Rapture before the antichrist in Matthew 24

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, choir loft said:

Man, you are all over the place with misconceptions and misinterpretations.  You are using scripture to support religious slogans and buzz words - pure hokum.

To point out just one of the major difficulties you are having with interpretation, I need to rectify your definition of THE BEAST.    I refer the readers here to Revelation 13 where the beast and its primary horn, or leader is featured.

THE BEAST is not a man.    

That's something cooked up by Christian novelists and people who haven't read the Bible.   A prophetic beast always indicates a system, organization or nation.  The horn of the beast in Revelation 13 is a man, or more properly an office held by a man who in turn is an officer within the confines of a religious system.

Revelation makes it perfectly clear the Beast is a religious system.   Rev 13:1 says the Beast rises out of the sea.   What's the sea?  The Bible interprets itself in Revelation 17:15 “The waters you saw, where the prostitute was seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues."  The Beast is a religious system that arises out of a massive number of people.  Got it? 

The small horn that rises out of the beast is the Pope.   In Revelation 13:6 is stated that the Beast would open its mouth and utter blaspheme against God.   To be guilty of Blaspheme one must claim to be God.   The Roman Catholic church has officially stated that the Pope is God on earth.  Therefore the Catholic church commits blaspheme when it claims the Pope is God.  The very words of anti-Christ as predicted by the Bible two thousand years ago.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”

In verse 13:3 is stated that one of the heads of the beast would suffer a mortal wound, while later in verse 12 the mortal head wound is healed.

In 1798, the army of Napoleon Bonaparte arrested Pope Pius VI and put him in prison where he died two years later.  All the Catholic real estate in Rome was confiscated. <-- fatal wound

In 1929 the Lateran Treaty was commissioned by Italian dictator Benito Mussolini.  The treaty restored 110 acres of real estate in Rome as Vatican City and made it a sovereign city-state.  The Pope was restored to his religious office of leadership of all Roman Catholics worldwide (the sea of people).  <--- the fatal head wound of the anti-Christ was healed.  

There's a great deal more correction to be made to your post, but this is by way of fixing a little of it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." (A reference to the Jewish Temple, so not the Pope).

And your post ignores all the other events surrounding the end of the age and Jesus' return; none of which happened in 1929 to 1936. 

Sorry, but I reject all things Rome or RCC concerning eschatology except for the possibility the Pope and the Catholic Church could possibly be referred to in the imagery of the whore of Babylon. But I have my doubts about that.

 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Chapter 7 verses 11-16.....gives an exact time frame of all that was happening from the previous verses. The year, the month and the day.....on the SAME DAY, the fountains burst open......on the SAME DAY Noah and company entered the ark, and God closed them in. THEN the flood came upon the earth....

This is the concluding statement. The SAME DAY is when all was completed. The animals were loaded, the food was loaded, Noah and company boarded.

This truth cannot be swept under the rug. It must guide our understanding of the story. It's a strong conclusion, arranging the timeline.

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Having dealt with you recently, I don't think this is true at all. I presented undeniable facts of the scripture that prove that Noah was on the ark 7 days before the flood. It appears to me that your mind is already made up on things despite what the word says. You will never learn the truth if you reject the truth.

What is your point here? Why is it so important Noah was in the ark for 7 days prior? 

8 hours ago, The Light said:

You are 100% wrong. You are drawing an incorrect conclusion. Just because we can prove that the wrath of God does not take place in the 70th week of Daniel, that does not prove that there will not be a pretribulation rapture. In other words, just because the standard pretrib model is wrong by putting the wrath of God in the 70th week, that does not mean they are wrong about a pretribulation rapture.

I agree; but a lack of evidence against is not evidence for. When there is textual evidence of a clearly defined event answering all the important evidence gathering questions, then that event is the actual occurrence. Pretrib gathering lacks this evidence in toto. Not so the gathering in Matt 24, supported by 2 Thess 2, and described in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15. All this gives us the picture of the event including timing. 

8 hours ago, The Light said:

You are correct in understanding that the second coming is NOT the gathering. And yes, the standard pretrib model is absolutely incorrect in their assumption. Again, that does not mean that there will not be a pretribulation rapture. All it mean is that they are wrong about the second coming being the gathering. All things need to be examined. When we can prove that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood, and you reject, you have shown that you are guilty of the very thing that you are accusing pretribers for in your statement.

Apologies if I wasn't clear. The 2nd coming is the return of Jesus. The gathering is the collecting of the saints, the elect, both alive and dead at the time of the second coming. Both events linked forever in the same time/space moment. In truth I don't reject evidence. I reject any conclusion not found in the relevant text. In this case a pretrib gathering lacks fact where a post trib/prewrath gathering is in view according to the textual evidence; and it's explicit statements, not implied then inference drawn to fit a preconception.

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Sorry, we can prove that the wrath of God does not occur in the 70th week of Daniel. However, that does not prove there will not be a pretrib rapture.

There is no connection. It's the same as saying 'A' then 'B', therefore 'C'. Either 'A' or 'B' could be false or lack proof. Here the logic does not follow. A non event cannot be hard evidence for or against another event. It's the same as saying, "Our flight was canceled, but that doesn't mean a cow didn't jump over the moon." A lack of evidence proves nothing; it's just an opening to create fact to fit a pre-manufactured conclusion.

9 hours ago, The Light said:

So you have proven that the wrath of God is not in the 70th week of Daniel. That does not prove the fallacy of the pretrib rapture, it only proves that the standard pretrib model is wrong. Just as the word proves that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood, that does not prove a pretrib rapture. It's just one of the many pieces of the puzzle that lead to the truth.

You brought up evidence that doesn't exist, so then, what evidence does exist for the pretrib doctrine?

To clarify; wrath does occur sometime within the 70th week. It's just going to be after the A of D at some yet to be determined moment. Near to the end of the week perhaps. In the last year, maybe. But that's speculative.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

A wrong conclusion by you, the 70th week has nothing to do per se with God's Wrath, its really about Israel's repentance and judgment. God's Wrath only comes at the mid way point, so I guess its a portion of the 70th week, but God's Wrath is not what the 70th week is about per se.

You just aren't capable of seeing it. Its clearly there in the bible. Your mind is made up this it fogs your judgment on said events, its otherwise known as tunnel vision. I prove it in each post. Just like the REMNANT has to be the Gentile Church. It can't be denied.

Of course the remnant is the church. ALL the church. It's not a remnant of the church, it's a remnant of spiritual Israel. It's all the people born of the faith delivered to the Apostles and Paul who preached he good news to the world. Time to dump the fallacy of dispensationalism and move on from replacement theology. 

[choir loft]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." (A reference to the Jewish Temple, so not the Pope).

And your post ignores all the other events surrounding the end of the age and Jesus' return; none of which happened in 1929 to 1936. 

Sorry, but I reject all things Rome or RCC concerning eschatology except for the possibility the Pope and the Catholic Church could possibly be referred to in the imagery of the whore of Babylon. But I have my doubts about that.

 

DID YOU READ MY POST AT ALL, because your post reads more like a knee-jerk response than anything approaching thoughtful consideration?

AGAIN - your post was a mess.   I responded to only one issue because of lack of space - and it looks as though my own post was wasted on your refusal to accept wisdom.

AGAIN - when the Bible uses textual imagery of an animal, as in Revelation 13's beast, it is speaking to a system an organization or a nation.

Consult ANY scholarly work on the subject and you'll find most of them agree on this definition/interpretation.   

When the Bible speaks to a beast it is speaking to a system, organization or nation.   Look it up.  Learn something.

Your reference above to 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a reference to a man - not beast, not system, not organization and not a nation.

AGAIN, the "man" of lawLESSness arises out of a religious system.   Revelation 13 says so.  You say differently?  You are WRONG.

This man is described in Revelation as seeking to CHANGE times and dates (as when he changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, as when he changed most Jewish holidays and God-ordained observances to another day another name and changed names as in Christmas and Easter, which are now commercialized pagan holidays no longer even a shadow of religious significance).

The statements about the fatal wound to the head of the beast DID HAPPEN as I related. [*]  Did you look it up?  It's true.  Deal with it.

You speak of the age of Jesus' return?   Exactly what age would that be according to your expertise?   I have a question to ask of you, since you are hung up on ages.

WHICH AGE OF JESUS' RETURN ARE YOU REFERRING TO?

According to the Bible Jesus will come to earth THREE TIMES.

The Hebrew word "messiah" or more correctly "ha-mashiach" means 'the anointed one'.  Look it up - unless you're afraid to learn something.

Open your Bible and try to learn what sort of men were anointed.   There were three types: prophet, priest and king.

Jesus came the first time as prophet with healing and good news in His hand.

Jesus will come the second time as priest with judgment as his office. (tribulation era)

Jesus will come the third and final time to rule as king. (at the absolute end of human rule on this planet)

Jewish priests had a problem with Jesus' first appearance because they assumed He would come as king.  They wanted a warrior to liberate them from Roman occupation - on the order of Judah Maccabee.  Instead they got a prophet on the order of Ezekiel.  They, like Protestants today, couldn't see the difference because of their lack of orderly scholarship.   They, like many Protestants today, FIRST formulate a doctrine and then use scripture to shore up their weak argument - INSTEAD OF - digging through the Bible to glean truth as a result of what scripture says.  Instead, Christians follow their religious celebrities and lazily depend upon them to tell them what to think. 

Jews didn't see the vast gulf of time between the prophecies of arrival of prophet and king.  They didn't consider an advent of a priestly judge either because they thought they owned that office themselves.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited February 19, 2020 by George
Edited personal remarks that were unecessary to have a dialogue. Next time, I wont bother and Ill simply delete the post.

[Diaste]

53 minutes ago, choir loft said:

DID YOU READ MY POST AT ALL, because your post reads more like a knee-jerk response than anything approaching thoughtful consideration?

AGAIN - your post was a mess.   I responded to only one issue because of lack of space - and it looks as though my own post was wasted on your refusal to accept wisdom.

AGAIN - when the Bible uses textual imagery of an animal, as in Revelation 13's beast, it is speaking to a system an organization or a nation.

Consult ANY scholarly work on the subject and you'll find most of them agree on this definition/interpretation.   

When the Bible speaks to a beast it is speaking to a system, organization or nation.   Look it up.  Learn something.

Your reference above to 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is a reference to a man - not beast, not system, not organization and not a nation.

AGAIN, the "man" of lawLESSness arises out of a religious system.   Revelation 13 says so.  You say differently?  You are WRONG.

This man is described in Revelation as seeking to CHANGE times and dates (as when he changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, as when he changed most Jewish holidays and God-ordained observances to another day another name and changed names as in Christmas and Easter, which are now commercialized pagan holidays no longer even a shadow of religious significance).

The statements about the fatal wound to the head of the beast DID HAPPEN as I related. [*]  Did you look it up?  It's true.  Deal with it.

You speak of the age of Jesus' return?   Exactly what age would that be according to your expertise?   I have a question to ask of you, since you are hung up on ages.

WHICH AGE OF JESUS' RETURN ARE YOU REFERRING TO?

According to the Bible Jesus will come to earth THREE TIMES.

The Hebrew word "messiah" or more correctly "ha-mashiach" means 'the anointed one'.  Look it up - unless you're afraid to learn something.

Open your dusty Bible and try to learn what sort of men were anointed.   There were three types: prophet, priest and king.

Jesus came the first time as prophet with healing and good news in His hand.

Jesus will come the second time as priest with judgment as his office. (tribulation era)

Jesus will come the third and final time to rule as king. (at the absolute end of human rule on this planet)

Jewish priests had a problem with Jesus' first appearance because they assumed He would come as king.  They wanted a warrior to liberate them from Roman occupation - on the order of Judah Maccabee.  Instead they got a prophet on the order of Ezekiel.  They, like Protestants today, couldn't see the difference because of their lack of orderly scholarship.   They, like many Protestants today, FIRST formulate a doctrine and then use scripture to shore up their weak argument - INSTEAD OF - digging through the Bible to glean truth as a result of what scripture says.  Instead, Christians follow their religious celebrities and lazily depend upon them to tell them what to think.  

You will never learn anything of substance from the Bible when you go into it backwards.  You will be as guilty of pretentious religious dogma as the Hebrews and Catholics have been - and as Protestants are today.

Jews didn't see the vast gulf of time between the prophecies of arrival of prophet and king.  They didn't consider an advent of a priestly judge either because they thought they owned that office themselves. 

Christians don't see ANY of the picture at all because their heads are stuck up their masses in Catholic catechism and Protestant jingoism.  Both are anti-semitic bigots who hate anything to do with Jews, Jewish LAW or custom, which in many cases are ordained of God not the Pope. 

You dislike the Holy See?  Why?  Do you have good reasons other than what I've written or are you just a religious bigot? 

I'm sorry I called you out on your ignorance.  

I was under the impression you were a person who thoughtfully considered Biblical scholarship.  

I was wrong and I apologize.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[*] One correction to my post is that the Pope was arrested in 1797 and died two years later in 1799.  My bad.

What is the issue here? I'm asking from more of a personal perspective. Seems you have a problem with me. If so, just come out with it.

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, choir loft said:

Man, you are all over the place with misconceptions and misinterpretations.  You are using scripture to support religious slogans and buzz words - pure hokum.

To point out just one of the major difficulties you are having with interpretation, I need to rectify your definition of THE BEAST.    I refer the readers here to Revelation 13 where the beast and its primary horn, or leader is featured.

THE BEAST is not a man.    

That's something cooked up by Christian novelists and people who haven't read the Bible.   A prophetic beast always indicates a system, organization or nation.  The horn of the beast in Revelation 13 is a man, or more properly an office held by a man who in turn is an officer within the confines of a religious system.

Revelation makes it perfectly clear the Beast is a religious system.   Rev 13:1 says the Beast rises out of the sea.   What's the sea?  The Bible interprets itself in Revelation 17:15 “The waters you saw, where the prostitute was seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues."  The Beast is a religious system that arises out of a massive number of people.  Got it? 

The small horn that rises out of the beast is the Pope.   In Revelation 13:6 is stated that the Beast would open its mouth and utter blaspheme against God.   To be guilty of Blaspheme one must claim to be God.   The Roman Catholic church has officially stated that the Pope is God on earth.  Therefore the Catholic church commits blaspheme when it claims the Pope is God.  The very words of anti-Christ as predicted by the Bible two thousand years ago.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”

In verse 13:3 is stated that one of the heads of the beast would suffer a mortal wound, while later in verse 12 the mortal head wound is healed.

In 1798, the army of Napoleon Bonaparte arrested Pope Pius VI and put him in prison where he died two years later.  All the Catholic real estate in Rome was confiscated. <-- fatal wound

In 1929 the Lateran Treaty was commissioned by Italian dictator Benito Mussolini.  The treaty restored 110 acres of real estate in Rome as Vatican City and made it a sovereign city-state.  The Pope was restored to his religious office of leadership of all Roman Catholics worldwide (the sea of people).  <--- the fatal head wound of the anti-Christ was healed.  

There's a great deal more correction to be made to your post, but this is by way of fixing a little of it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Just noticed how off topic this is. I was addressing the timing of the gathering. Got any input there?

[The Light]

11 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Quote

Since there were no chapter breaks.....(but for the sake of finding which verses I'm referring to we'll use them)......the next verse states  that the Lord said to Noah...."Enter the ark, take with you animals and such....and after 7 more days I will send rain for 40 days/nights. (chapter 7: 1-5)

Hey Joe,

Exactly. Enter the ark and 7 more days I will send the flood. You got it.

Quote

 

chapter 7 verse 6....Noah was 600 yrs old when the flood of water came upon the earth.....THEN Noah and crew entered the ark.....and with them the animals.

verse 10....after 7 days, the water of flood came upon the earth 

So....Chapter 7:1 says for Noah to enter the ark, and in 7 days I will send rain.....then in Chapter 7:verse 6......Noah was 600 yrs old wen the flood came upon the earth, THEN Noah entered the ark because of the flood........ and carrying on to verse 10, after 7 days that the water of the flood came upon the earth.

 

Lol, what happened Joe, you went off the track. You have the flood coming and THEN Noah entering the ark. You need to rethink that. Noah did not enter the ark after the flood, he entered 7 days before.
 

Quote

 

verse 11......In the 600th year of Noah's life, in the 2nd month, on the 17th day......on the SAME DAY all the fountains of the great deep burst open.....the rain fell upon the earth for 40 days/nights.................... ON THE VERY SAME DAY, Noah and crew entered the ark, they and all the animals with them.......and the Lord closed it behind him. 

verse 17....THEN the flood came upon the earth for 4o days....

I have read this many many times. Chapter 7, verses 1 - 10 tells of the happenings around the ark...what was going on, etc. The narrative goes back and forth. 

Chapter 7 verses 11-16.....gives an exact time frame of all that was happening from the previous verses. The year, the month and the day.....on the SAME DAY, the fountains burst open......on the SAME DAY Noah and company entered the ark, and God closed them in. THEN the flood came upon the earth....

 

 It is not Noah entering the same day as the flood, it is Noah entering the ark the same day as ALL the animals. Which means that Noah did not load the animals over a period of seven days. Further we know that Noah did as God commanded. He was told to enter the ark in verse one. Do you think he waited 7 days before he loaded the animals or do you think that the word is correct and he did as God commanded.

Quote

This is the concluding statement. The SAME DAY is when all was completed. The animals were loaded, the food was loaded, Noah and company boarded.

Ok, but it was not the same day as the flood

Quote

I will have to agree with Diaste on this. I can see it no other way. 

You need to re-examine the facts. It's pretty cut and dried as the word tells you, Noah went in and it came to pass 7 days later that the flood came.

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by The Light

[JoeCanada]

9 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Hey Joe.   

I have to agree with Light.   Why?   

Read verse 14.  Where is the action, the verb?   A period ends a sentence.  We have a period but no action.   

Gen 7:14 KJV They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

The action is in the previous verse.   Now read the two verses together. 

 
Gen 7:13-14 KJV    In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

In shortened form it says, 

In the selfsame day entered Noah and Shem...they and every beast...

Now notice verses 10,11.

 

Gen 7:10-11 KJV    And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the SAME DAY were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

The Same Day as what? On the same day that "the waters of the flood were on the earth",  the "fountains... were broken up".  What day was that?   The day IT came to pass!   What is the it? IT is what happened on the SAME DAY... The flood & the fountains.   When did IT take place? IT took place Seven days after God told Noah to enter the ark and he did what he was told. 

   
Gen 7:1     And the LORD SAID unto NOAH, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Gen 7:5 KJV  AND NOAH DID according unto all that the LORD commanded him.

Gen 7:4 KJV    For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Gen 7:10 KJV    And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

And this is what we find in the O.D.,

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

 39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away

For a period after time that they entered the ark,  [until the flood came]  they were oblivious to what was coming. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

Hi Pup,

Hi  DP, 

This is the text from the Septuagint. Read it over a bunch of times.

7:1 And the Lord God said to Noe, Enter thou and all thy family into the ark, for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 And of the clean cattle take in to thee sevens, male and female, and of the unclean cattle pairs male and female. 3 And of clean flying creatures of the sky sevens, male and female, and of all unclean flying creatures pairs, male and female, to maintain seed on all the earth. 4

 4 For yet seven days having passed I bring rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will blot out every offspring which I have made from the face of all the earth. 5 And Noe did all things whatever the Lord God commanded him. 

( God tells Noah that in 7 days He will bring rain for 40 days/nights and destroy everything that He made)

 6 And Noe was six hundred years old when the flood of water was upon the earth. 7 And then went in Noe and his sons and his wife, and his sons’ wives with him into the ark, because of the water of the flood. 

( We see here that Noah and crew went into the ark BECAUSE of the water of the flood. This is the final boarding call! 

8 And of clean flying creatures and of unclean flying creatures, and of clean cattle and of unclean cattle, and of all things that creep upon the earth, 9 pairs went in to Noe into the ark, male and female, as God commanded Noe. 10 And it came to pass after the seven days that the water of the flood came upon the earth.

( NOTICE....... the animals went in to Noah into the ark . So yes, Noah entered the ark 7 days prior to the flood just as God commanded him.....to begin loading the animals and supplies. This was no small task, the ark being the size of about 3 football fields, 3 stories high. He would need all of 7 days to complete the task. )

 11 In the six hundredth year of the life of Noe, in the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, on this day all the fountains of the abyss were broken up, and the flood-gates of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. 13 On that very day entered Noe, Sem, Cham, Japheth, the sons of Noe, and the wife of Noe, and the three wives of his sons with him into the ark. 14 And all the wild beasts after their kind, and all cattle after their kind, and every reptile moving itself on the earth after its kind, and every flying bird after its kind, 15 went in to Noe into the ark, pairs, male and female of all flesh in which is the breath of life. 16 And they that entered went in male and female of all flesh, as God commanded Noe, and the Lord God shut the ark outside of him.

 This is the summary of the first 10 verses. 600th year, 2nd month, 27 day.......the floods came. ON THAT VERY DAY  (day 27) ENTERED NOAH. What day is it referring to? Is it not the same "DAY "as "ON THIS DAY all the fountains" speaking of the 27th day.  I think it is! ............. You can't just read a line or two and say "Look, God commanded that they enter and seven days later the floods came.....so they were in the ark for 7 days, waiting. Read the whole chapter and piece things together. It all fits. 

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

 39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away

For a period after time that they entered the ark,  [until the flood came]  they were oblivious to what was coming. 

It wasn't Noah and crew that were oblivious to what was coming. God told Noah in chapter 7 verse 4 that He was going to destroy all that He had made with a flood. 

It was the rest of the world that was oblivious to what was going to happen......."THEY were eating and drinking....and knew not"

[Alive]

Does it seem reasonable that it would take more than a single day to load all of those critters and get them settled into their respective places?