Rapture before the antichrist in Matthew 24

[ENOCH2010]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

Not sure why you are having trouble seeing evidence of a pretrib rapture as it's everywhere.

Matt 24

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The gathering is from heaven and earth. The church is already in heaven and is gathered from heaven to be with the Lord. The 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth are gathered from the earth at this gathering. Only the believers that flee go through the wrath of God and they do so in a place of protection.

Here is the church in heaven before the seals are opened. The 1st 6 seals are the tribulation.

Rev 5

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

God raptures the church pre trib. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. The Goodman will not know when He is coming.

God raptures the scattered 12 tribes pre wrath. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. That day will not take them unaware as they won't be in darkness. They are instructed to look up their redemption draws nigh.

You only see what you want to see.... 

Why are the saints in need of prayer if they are in heaven? 

Are you sure the "from one end of heaven to the other" is talking about Gods abode and not the sky? 

If you say Gods abode, do you believe in soul sleep? If not where are the millions of Christians that have died over the last 2000 years, could those be the ones gathered "from one end of heaven to the other"? 

I await you answers.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

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You only see what you want to see.... 

Thanks brother. Well put, cause I want to see the truth.

 

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Why are the saints in need of prayer if they are in heaven?

The Church is in heaven as they will be raptured prior to the seals being opened. God then turns his attention to the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. He will keep His promise to His people.

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Jer 8

²⁰ The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The 12 tribes will see that the Gentiles are raptured. Their eyes will be opened.

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

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Are you sure the "from one end of heaven to the other" is talking about Gods abode and not the sky?

Yeah

Rev 5

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

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If you say Gods abode, do you believe in soul sleep? If not where are the millions of Christians that have died over the last 2000 years, could those be the ones gathered "from one end of heaven to the other"? 

Not aware that any position can be backed up by scripture. Opinion is that it is likely that those that are gathered have new bodies. If you have scriptural proof of a position, I'm all ears.

 

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

No you missed THE POINT...........I know the word can be DAY because most of the time YOWM does mean day, but YOU MISS THE POINT, it doesn't have to mean day, it can mean MANY THINGS besides day !! And here it doesn't mean day because the Universe is 13.7 billion years old, it means a YOWM or period of time, INSERT THE TIME when you understand it..........I did, 9.2 billion years from when the Universe began til the Sun and earth were formed. 

I can not believe we actually still have people who think the Universe is 6000 years old.  Mind blown. Just leave it be man....

Shalom, Revelation Man.

You need to become a "Genesis Man!" A yowm is "an evening and a morning!" The spin of the earth to the light God created!

The truth is that the Creation Week was indeed a six-day period of creation and a seventh day of rest - a Shabbat ("Sabbath") - occurring from Friday evening sundown to Saturday evening sundown.

GOD HIMSELF said so!

Exodus 20:1-11 (KJV)

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 "I am the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH) thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Exodus 31: (KJV)

12 And the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH) spake unto Moses, saying, 

13 "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed."

So, if you have a beef about the 6,000 years, you have a beef with GOD! Take it up with Him!

You don't KNOW that "the Universe is 13.7 billion years old!" That's a highly imaginative INTERPRETATION of the limited evidence that scientists have accumulated with a limited view of GOD and a HORRIBLY BIASED interpretation at that! People complain of prejudice today, but there is NO ONE so prejudiced as an Evolutionist! It's not a prejudice against blacks or women or any human being; it's a prejudice against GOD ALMIGHTY! And, they will have to stand before Him in judgment one day! DON'T be included in their number!

The Day-Age theory for support of Evolution DOESN'T WORK!

Edited February 12, 2020 by Retrobyter
to put a name to the error

[ENOCH2010]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

 

Classic pre-trib doctrine, all opinion and no facts backed up by scripture.

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, The Light said:

Not sure why you are having trouble seeing evidence of a pretrib rapture as it's everywhere.

It is only if you desire it. 

15 hours ago, The Light said:

Matt 24

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The gathering is from heaven and earth. The church is already in heaven and is gathered from heaven to be with the Lord. The 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth are gathered from the earth at this gathering. Only the believers that flee go through the wrath of God and they do so in a place of protection.

Here is the church in heaven before the seals are opened. The 1st 6 seals are the tribulation.

Generally when the term 'ouranos' is used for God's abode it's clear:

"Our Father who is in heaven..."

"...kingdom of heaven..." etc.

Here in Matt and Mark it's probably the atmosphere as we see temporal ideas such as the four winds and the uttermost part of the earth. The context is temporal and this scripture is saying 'from everywhere on earth under the sky'. And even if there was a pretrib rapture it's not really proven here. There must be other scriptures showing timing and the event placing early arrivers in heaven after being taken off the earth; evidence which does not exist.

15 hours ago, The Light said:

Rev 5

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

God raptures the church pre trib. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. The Goodman will not know when He is coming.

Not sure about your point here. You do realize this "and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" has been true since time began, don't you? This is the remission of sin, not some fanciful notion of 'being abducted from one place and taken to another', which is what pretrib demands.

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

So no he was not. The very day of the wrath is when Noah was hidden in the ark. Just like Lot was saved, just like we will be; the same day wrath begins.

15 hours ago, The Light said:

God raptures the scattered 12 tribes pre wrath. The very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes. That day will not take them unaware as they won't be in darkness. They are instructed to look up their redemption draws nigh.

Is this coming from a dispensational replacement theology perspective? 

[Diaste]

On 2/10/2020 at 8:20 PM, Revelation Man said:

No you missed THE POINT...........I know the word can be DAY because most of the time YOWM does mean day, but YOU MISS THE POINT, it doesn't have to mean day, it can mean MANY THINGS besides day !! And here it doesn't mean day because the Universe is 13.7 billion years old, it means a YOWM or period of time, INSERT THE TIME when you understand it..........I did, 9.2 billion years from when the Universe began til the Sun and earth were formed. 

I think I saw that in the definition. 

Yowm: day. (unless the universe is really, really, really old)

"It doesn't mean day because the universe is 13.7 billion years old"

"It doesn't mean cup of water because the oceans are big."

This is fun.

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Yeah

Rev 5

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Okay. What's the scriptural link to Matt 24:31 and Mark 13:27? What here is similar in context to those verses? I mean, in the aforementioned verses we see events on earth: the sign of the Son of Man, the earth mourns, Jesus is seen in power and glory coming to earth, the trump sounds, all in the sight of men on earth. The quoted passage above is clearly in heaven right in the throne room and we see a song of praise been sung to our Father. How are they similar? 

[Diaste]

On 2/9/2020 at 8:50 AM, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture of the Church pre 70th week takes both Jews and Gentiles in Christ, men like Paul, Peter, John {who we see there in Rev. 4:1 and 7:9-17} are Raptured together just like you and I am, BEFORE the 70th week begins {Like it or not...SMILE}. Likewise, all men who come to Christ AFTER the Rapture must also do so by Faith Alone, be they Gentile or Jew. So the Martyrs who are killed are mostly Gentiles or the Remnant Church who missed the Rapture, get saved, then must lay down their lives. The Jews who are MOSTLY BLINDED {they see IN PART according to Rom. ch. 11} until the Rapture, are then called to Repent by the Two-witnesses, they thus repent and Flee Judea unto Petra where God protects them for 1260 days. So they come to Christ by FAITH ALONE, Jesus doesn't just show up and save them, why should he ? the 1/3 REPENT just like Zechariah 13:8-9 says, the 2/3 will perish. 

According to world organizations that track this sort of thing, there are 100,000 who lay down their lives every year for the name of Jesus and their testimony of Jesus. I guess they aren't good enough for a rapture. You tell me where their pretrib rapture is when they are already dead at the hands of the ruler of this world?

Do you realize the false premise of 70th week=wrath means God would then be killing His own martyrs?

"So they come to Christ by FAITH ALONE, Jesus doesn't just show up and save them, why should he " No? But he does for you. You come to Christ by faith alone, as do we all, but Jesus shows up to save you and your elitist ilk. Not sure why He would.

 

On 2/9/2020 at 8:50 AM, Revelation Man said:

So ALL Jews and Gentiles must come to Christ via FAITH ALONE, be it Abraham............Be it Christians during the Church Age..........Or be it Jews and Gentiles during the 70th week tribulation period. Thus ALL are the same, be they Jew or Greek. It has nothing do do with all being one body, there are Gentiles and Jews just like there are still Females and Males. 

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3

This is profound as we are told there is nothing that separates us from one another. There are no barriers to oneness. This is not just for the faithful; this is all people. Alive or dead we are the Lord's. All appear before the Lord as He sits on His throne. No matter where we are in faith, or lack of faith, we are all the Lord's. 

But you go ahead and deny these overarching spiritual truths. Your choice. 

[Revelation Man]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Revelation Man.

You need to become a "Genesis Man!" A yowm is "an evening and a morning!" The spin of the earth to the light God created!

No its not, if you want to get technical the root word for YOWM is "to be hot" and we went from 400 million years of darkness to Stars being created. The microwave mapping of the universe is real, it shows exactly how the universe was created, you guys are way behind the times man. So we see light from millions of light years away, and we know the constants of light travel, yet the Universe is 6000 years old. The earth wasn't even around at verse 1, if you listen you will see that, it says the earth was VOID and without FORM, do you even stop to think what those two words entail ? 

Void  noun

1. a completely empty space.

Form noun

1. the visible shape or configuration of something.

verb

1. bring together parts or combine to create (something).

So lets look at it now.......

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. {This means God COMMANDED it to go forth, not that it was complete}

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

So God SPEAKS CREATION, and the Heaven and Earth thus come into being BUT the earth was WITHOUT FORM {was not there yet} and VOID {was not there yet} all planets are formed around a ball of gasses or a nebulous that creates a star, our planet is no different, and God said let there be light in vs. 3. NOTICE: God moved on the face of the WATERS and only THEN did God say let there be light. We have illuminated light on our planet, but why ? The Outer space just outside our atmosphere is much darker, why ? Because light is but a beam, it has to be REFLECTED in order to illuminate things. Our Biosphere dome that holds in the Moisture allows out planet to be illuminated, likewise, even in the outer space, it would just be darkness without light being reflected in some manner. So God illuminated via water. Its a scientific fact, I just threw that in there to show God's word is so much more detailed than we ever really thought, if we look for those facts it science will prove God because God created all things and all Science is is a journey to the facts.

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The truth is that the Creation Week was indeed a six-day period of creation and a seventh day of rest - a Shabbat ("Sabbath") - occurring from Friday evening sundown to Saturday evening sundown.

Creation is a 6 YOWM PERIOD. I was asked this so I endeavored to study the facts to get the answers, mind you I started my journey knowing the universe is much older than 6000 years so that was never in question, I wanted to bridge the biblical account to the scientific facts.

Do you believe that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old according to science, or 6000 years old according to the Bible ?

I as a 30 year Christian try to think outside the box of normality. Is the universe 6000 years old? Is the universe 13.7 billion years old? Do these two questions clash or is there a translation barrier !! This is how I think. I try to bring both poles of thought towards each other starting with the facts. We know the universe has to be over 6000 years old because we see light from stars that are millions of light years away, so we would have to be naive to think the universe is 6000 years old.

Onward to what Genesis says about creation, does it really say the universe or earth is 6000 years old? I don’t think it does, I think its a mistranslation of a primitive language that had only around 4000 words at the time Genesis was written, whereas the English language has 500,000 words. So many of the Hebrew words were used in multiple ways. For instance the original meaning of the Hebrew word YOWM (Day) means “to be hot” and there are at least 50 other meanings listed in strong’s concordance’s lexicon of Hebrew words. A year, a month, a period of time, chronicles, evening and morning (Beginning and end), age, perpetually, long, some time, whole, X required season, continually etc. etc., well you get the point.

YOWM or “To be hot”, what would this mean and why was it used since God is supposed to have given Moses the first five books of the Torah. Well when the universe was spoken into existence by God, it took 400 million years for the first stars to form. So the first Day (to be hot) was the Evening (Darkness, 400 million years of darkness) and the Morning ( The stars started forming) and the first day was a “period of time” and in my opinion it lasted from 13.7 Billion BC until 4.5 Billion BC (9.2 Billion years) when the Sun & Earth were formed. So lets take a second and look at the Bible and the WMAP research and see if this matches.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now look below at the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) which launched in 2001 and won many awards, they mapped the whole universe out. Below as we see, you had Quantum Fluctuations which I contend is God, then you had Inflation, followed by Afterglow, followed by 400 MILLION YEARS of Darkness !! Just like the bible says in verse 2, and there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep !! Gods word is perfect, it is us who are confused. DARK AGES Mapped out by the WMAP, followed by what? The first stars forming at the 400 million year mark. Verse three says what? and God said “Let there be light” God is right again. We are looking at Creation from Gods POV, no man was there of course and with God he is not subject to time, he created time for us via this universe, but He is eternal and thus was never created. Remember the verse, a thousand years is like a day and a day like unto a thousand years unto God. In other words God lives in the past, present and future all at the same time.

 Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP)

So we had the Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 375,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce.

The first stars appear….Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the big bang. So, when the bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! The more we look for the answers, the more that science and the bible will converge, if both sides with differing viewpoints would only take their blinders off.

The second day (period of time) of course would be from the Earth & the Suns formation until the grasses and trees came forth on the Third day (period of time) then on the Fourth day it seems God Set the Seasons or placed the Moon in its perfect orbit where our seasons are not strange, but orderly, I know the moon and earth is supposed to have collided. Anyway, that set the seasons, times, years etc. etc. Mind you, all of these ideas are rudimentary observations. A theory of how the things God says in His Holy Word and Science can both be factual. They are not meant to imply everything went down just so and in like manner, the dates of course are guesstimates, I wasn’t there.

On the Fifth day God created the Sea animals/birds and what not, were the Dinos created here or with the land animals? The fifth day lasted 300 million to 400 million years or so. On the Sixth Day around 300–350 Million BC God created the Land Animals. During this period of time the Dinosaurs became extinct about 70 Million years ago. Then during this “TIME PERIOD” (6TH DAY) God decided to create man 6000 or so years ago. Some might protest that men have been around much longer, but I offer this up, where is the data? Men are record keepers and we don’t have proof of men going back further. Now as per “MEN” being observed by scientists to have been around X Number of years, I never said Animal like men weren’t around, I stated Human Beings were created 6000 years ago, when God placed His spirit in us and thus we are immortal in that our souls can not die. We were at that point in time “Created in Gods Image”. The other fossils and bones mean nothing, because Scientists have no way of testing for God imparting His spirit into mankind and creating “Human Beings” with powerful intellects.

On the Seventh Day God rested, which only means He ceased Creating the Heavens/Earth/Mankind/Animals. So when we see stars and galaxies created today, it was ordered forth 13.7 Billion years ago. So its not necessarily either or. We need to start looking at things with an open mind, be we an atheist or a Christian.

P.S. Just something to think about. Einstein’s theory of relativity is in the very first verse of the bible, relatively speaking…LOL.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning (TIME) God created the heaven (SPACE) and the earth (MATTER).

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

So, if you have a beef about the 6,000 years, you have a beef with GOD! Take it up with Him!

You don't KNOW that "the Universe is 13.7 billion years old!" That's a highly imaginative INTERPRETATION of the limited evidence that scientists have accumulated with a limited view of GOD and a HORRIBLY BIASED interpretation at that! People complain of prejudice today, but there is NO ONE so prejudiced as an Evolutionist! It's not a prejudice against blacks or women or any human being; it's a prejudice against GOD ALMIGHTY! And, they will have to stand before Him in judgment one day! DON'T be included in their number!

The Day-Age theory for support of Evolution DOESN'T WORK!

You are the one that has the beef, with FACTS. 

No one implied Evolution, you act as if God can't CREATE over 13 billion years but he can create over only 6 days. If the days{YOWMS} are vast time periods and God stopped creating after 6 YOWMS which lasted 13.7 billion years then God RESTED or STOPPED CREATING 6000 years ago. So please tell me why God can't CREATE over 13.7 billion years just like He did over what you perceive as 6 days ? You can't have a proper answer there no doubt because there is no proper answer except He can.........and did imho. 

I am actually in a thread with people who think the Universe is 6000 years old. Its hard to believe actually. What this does is make me very weary on anything that people put forth  if they believe in this. It is what it is.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Revelation Man