Is purgatory real?

[Resurrection Priest]

Here is Paul, writing to the believers - former non-Hebrew pagans.

Ephesians 2:11 “Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (which is done in the body by human hands)-- 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world” (NIV).

"Without hope and without God" sounds very "lost" to me. 

How did those people become born again believers?  Answer:  They HEARD the Gospel preached to them - by Paul, and others.

Here is Paul complaining to the authorities that he must be allowed to preach the Gospel.

    I Thessalonians 3:16   [Persecution by Jews and pagans] “forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved,”

   To paraphrase Paul, “If we don’t speak to the Gentiles about Christ, they cannot be saved.” You must HEAR the truth, to BELIEVE it.  

What is the point of Jesus command to "go therefore and teach all nations", if folks can know about "God" and "His eternal power and Godhead" without being taught?

 

Romans 1:18-20 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness, of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,  because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,  being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse . . .”

First:  The text is speaking of "wrath" against "men who suppress the truth".  One must at least have the conviction of truth, before one can knowingly "suppress the truth". 

If just looking at the works of creation was enough to convince anyone that Yahweh exists, and is a God of love, and has a law which everyone must obey, then there would be NO SUCH THING as “sins of ignorance” - not since folks began looking at the stars.  But since there were “times of ignorance” and God “overlooked” those times, this means just looking at the natural universe does NOT tell everyone about the attributes of the God of the Bible. 

Acts 17:30 “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent” [when they HEAR the truth] (NKJ).

Now - since Darwin, science (so called) has convinced most folks that everything evolved from a bit of planetary dust?  No evolutionary theory was taught back in Paul's day, as fact.  Secular archeologists mock the Bible as a historical book, saying the prophecies and laws were all written much later by priests and prophets who stood to profit.

 

 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

Romans 10:14 “But how are they to call on One in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in One of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim Him?” (NRS)

    Romans 10:17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.” (NRS)

Hearing the gospel message - is essential!  
There are millions of human beings who have died without any knowledge of God
or of His Son.  They must be resurrected, so that they can hear.

II Timothy 1:9  Grace was given before time began, but has now been “revealed through the gospel.”

        The grace of God was “given before time began”.  Yes - God pledged the life of His only Son. Yes - God has protected men from complete control by demons, and from complete annihilation.  But that grace is now revealed through the telling of the gospel.  The “call” to salvation in Christ is information based.  The information was/is conveyed through preaching, or teaching, first by Jesus Himself and then by His followers.  Upon hearing the gospel, individuals must respond in order to appropriate that grace for themselves.  Salvation is not passive.  The LORD will not save you, without a response on your part. 

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 “Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.”

Ephesians 1:13  “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,”

Heard - believed - trusted - sealed with the Spirit - confessed and shared the good news.  This is the order of things. 

 

[JoeMo]

 

"Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." (John 9:40-41)

Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."(Romans 7:7-8)

One could argue that those who are ignorant of the law have not sinned; so how could they be condemned to death.  The wages of sin are death.  Where there is no sin, there is no wage of death.

Yet, to enter the Kingdom, all must agree to comply to the Law.  People who are ignorant of Jesus and the scripture (for whatever the reason) are not guilty of sin, so how can they be condemned?  But they must learn of God and His Family values and agrees to abide by them before they can enter the Kingdom of heaven.  It seems logical to me that these are "the rest of the dead" are those that are resurrected at the end of the Millennium.

Just my opinion.

[fileoflife]

@Kenzie, i think like a child here, 2 Thessalonians is the Chapter of The Resurrection and Second Coming, { please read this chapter } NKJV- Verse 16" For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangle,and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. v17-Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

He didn't say any other places But The Two, those dead in Him, and those still alive in Him......

this deeply saddens me that folks teach differently, as His children, I humbly believe if there was a purgatory that this chapter would have told us so, Jesus don't want us to be deceived, and we know He ain't gonna Lie to us......Blessings to you In Spirit and In Truth, talk to Jesus, honest, He will show you great and mighty things, He wants us to Seek Him, He's The Truth Forever, Amen

[Resurrection Priest]

28 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

 

"Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." (John 9:40-41)

Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."(Romans 7:7-8)

One could argue that those who are ignorant of the law have not sinned; so how could they be condemned to death.  The wages of sin are death.  Where there is no sin, there is no wage of death.

Yet, to enter the Kingdom, all must agree to comply to the Law.  People who are ignorant of Jesus and the scripture (for whatever the reason) are not guilty of sin, so how can they be condemned?  But they must learn of God and His Family values and agrees to abide by them before they can enter the Kingdom of heaven.  It seems logical to me that these are "the rest of the dead" are those that are resurrected at the end of the Millennium.

Just my opinion.

I think the ignorant are still "without God" and "without hope" because eternal life is received ONLY through Christ.  He is the only way. 

Definitely says the LORD holds people more guilty, the more they are aware of.   The reason why James said "let not many of you aspire to be teachers, for they will be held to a higher standard". 

Those ignorant of "the law" are not guilty of rebellion against GOD.   That's what they are "not guilty" of.   

They still have "sinned".  It's just that the blood of Jesus "covers" their sins of ignorance, until they become aware of them.  That happens when they HEAR of GOD, and become aware of HIS Law. 

The morning/evening "continual" sacrifice "covered" sins of ignorance, UNTIL the sinner was made aware that he had sin.  THEN a sin offering was required. 

This "covering" is why "the rest of the dead" can be resurrected at the 8th millennium, HEAR the Gospel and the Law, and then have to CHOOSE whom they will serve.  Based on that CHOICE, they will either enter the Kingdom of GOD, or be consumed by the fire of GOD at Gog/Magog. 

[Resurrection Priest]

7 minutes ago, fileoflife said:

@Kenzie, i think like a child here, 2 Thessalonians is the Chapter of The Resurrection and Second Coming, { please read this chapter } NKJV- Verse 16" For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangle,and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. v17-Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

He didn't say any other places But The Two, those dead in Him, and those still alive in Him......

this deeply saddens me that folks teach differently, as His children, I humbly believe if there was a purgatory that this chapter would have told us so, Jesus don't want us to be deceived, and we know He ain't gonna Lie to us......Blessings to you In Spirit and In Truth, talk to Jesus, honest, He will show you great and mighty things, He wants us to Seek Him, He's The Truth Forever, Amen

The passage you site in 2Thessalonians is talking about those "in Christ" - those "written in the Book".  About what will happen for them - at the Glorious Return.  

What will happen to the enemies of God is NOT ADDRESSED in the passage you sited. 

Daniel 12:1-2 describes TWO types of people, in a massive resurrection. 

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then [the last plagues]. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Revelation 19:20 describes how "the beast" and "the false prophet" will be throne into the "lake of fire" at the Glorious Return.  Those are not just two people.  They are massive systems that deceived and warred against the people of God and Christ. 

Revelation 20:5 speaks of the THIRD GROUP - "the rest of the dead".  They are NOT RESURRECTED at the Glorious Return.  "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years are finished.  (This is the first resurrection.)" 

These do not belong to Christ.  They also are not raised "to shame and everlasting contempt".  Why?  Because they did not yet CHOOSE.  Why?  Because they lived and died in ignorance.  It is only just, that they be allowed to HEAR and then to CHOOSE.  If not - then they are just collateral damage.  I don't believe our GOD will leave anyone behind, who might have been saved, had they HEARD. 

[fileoflife]

@Resurrection Priest, thank you for your comment, but I don't believe in purgatory....

[Resurrection Priest]

Just now, Resurrection Priest said:

The passage you site in 2Thessalonians is talking about those "in Christ" - those "written in the Book".  About what will happen for them - at the Glorious Return.  

What will happen to the enemies of God is NOT ADDRESSED in the passage you sited. 

Daniel 12:1-2 describes TWO types of people, in a massive resurrection. 

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then [the last plagues]. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Revelation 19:20 describes how "the beast" and "the false prophet" will be throne into the "lake of fire" at the Glorious Return.  Those are not just two people.  They are massive systems that deceived and warred against the people of God and Christ. 

Revelation 20:5 speaks of the THIRD GROUP - "the rest of the dead".  They are NOT RESURRECTED at the Glorious Return.  "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years are finished.  (This is the first resurrection.)" 

These do not belong to Christ.  They also are not raised "to shame and everlasting contempt".  Why?  Because they did not yet CHOOSE.  Why?  Because they lived and died in ignorance.  It is only just, that they be allowed to HEAR and then to CHOOSE.  If not - then they are just collateral damage.  I don't believe our GOD will leave anyone behind, who might have been saved, had they HEARD. 

If you believe that man was created with an "immortal soul" (two words not used together in Scripture), then you would also have to believe that a person's "soul" has to go somewhere (Heaven or Hell or Purgatory) when that person dies.  I personally believe that death is an unconscious sleep.  That is consistent with many, many passages of Scripture.  So - no reason for a conscious "soul" to leave the body and go anywhere. 

Acts 7:60   Stephen “fell asleep.”           Acts 13:36   David “fell asleep.”               

I Thessalonians 4:14-15   “those who are asleep”
I Corinthians 15:6,18   “some have fallen asleep”
I Corinthians 11:30   “many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep”

Psalm 13:3  “lest I sleep the sleep of death”
Daniel 12:2  “them that sleep in the dust”
Job 3:13  “then I should have slept”   
Job 14:12  “nor be raised out of their sleep”
Jeremiah 51:39  “and sleep a perpetual sleep”

 

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (KJV)

Body + Spirit = "soul", or "being", a  "nephesh" or "breather - #05315

Man (a being) only has two parts - physical body + spirit (breath or wind or unseen force).      Without a "body" one is not alive.  

Lots of folks quote Paul in  2 Corinthians 12:2,3.    Paul here was speaking of his own condition while in vision.  I will leave you to look up that one.

The other passage of Paul is 2 Corinthians 5:1-8.  In this passage Paul describes THREE states. 

1. “earthy house” - “this tent” - “in this we groan” - “at home in the body” - “absent from the Lord”.    So this is the physical body we all go through life in. 

2.  “a building from God” - “a house eternal in the heavens” - “further clothed” - “clothed with our habitation from heaven” - “mortality swallowed up of life” -
“absent from the [physical] body” - “present with the Lord”.  This is the "spiritual body" (1Cor 15:44) those "in Christ" will receive at the Glorious Return, when we are "changed" at the resurrection. 

3.  “being clothed we shall not be found naked” - “unclothed”  

To be without either body - physical or spiritual - is to be dead, but completely remembered by GOD who will resurrect. 

 

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then [the last plagues]. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Some could make a pretty strong argument that there is 1,000 years between the resurrection to everlasting life and the resurrection of the to shame and everlasting contempt.  I know that for many years (decades, actually) I believed that only the righteous were resurrected at the second coming and the wicked were resurrected at the end of the millennium.  Now - after considerable study - I believe much like you do.

Outside of what is said in Rev. 20 - 22, I am still unclear on whether certain eschatological prophecies pertain to the beginning of the millennium beginning of the 8th.

[Guest K9Buck]

10 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I personally believe that death is an unconscious sleep.  That is consistent with many, many passages of Scripture. 

 

It's probably due to my limited understanding, but I find some scripture to be seemingly contradictory.  There's another passage that says something to the effect that "To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord".  And then there's Jesus telling the man on the cross that he would be in Heaven that day with Jesus.  Of course, I suppose Jesus has the authority to make an exception.