will cause the sacrifices to cease: a copy of what Antiochus did: pollute the temple. The man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. At that moment the daily sacrifices will cease - as Daniel has told us.  Since chapters 11-13 are midpoint chapters, we know then that this abomination that causes the sacrifices to cease will happen somewhere in John's timeline in chapters 11-13.  John was not show the abomination so did not write of it. 

Jesus then said that those who SEE the abomination must flee.  Chapter 12 tells us of this fleeing. Putting all these verses together, it is no stretch at all that this fleeing is what Jesus spoke of.

No, as Hebrews 10 says above, the sacrifices WERE stopped when Yeshua` died upon the cross!   Sorry, but you confusing English terms. The truth is, the REASON or PURPOSE for the sacrifices ended. But the Jews were confused, missed their Messiah, and continued on with their sacrifices: they did NOT stop.  Daniel was not talking about the PURPOSE or REASON for the sacrifices: he just made a plain statement: they would cease. You are reading into that text what is not there. 

I'm supposed to accept that Yeshua the Messiah of God singled YOU out to speak to you about the "midpoint?"   What are you talking about? God will speak to ANYONE who believes what Jesus said: "my sheep know my voice..." We ALL should be hearing His voice. Why would I lie about such a thing? As a fellow believer in Christ, I am giving testimony of exactly what He said to me. Of course it is up to you to believe it or not.  I think your problem is preconceived theories that Jesus disagrees with - so of course you don't believe it was HIM.

Just so you will always know: there is a WAY to get God to teach scripture to you: but it probably won't work if you have skipped over Acts 1 & 2 in your Christian walk. Take any scripture you don't understand, and begin to meditate on it, day and night. Then pray in the spirit (here is the rub: many people CAN'T pray in the spirit) and wait for God to teach. He is always faithful! However, it will take patience. 

The first time God spoke to me about scripture, I was bugged about the signs that follow believers - so I began to bug God about those verses in Mark 16. I don't think I missed one day in 6 months (that would be like 180 days of bugging Him!) of coming to God about it. And of course I was praying in the Spirit. One day as I started: "God..." That is as far as I got. He spoke and gave me understanding of those verses.

This is all scriptural: Jesus said "up this ROCK I will build my church. The ROCK was revealed knowledge.

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, OldCoot said:

that was a affirmation of Hosea 5:14-15 in conjunction with Psalms 118:26

Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

Psalms 118:26 (NKJV) Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.

 

Shabbat shalom, OldCoot.

No problem with this. Is there a statement or a question in there somewhere?

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, OldCoot.

No problem with this. Is there a statement or a question in there somewhere?

Nope.  Just adding some more scriptural support of what Yeshua was commenting on in Matthew 23.    Kinda following the prescription in the Torah that a matter cannot be established without the testimony of at least 2 witnesses.  The Bereans in Acts 17 showed how that works in that they searched the scriptures daily (the OT / Tanakh) to see if what Paul was teaching was true.   Most of what Paul taught became a large portion of the NT.  So the two witnesses available to us are the NT and OT.  You provided the Matthew 23 section.  I just provided the Hosea section supporting it.  Thereby adhering to the standard.

Shabbat Shalom!

Cliff

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by OldCoot
spelling

[Dennis1209]

19 hours ago, OldCoot said:

And the day of vengeance of our God;

The longest semi colon in the Bible; about 2,000 years so far and it's so very close. Not many notice where Jesus purposely left off to make a point.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Good job here, OldCoot!

Shabbat shalom, OldCoot and iamlamad.

Gentlemen, my question was "Where else in the Scriptures is there ANY REASON AT ALL for God to split off any portion of the 70 Sevens and put a gap of almost TWO THOUSAND YEARS in between?"

I'm not contesting that there WAS/IS a "gap"; I'm questioning WHY there was a need at all for the gap! Where in the Scriptures does God give a reason for why He put the gap in these 490 years? WHY are they not consecutive years?

I believe the need was two-fold:

First, it was because of the "overspreading of abominations" among the children of Israel, particularly the children of Yhudah (Jews), during the First Coming of the Messiah Yeshua`,

and 

Second, it was to give ample time to bring in the "other sheep" - the Gentile believers that God would raise among all peoples while the children of Israel were temporarily "shelved."

See, believers ("Christians") generally don't understand Daniel 9:27, especially the second half of the verse.

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dani'eel 9:27 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH)

27 ...Vhigbiyr briyt laarabiym shaaVuwa` 'echaad vahatsiy hashaaVuwa` yashbiyt zeVah uwminchah v`al knaf shiquwtsiym mshomeem v`ad kaalaah vnecheraatsaah titakh `al shomeem:

27 ... Vhigbiyr = 27 ... And-shall-confirm/strengthen
briyt = a-covenant (an-"in-cutting")
laarabiym = to-many
shaaVuwa` = Seven
'echaad = one
vahatsiy = and-in-middle
hashaaVuwa` = of-the-Seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-bring-to-an-end
zeVah = sacrifice
uwminchah = and-gift
v`al = and-against/upon
knaf = a-spread-out-wing
shiquwtsiym = of-abominations
mshomeem = shall-be-one-who-makes-desolate
v`ad = and-until
kaalaah = [the]-full-end
vnecheraatsaah = and-that-which-is-determined
titakh = is-poured
`al = against/upon
shomeem: = [the]-desolate:

Hebrew lesson:

The highlighted letters above are actual letters in the Hebrew alefbet ("alphabet"):
' = alef (the explosive sound at the beginning of words like apple, egg, and umbrella)
b = bet (at the beginning of a word or with a dot)
V = Vet (without a dot not at the beginning of a word)
g = gimmel
d = dalet
h = hei
v (or w) = vav
z = zayin
ch = chet
T = Tet
y = yod
k = kaf (at the beginning of a word or with a dot)
kh = khaf (without a dot not at the beginning of a word)
l = lamed
m = mem
n = nun
c = samekh
` = `ayin (a swallowed g sound as in the onomatopoeia "gulp!")
p = peh (at the beginning of a word or with a dot)
f = feh (without a dot not at the beginning of a word)
ts = tsadday
q = qof
r = resh
sh = shin
s = sin
t = tav (with or without the dot)

The unhighlighted letters are vowel pointing:
a = patach, a as in father
aa = qaamets, aw as in paw
e = segowl, e as in bed
ee = tseeree', ay as in day
i = chireeq, ee as in bee
iy = chireeq with yod, ee as in bee
o = cholem, o as in row
ow = cholem with vav, o as in row
u = qibbuts, oo as in pool
uw = shureq, oo as in pool
(no letter between consonants) = shva' (may be pronounced as a consonant blend or with a shwa sound, "uh")

The prefixes are ...
v- (or uw-) = and (a connective or conjunction)
b- (or uV-) = in
h- = the (a definite article)
l - = to/for
m- = with
y- = he-shall ... (3rd person, masculine, singular)

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Nope.  Just adding some more scriptural support of what Yeshua was commenting on in Matthew 23.    Kinda following the prescription in the Torah that a matter cannot be established without the testimony of at least 2 witnesses.  The Bereans in Acts 17 showed how that works in that they searched the scriptures daily (the OT or Tanakh) to see if what Paul was teaching was true.   Most of what Paul taught became a large portion of the NT.  So the two witnesses are the NT and OT.  You provided the Matthew 23 section.  I just provided the Hosea section supporting it.  Thereby adhering to the standard.

Shabbat Shalom!

Cliff

 

Shalom, Cliff, vayowm rishown sameach!

Todah! Thanks!

Edited December 8, 2019 by Retrobyter

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, OldCoot and iamlamad.

Gentlemen, my question was "Where else in the Scriptures is there ANY REASON AT ALL for God to split off any portion of the 70 Sevens and put a gap of almost TWO THOUSAND YEARS in between?"

I'm not contesting that there WAS/IS a "gap"; I'm questioning WHY there was a need at all for the gap! Where in the Scriptures does God give a reason for why He put the gap in these 490 years? WHY are they not consecutive years?

I believe the need was two-fold:

First, it was because of the "overspreading of abominations" among the children of Israel, particularly the children of Yhudah (Jews), during the First Coming of the Messiah Yeshua`,

and 

Second, it was to give ample time to bring in the "other sheep" - the Gentile believers that God would raise among all peoples while the children of Israel were temporarily "shelved."

See, believers ("Christians") generally don't understand Daniel 9:27, especially the second half of the verse.

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I agree with you here: there was (and still is) a GREAT price to pay for rejecting their long awaited Messiah at His first coming. Now many of the Jews and Hebrews living around the world imagine God rejected them so they will reject him - or they have become total atheists. And there will be a great price to pay for that. Finally, many of those living in Israel put their trust in their IDF rather than in God, and they will pay a price for that too. There will ALWAYS be a penalty for rejecting God and His Redeemer.