Righteousness Exalts A Nation

[BibleGuy]

13 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

thank you bible guy. I'm really concerned about this literal millennial reign teaching. There is no context of a millennial reign in the two verses containing "thousand years" in the Old Testament. Whenever that phrase is used ( OT or NT) it appears to be symbolizing God's time or the completeness of time, especially in the highly allegorical Book of Revelation.

Having said that I like to ask whoever is interested in answering:

For what purpose is there for Christ to return to a sin cursed Earth and set up a temporary Kingdom? Isn't now the time to get right with God? Is not now the "day of salvation"(not "now plus a thousand years)?

The Bible only speaks of a second coming of Christ. In Hebrews 9:28 Jesus comes the second time "without sin, unto salvation". It sounds like Jesus is not going to be dealing with any sin at all including this sin  cursed earth ...it sounds like He's coming in glory  " bringing many sons unto glory" Heb.2:10. 

If possible later on I would like to give my take on the six "thouaand year"verses in Revelation 20 and how they can find harmony with each other. Thank you.

Hi there!

 

"I'm really concerned about this literal millennial reign teaching."

Ok...let's chat about it!

 

"There is no context of a millennial reign in the two verses containing "thousand years" in the Old Testament. Whenever that phrase is used ( OT or NT) it appears to be symbolizing God's time or the completeness of time, especially in the highly allegorical Book of Revelation."

I see no good reason to suppose Dt. 7:9 is not literal.  And, 1000 generations is a good 40,000 years from the time of Moses....and we are only some 3500 years into that promised 40,000 year time period.....

So we've got a LONG LONG time to go!

We are VERY EARLY in human history.

 

"For what purpose is there for Christ to return to a sin cursed Earth and set up a temporary Kingdom?"

We might not understand all God's reasons....and we shouldn't expect to understand them all either (Is.55:9;Rom.11:33).

 

" Isn't now the time to get right with God?"

Yes!  TODAY is the day of salvation.  Repent!  Obey Torah!

 

" Is not now the "day of salvation"(not "now plus a thousand years)?"

TODAY is the day of salvation.  That was true 2000 years ago when written...and it's still true now....thus proving that the TODAY is not a 24-hour period....thus opening the door to the possibility that TODAY will also extend LONG into the future.

After all, this TODAY is a TIME PERIOD....not a 24-hour period....otherwise 2Cor.6:2 would only be true for 24 hours!

 

"The Bible only speaks of a second coming of Christ."

Well ok....I suppose it does not talk about a third coming....true.

 

Heb 9:28?  Yes, we will be perfected at that time, and no longer sin.  BUT!  That doesn't prove that ALL people on the planet will be in glorified sinless perfected bodies at that time.

 

And, Jesus will rule with a strong ROD OF IRON (Ps.2:9) which would be NEEDLESSLY HARSH if everybody were sinless at that time.

 

And, Jesus will rebuild the temple (Zec.6) with sacrifices He will restore (Mal.3:4) in that temple (Eze.40-47)...and that includes SIN OFFERINGS....thus proving that sin is not absent from earth at that time.

 

And, Is.65:20 confirms EXTENDED lifespan....BUT STILL DEATH.....thus confirming sin is still present.

 

And, Is.65:20 confirms that the CURSE will still be in force....thus confirming that some still sin at that time.

 

Sure, the Messiah's objective is (among other things) to bring many sons to glory (Heb.2:10)....but that doesn't prove that sin is not on earth when the Messiah is ruling on earth.

 

Anyway, let me know your thoughts on the Millennium if you like...thanks!

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

9 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

yes... still going over everything you sent( I got to work too..lol). Picked out a couple things though: 

  1)         Dt.7:9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, He is God, the faithful God, which keepeth  covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

This is a great example of symbolism. Who are those that love Him and keep his commandments?

" He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me ; and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." Jn 14:21

This is a beautiful promise for all of God's children who will be in obedience to Him into eternity (" a thousand generations")....He will keep His covenant or agreement with us that he is made before the world began the promise of eternal inheritance.

2) I do think it's really important that you pointed out you do not see any evidence in scripture of a third coming of Christ.

3) 1 Cor.6:2....(Amen)                  "... one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."     2Peter 3:8                                 Wow. God surely sees time differently than we do. Talk to you later.

OK!  Have fun at work!

By the way, what are your reasons for NOT interpreting Dt. 7:9 literally?

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Actually I stated my reasons in the last post regarding Dt.7:9. " a thousand generations" is like saying "a completeness of time...in this context for ever". You can see in many verses where the number of ten hundred or a thousand is representing the value of completeness in the context of the scripture.

Ecclesiastes 8-12 is a good example: " Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged..."          is God confining that sinner to exactly 100 acts of evil? Or is it a way of saying there's a completeness to the acts of evil one commits.

Psalm 50:10 " For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle Upon A thousand Hills" 

   so what happens to the cattle thats on the 1001st hill? Does it still belong to God? Or is this not a poetic way of saying that God has complete ownership over his creation?

"Actually I stated my reasons in the last post regarding Dt.7:9. " a thousand generations" is like saying "a completeness of time...in this context for ever". You can see in many verses where the number of ten hundred or a thousand is representing the value of completeness in the context of the scripture."

 

Well, the problem is this:  You could just as well interpret Dt. 7:9 LITERALLY.

And, given the choice, we MUST favor the literal interpretation.....

Otherwise you'll slide down the slippery slope of "symbolically" interpreting ALL KINDS of things which should NOT actually be symbolically interpreted.

 

So, looks like my hermeneutics won't allow your interpretation in my view.

 

blessings...

 

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by BibleGuy

[BibleGuy]

1 hour ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

I'm saying this in love ( not trying to be smart here). Who determines the degree of slipperiness in this slope? Anyone who studies the Bible spiritualizing scripture in one degree or another. 

1Cor.2:12-13 " now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God ; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak ,not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

And so this is how we are to study the Bible. I pray about what I'm reading, teaching or studying. If I'm not completely comfortable in saying something I won't. I'm also always in the mode of learning, so it is very good to have these discussions.

 

 

 

Yes, we are all learning.....that's good!

 

" Who determines the degree of slipperiness in this slope?"

WE do.  WE determine whether to interpret a passage literally or symbolically.

After all, we are the readers....we are interpreting text.

 

AND, we must FAVOR literal interpretations over symbolic interpretations....lest we slide down the slippery slope of symbolically interpreting everything.....

So we MUST have a better rationale behind our hermeneutics....we can't just say: "It's possible to interpret verse X symbolically, so therefore I will do so".

Rather, it's better to be like this:

 

1. Examine the pros and cons of the alternative interpretive options.

2. Determine where the weight of evidence lies.

3. Proceed with the best interpretation, given the available evidence.

 

And, this better process will help PREVENT us from simply resorting to "symbolic" interpretations whenever we feel like it.

 

Anyway, maybe this helps better explain my resistance to your symbolic interpretation of Dt. 7:9.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

32 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

1Cor.2:12-13 " now we havereceived, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God ; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak ,not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

 

Yes.  But we must not use this as an excuse for wanton hermeneutics.

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

7 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Certainly.We all want to be careful. I think about the fact that Jesus overcame death. "Death is swallowed up in victory". Truly thats what God is saving us from, and thats eternal death.

Amen!

 

[BibleGuy]

15 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

??

DOUBLE AMEN!