Is Jesus still subject to God

[Atalyah]

I'm not a JW, but I don't believe the Trinity, and I know lots of Christians who don't believe it either. I've studied it for quite a while, and through reading and prayer, have concluded that there's very many reasons not to believe it, and don't see very many reasons to believe it, other than people getting after you if you don't.

What I find most absurd that, if it were true, we would expect to see a lot of discussion on it within the NT. How it works, ect. Instead, when we see the apostles expounding on the sacrifice of Christ, we find them insisting on Jesus being fully and completely like us with no mention of any supposed diety.

And so, when you hear people try to talk about or explain the trinity, you invariably hear heaps of unScriptural terminology, and strange analogies. Like this idea of the hypostatic union. It doesn't solve any problems, and creates some to boot. Firstly, that's just not in Scripture. Scripture doesn't even say that Jesus had one nature, never mind two. It doesn't solve any problems, and creates some to boot.

1. The Bible says that God cannot be tempted. Jesus was.

2. The Bible says that God cannot die. Jesus did.

3. The Bible says that God cannot be seen by man. Jesus was.

In relation to point one, somehow the hypostatic union is supposed to explain this contradiction, and claims that Jesus can be both tempted and not tempted at the same time. It just makes no sense. He'd have to be 2 people, not just two "natures", whatever that's supposed to mean in the first place. Was he tempted, or wasn't he? He couldn't be half tempted. It's meaningless. It just doesn't make any sense that one nature could do what the other nature couldn't do.

In relation to point two, it doesn't explain it. What died on the cross? Did Jesus simply lose his "man" nature for a moment, while his "God" nature lived on? Where does Scripture say that. Either Jesus died or he didn't.

Also, the hypostatic union is supposed to explain how Jesus could be co-equal and also not equal at the same time. Equal "ontologically" (his nature), and "positionally" unequal. What kind of sense does that make? If he's got two natures, one that's flesh, then he couldn't be ontologically equal either.

The whole thing is a confusing mess. Don't let your minds be corrupted from the "simplicity that is in Christ".

[EricH]

I'm not a JW, but I don't believe the Trinity, and I know lots of Christians who don't believe it either.  I've studied it for quite a while, and through reading and prayer, have concluded that there's very many reasons not to believe it, and don't see very many reasons to believe it, other than people getting after you if you don't. 

What I find most absurd that, if it were true, we would expect to see a lot of discussion on it within the NT.  How it works, ect.  Instead, when we see the apostles expounding on the sacrifice of Christ, we find them insisting on Jesus being fully and completely like us with no mention of any supposed diety. 

And so, when you hear people try to talk about or explain the trinity, you invariably hear heaps of unScriptural terminology, and strange analogies.  Like this idea of the hypostatic union.  It doesn't solve any problems, and creates some to boot.  Firstly, that's just not in Scripture.  Scripture doesn't even say that Jesus had one nature, never mind two.  It doesn't solve any problems, and creates some to boot. 

1.  The Bible says that God cannot be tempted.  Jesus was.

2.  The Bible says that God cannot die.  Jesus did.

3.  The Bible says that God cannot be seen by man.  Jesus was.

In relation to point one, somehow the hypostatic union is supposed to explain this contradiction, and claims that Jesus can be both tempted and not tempted at the same time.  It just makes no sense.  He'd have to be 2 people, not just two  "natures", whatever that's supposed to mean in the first place.  Was he tempted, or wasn't he?  He couldn't be half tempted.  It's meaningless.  It just doesn't make any sense that one nature could do what the other nature couldn't do. 

In relation to point two, it doesn't explain it.  What died on the cross?  Did Jesus simply lose his "man" nature for a moment, while his "God" nature lived on?  Where does Scripture say that.  Either Jesus died or he didn't.

Also, the hypostatic union is supposed to explain how Jesus could be co-equal and also not equal at the same time.  Equal "ontologically" (his nature), and "positionally" unequal.  What kind of sense does that make?  If he's got two natures, one that's flesh, then he couldn't be ontologically equal either. 

The whole thing is a confusing mess.  Don't let your minds be corrupted from the "simplicity that is in Christ".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Two questions for you:

1. How do you explain Jesus' claims to be God?

2. If Jesus was not God, what was He exactly?

[seraph]

I'm not a JW, but I don't believe the Trinity, and I know lots of Christians who don't believe it either.  I've studied it for quite a while, and through reading and prayer, have concluded that there's very many reasons not to believe it, and don't see very many reasons to believe it, other than people getting after you if you don't. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well of course if you're looking for reasons not to place your faith in Christ you can easily find a bunch of excuses composed from lies and half-truths... the Truth; however, is found in God's Word...

4. The Bible says God cannot lie (Titus 1:1-4). He doesn't.

"But of the Son He says,

[Guest shiloh357]

What I find most absurd that, if it were true, we would expect to see a lot of discussion on it within the NT.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Atalyah,

I'm not a JW, but I don't believe the Trinity, and I know lots of Christians who don't believe it either.  I've studied it for quite a while, and through reading and prayer, have concluded that there's very many reasons not to believe it, and don't see very many reasons to believe it, other than people getting after you if you don't.

Simply put, you are misunderstanding the scriptures or in a group that teaches a false doctrine. Below and other verses reveal the trinity:

Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

In case "you don't get it", we see Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father in the above.

1.  The Bible says that God cannot be tempted.  Jesus was.

James 1:13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Your lack of proper hermeneutics divulge your lack of understanding. The first rule of hermeneutics is CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Notice that when a man is tempted, he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. God is saying that HE CANNOT BE DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST AND ENTICED.

2.  The Bible says that God cannot die.  Jesus did.

Being fully human as well as fully divine, Jesus had the authority to lay down His life AND TO TAKE IT UP AGAIN, FOR THE GRAVE COULD NOT HOLD HIM:

John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

3.  The Bible says that God cannot be seen by man.  Jesus was.

John 14:8-10 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 Cor 2:9-14 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Simply put, you are a "natural man", you should not think that you can receive anything from God unless you repent and follow HIS SON.

Your Servant in Christ,

Dad Ernie

[Atalyah]

I'm not a JW, but I don't believe the Trinity, and I know lots of Christians who don't believe it either.

[Atalyah]

I'm not a JW, but I don't believe the Trinity, and I know lots of Christians who don't believe it either.

[eric]

Let's go back to the OP;..Is Jesus still under the authority of God?

Zhav, if you read the 28th chapter of Mathew, you will find in verse 18, that Jesus told his disciples, when they returned from the mountain, and after His resurrection, that all power has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

If Jesus says He has all power, then I must believe just that. What else can it mean? What part ofall can't you inderstand?

Edited July 4, 2005 by eric

[Atalyah]

Isaiah 7:14

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23

"Behold, the virgin shall be with CHILD, AND SHALL BEAR A Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us."

Here the Scriptures say that He is called "God with us."

"Immanuel" doesn't tell us that Jesus is God, but that in his life, God has intervened to save the people. The parents of Ithiel (God is with me) didn't believe their offspring to be diety.

Here is what the Scriptures say further about this virgin born child:

Isaiah 9:6

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;

And the government will rest on His shoulders;

And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,

Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Now those are quite interesting titles for someone to hold. Here is Jesus is referred to as both the "Eternal Father," and "Mighty God." I would like to point out that God is jealous for His glory. He will not share His glory with anyone else. He will not allow anyone but Himself to be venerated as God.

The title El Gibor for "Mighty God," ascribes deity to the child in verse 6. It is rendered by Martin Luther as "Strong Hero" and by others as "Hero of Strength." These are not the meanings of El Gibor, as they fail to render the Hebrew properly. El is never used except to denote the God of Scripture. It is always God, and yet it is being applied to a human child. How can this be?

We find El Gibor also used in Isaiah 10:20-21

Isaiah 10:20-21 And it shall be in that day, the remnant of Israel, and those who have escaped from the house of Jacob, shall never again lean on him who struck them; but truly lean on Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel. (21) The remnant shall return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. It is again, the title El Gibor being used here. The child of Isaiah 9:6 is the same "El Gibor" to whom the remnant of Israel shall one day return. The El Gibor of Isaiah 9:6, and 10:21 are none other than Jesus/Yeshua!

"El" actually isn't always used to denote God. For example:

Deuteronomy 28:32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand.

The word "might" here is also "el". In the AV, it's also translated 'strong', 'mighty' goodly', and even 'idols'.

That aside, even if we just stick to saying that he's called mighty God in the kingdom, I've got no problems with that. He's worthy of that title. Of an angel, we read that"my name is in him", and angels are called God when they represent him. But Christ has obtained a more excellent name than them.

Isaiah 42:8

"I am the Lord, that is My name;

I will not give My glory to another,

Nor My praise to graven images.

Calling Jesus Eternal Father, Mighty God, would amount to giving Him Glory that God reserves for Himself alone. Since it is God talking in Isaiah 9:6, that means that the child being Glorified in that verse,must therefore be God.

Furthermore, Jesus is called both Lord and Savior.

Luke 2:11

for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Acts 5:31

"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:23

"From the offspring of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,

to Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

God has exalted Jesus. Paul says that God is the Father. Sure, Jesus is the saviour, and he is our Lord and Master, but this is because God has exalted him to be so.

In Isaiah it is also written,

Isaiah 43:11

"I, even I, am the Lord;

And there is no Savior besides Me.

So if the God is refuses to allow anyone to share His glory with Him, calls Himself the Lord, and He is the only Savior of Israel, Jesus could not be Lord and Savior without being God. Again it is written in the book of Hosea the prophet:

Hosea 13:4

Yet I have been the Lord your God

Since the land of Egypt;

And you were not to know any god except Me,

For there is no savior besides Me.

Jesus is our Savior, and there is no Savior besides Him, and there is no Savior but God, so the Apostles were correct when they said:

Acts 4:12

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."

Christ can be called our saviour, and yet not be God, as he was provided by God. For example, Othniel was called a saviour. Judges 3:9 "And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer (Heb. saviour) to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb

[Remnantrob]

Colossians 2:8-10 says:

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

  9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

  10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

I believe that Jesus is my Savior and Lord. When it comes down to if you are saved or not, Jesus is in the center of the issue of Salvation. Christ is the self-existing one and he laid down his life only to take it up again and prove that not even death had a hold over him. But He only rose when his father called him, so I believe that he is in subjection in the sense that God's will is supreme(although i don't believe that Jesus' will was/is in anyway contrary to the father's).

To take away divinity from Jesus is to take away life from man. It would mean that there is no hope and that Life wouldn't be worth living. I'm convinced that God is a God of order and he planned a way for us in case we fell and that plan was manifested in Christ Jesus. I also think that since everything that was made was made by and for him, that he is the God that is referred to all throughout the old testament. I believe that since finite beings can't comprehend infinite God, that infinite Jesus became cloth with finite man to reveal infinite God.