The First Four Trumpets

[Diaste]

On 3/20/2020 at 12:44 AM, not an echo said:

I guess I had took it for granted that it would be perceived by this time that I count myself as merely another lover of the Word of God, a brother in Christ that is trying to rightly divide the Word of Truth for himself.  My approach to Bible study has been long like David's, who said to God, "Open Thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of Thy law" (Psa. 119:18).  A sure direction for me (as a standard) is based upon this statement of Jesus to His disciples the night before He was crucified, "Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH:  for He shall not speak of Himself;  but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak:  AND HE WILL SHOW YOU THINGS TO COME" (Jn. 16:13).  Of course, I understand that God gifts some to be "teachers" (Eph. 4:11), and I have been helped a lot by Bible teachers, but I also teach as well.  And, we know that there are false teachers...  

When I said, "I have several thoughts that are reasonable and logical to me, I meant that in relation to my understanding of The Bible and my time spent IN IT, seeking to hear correctly what the voice of THE AUTHOR has to say TO ME.  To me, it don't matter a lick how reasonable and logical it may seem if it don't align with the Word of God!  I can say with you Diaste (if I am understanding you correctly), "It was discovered in my study there was so much more. A sure guide is allowing doctrine to be set by the author."  I'm taking it that by author, you me Author---God---and not the author of some book that you've read.

I appreciate more than you know the time and effort you put in to this conversation. I especially appreciate your willingness to engage on this particular point, one I have brought up many times over the years in this forum. I think this leads to a distinct and necessary harmony among the brethren, an essential oneness of the body that in my mind is missing once we discuss matters beyond the atonement of Christ and the covering of the blood of the Lamb and salvation by Him and Him alone.

I sincerely applaud your approach, mine was much the same. The Holy Spirit is the guide of all truth and He leads us on the path to find the truth, if we are open to hear. 

I used to read books on biblical topics. I will still listen to preachers from time to time. Just heard an hour long sermon by Mark Finley this week. Have you heard of him? I don't read books anymore but I keep my ears open to hear. One can find little nuggets that lead to the main vein if they're looking. Mostly books led me to the passages of the bible where various authors were getting their information. Once there I was able to hear much more truth than contained in any 1000 books written by 'scholars'. 

I literally trust no one when is comes to scriptural truth except the Author of the Bible. But that doesn't mean there is no truth in the words of others. One just has to listen, keep the good stuff and ignore the rest. I like to believe I do that. Maybe I do, maybe I don't.

So to the point I'm trying to get at:

You said, ""I have several thoughts that are reasonable and logical to me, I meant that in relation to my understanding of The Bible and my time spent IN IT, seeking to hear correctly what the voice of THE AUTHOR has to say TO ME." Ok. I understand. Let's say you heard correctly. You have found a reasonable and logical answer to the question in a personal quest for understanding. If you feel you reached the truth in your study, is that truth the same for everyone? For example, every believer would agree:

Jesus shed His blood to cover sin.

Jesus was raised from the dead.

Jesus ascended into heaven.

Jesus is the Lord.

Just a short list and there is more we would all agree on I'm sure. It seems to me if the short list contains universal truth, and many other truths are just as universal, all the truth in scripture should be universal as well. But it's not, is it? I think the evidence for that lies in the many 'denominations' in the Christian community; a nicer way of saying division. For example I have a friend who is a believer in Jesus that resists a clear command of the Lord because he looks at intent of others. I try to tell him that has no bearing on the word of the Lord but he seems convinced. May be that I'm wrong.

I'm not talking about Paul's teachings in 1 Cor and Romans and other letters concerning personal interactions where we should be careful of others walk in the Lord and be mindful of their level of maturity in the Spirit; I'm talking about something concrete, like the 'rapture' where there should be universal truth about timing. I think that should extend to most truth really. There should be agreement on all truth in the body of Christ. So it appears there is a roving standard, as you said, "reasonable and logical to me,", " what the voice of THE AUTHOR has to say TO ME" If everyone does that it's all personal truth, isn't it?

If there is only one guide in the person of the Holy Spirit is He changing the truth to fit each individual? Isn't it true the Holy Spirit should guide each individual to the Universal truth? There cannot be many interpretations to prophecy. Only one is the manifest truth. Yet we seem to not care. It seems if we think it's truth, then it is, concerning eschatology especially. There's a dire warning about that. 

Don't you think the reasonable logical truth should be just that for everyone? And why isn't it? It cannot be that the several schools of thought on the rapture are all factual even given the deep conviction of the adherent. What do we do about that?

On 3/20/2020 at 12:44 AM, not an echo said:

 It seems that a couple on the forum (and possibly you) have already began to regard me with contempt because my thoughts are so far removed from what is normally put forth.  I only ask that everyone consider whether my thinking is out of harmony with The Bible.  I have quickly found that my thinking is out of harmony with the present beliefs of some.  I understand this, and I try to not let that bother me overly much.  But, it does take a lot of time to try to explain things from another point of view.

I don't have contempt for anyone. I find certain behaviors contemptible and some personal biblical doctrine. So if some did find your thinking isn't harmonious with scripture, what would you do and what proof would be sufficient?

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It seems that it is being suspected that I have bought into someone else's view(s) or that I am one thing when I am putting forth that I am something else---or something---I am not sure.  It also seems that if someone has a view that no one has ever heard before, that may be thought of as being worse than a common view that is rejected   

We have heard a lot of views on this forum. I shouldn't be surprised if there's overlap.

 

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  I'm reminded of Daniel 12:4, "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, EVEN TO THE TIME OF THE END:  many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

Yeah...this only brings up many questions and is it's own discussion.

 

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Now, whereas what I have put forth may conflict with your and other's views, I submit that what I have put forth does not conflict with Scripture.  And, if it does not conflict with Scripture, it is as legitimate of a view as anything else being put forth---IMHO.  The test must be whether it will align with Scripture, not whether it will align with one's present (or embraced) interpretation of Scripture.

This isn't convincing as nearly every doctrine will say the same. There's always a stream of illogical and skewed rationalization forcing scripture to support the craziest notions. I'm not saying you're doing this, just that it happens all the time. The proof in is the pudding, as they say. Bring it on, the suspense is killing me! 

On 3/20/2020 at 12:44 AM, not an echo said:

About as concisely as I can, my uncommon view of "the timing of the gathering" is that it will happen when Christ opens the 6th Seal, and He can do that before I finish this sentence.  So, what about the prior seals?  I believe the first four are surely open (and the fifth very possibly), and that the four horsemen have been riding down through the corridors of Church Age history, since the death of the Apostle John (late first century), doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  Seems to me they have left quite a trail.  Revelation 7:9-17 is of the gathered Church, of which it is truthfully said, "These are they which came out of great tribulation (effected by the activity of the four horsemen during the Church Age, not Daniel's 70th Week), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (vs. 14).  The 7th Seal can be opened the same day as the 6th Seal, meaning, the Day of the Lord has begun.  The first four trumpets can be sounded this same day, all for the purpose of the world's stage being reset for Daniel's 70th Week.  This stage reset will be complete at Revelation 9:21, after which the "little book" is opened, which is the little book of Daniel---which is what chapter 10 is all about.  Daniel's 70th Week formally begins with the very next verse, Revelation 11:1, which should be considered in light of II Thessalonians 2:3-4, especially verse four.  That Daniel's 70th Week begins at this time is also supported by the two 3-1/2 year times frames, which are for the first time mentioned in Revelation 11:2-3.

I do believe there are several in this forum who hold to this or some variation. The problem is: Can they all be correct? This is what I mean about the standard. What makes your take more correct, or correct at all? This is where the Spirit should lead to truth, in prophecy, but here again we have another set of ideas. How can several interpretations of the same prophecy all claim they heard it from God and the Holy Ghost? 

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I have not found an instance where this view cannot be understood in a way that will harmonize with all of Scripture, though I know right well that it will not harmonize with the other popular views, or any other view that I am presently aware of.  To "see" my view involves thinking about some things from a different perspective.  Because it is different, or from a different perspective, does not mean that it is unscriptural.  As I am able to continue, I will be sharing more of this perspective.

But it cannot be 'your view'. It cannot be 'your perspective'. It can only be the view of the Most High God, our Lord Jesus and the guide to truth, the Holy Spirit. 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Diaste

[Dennis1209]

On 2/29/2020 at 12:34 PM, not an echo said:

With the United States having held such a prominent place in history and upon the earth, it has understandably been wondered, "Where is it in Bible prophecy?"  Well, I believe it is there, but not so easily seen.  Consider:  A few years ago, while reading about the first four trumpets and the one-third judgments of Revelation chapter eight, my mind went to something that I had always noticed as a kid.  I had always loved globes, and when I would consider the United States' side of the earth in comparison to the opposite side of the earth (for me at that time, China's side of the earth!), I would always note that geographically, what was on our side (our Western Hemisphere) was about 1/3 of the earth, while what was on the other side (the Eastern Hemisphere), was about 2/3's of the earth.  Now, with a sudden curiosity, I found myself looking at Wikepedia to see what the land areas of the seven continents were.  I made an interesting discovery.  If you give 1/2 of the land area of Antarctica to each hemisphere (I felt this was only fair), the land area of the hemisphere of which the United States is a part (the Americas) represents one-third of the earth to within less than one percentage point!

Needless to say, the wheels of my mind really began to turn now.  Consider further:  What if the nature of the destruction relating to the "third part" of the earth during the sounding of the first four trumpets is concentrated rather than cumulative?  I thought, "Well, either possibility would be equally as valid."  Only thing is, I had never heard a hint from anyone that this (a concentrated destruction) might be a possibility---and I still haven't.

Could it be that what John beheld at this time was the destruction of what is in our Western Hemisphere?  If so, John was pretty sharp on them fractions!  Also, an asteroid big enough to effect this would be prevented by the earth's mass from having the same effect on its opposite side.  And note, God gets to choose His asteroid, it's speed, it's angle of impact...evvverything.  Sooo, if so, what could possibly be God's reason for doing this???  Well, if what is on our side of the earth is at this time taken out of the picture, this would lend to the focus being brought to bear upon THE BIBLE LANDS---ONCE AGAIN---FOR THE TIME OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK.  Kinda like a STAGE RESET.  Pretty good prophetic reason.

In consideration of the earth-wide cataclysm that happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, the above shapes up (to me) to be a hemisphere-specific cataclysm (the impact of Wormwood would certainly be hemisphere-specific!), all for the purpose of resetting the world's stage so that for the 70th Week, things may become much like they were for the first 69 Weeks (when nothing was known of the Western Hemisphere).

One more thing for now---If all of the remaining population of the world at the time of Christ's Second Coming is in Israel's hemisphere (now that I've grown up, I'm thinking Israel's instead of China's!), this would take the mystery away from how "every eye" will be able to simultaneously behold Christ (in Person!) at His Second Coming.  Just as the sun is visible to everyone in our hemisphere when it is high in the sky over the United States, so will it be for THE SON when He returns high in the sky over the land of Israel at His Second Coming. Has anyone else out there ever seen or thought about this?

I've got to go for now...

I've written and speculated about the exact same thing a number of times here on Worthy. Is 1/3 of all the trees and green grass going to be destroyed sporadic and geographically concentrated or spread out? Your figures mirror mine, the northern hemisphere constitutes 27% of the earth's landmass [less any of Antarctica]. I had ruled out any massive nuclear exchange being capable of doing that; although extreme drought worse than what Australia experienced would make our side of the hemisphere a tinder box?

I've read secular science reports about what would happen if a massive and unprecedented CME or solar flare hit our atmosphere. I was surprised to learn the theory is; because of the upper atmosphere moisture, coldness of space, temperature of the liquid plasma [to complicated for me to re-describe], 100# blocks of ice would form and drop to earth [sound familiar?]. Secular scientific theory is this plasma could hit the surface of the earth as high as 6,000 degrees. That sure would explain a lot?

An asteroid is another possibility. We've had a couple of close calls and near misses in our generation and even recently if you recall. I find this interesting, and keep in mind; would a government announce a meteor or asteroid impact years in the future if the knew about it? I don't believe so because of the panic and lawlessness that would ensue. Has anyone noticed the interest in tracking, monitoring and developing a defensive system for preventive meteor impacts lately? Is there more to the development and implementation of these "space forces" that is being let on? I don't know?

Are you familiar with what I believe is an asteroid in Revelation named "Wormwood"? The only thing I'm going to mention is; completely check out this asteroid NASA named "Apophis", the meaning of the name given to it. Read between the lines about the arrival date and trajectory of this asteroid in 2029. Let me know what you think?

If we're as close to the tribulation as I suspect...

Luke 21:26 (KJV) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

 

[not an echo]

On 3/19/2020 at 8:03 AM, Diaste said:

If the wrath of God and the Lamb has come at the 6th seal and the wrath of Almighty God has come at the 7th trumpet it seems two scenarios are possible: Wrath begins twice or, the 6th seal is the herald and the 7th trump is His appearance and the 6th seal and 7th trump occur in conjunction. I think it's a stretch to say wrath begins twice.

Hello Diaste, 

Been meaning to get back to this thread.  My desire has been to respond to anything that might help someone to better understand how I am seeing things, all in the pursuit of us all being able to see things more clearly.  I certainly believe our Father would have His children to seek Him together on it.  However, it seems like I am continually having to play catch up, not only here but with other things.  I bet you know what I mean.  I know that some will.   We have had a pretty good dialogue, and I have hoped that maybe some of the questions others have posed to me may be answered somewhat in the course of our own discussions.  And vice-versa.

Concerning your above post, I do believe I understand where you are coming from, I just don't see it as being a problem that the coming of God's wrath is spoken of in relation to both the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet.  I certainly don't see it as a problem enough to justify efforts to merge the trumpets with the seals, especially the 7th Trumpet with the 6th Seal.  To me, however one tries to cut it, the seals are preventing the covers of the book from opening, and the book's contents are not open for view until the last seal is removed.  Whereas I have tried to see if I could see it as you do, for me, there are just too many obstructions.  And respectfully, I know that you must feel the same.

To me, the people's statement in Rev. 6:17, "For the great day of His wrath is come" is kinda like what we might have said on the day of our graduation---"Hey, the great day of our graduation is come!"  But, just because the day of our graduation had come, this did not mean that we had graduated yet.  When the great day of my graduation came, a lot of things happened between my getting up that morning and my throwing my cap in the air later that night.

Consider further:  On August 6, 1945, the day of the bombing had come.  Long planned, when the Enola Gay, a specially outfitted B-29 bomber took off, its bomb bay doors would be opening in about 6 hours...over Hiroshima, Japan.  Warning after warning after warning had been given to the Japanese, but to no avail.  Now, they were fixing to experience the wrath of the United States.  The great day of our wrath had come.  But, the actual detonation of the bomb did not happen until hours later.  And, even after this, this was not all.  Another bomb, and bigger, was dropped three days later.  As a result of this, Japan surrendered.  That's a lot more than can be said for those that will be left behind at the rapture, who, for the most part, will not repent, even in the face of God's escalating wrath.

You said, "I think it's a stretch to say wrath begins twice."  The way I see it, when the Day of the Lord begins, it will have begun.  It will not begin and stop, and then begin again.  The way I see it, the same day the 6th Seal is opened, the 7th Seal will also be opened, and the Day of the Lord will have begun.  And, the Day of the Lord will continue through the sounding of the trumpets and Daniel's 70th Week, which doesn't begin until Rev. 11 (very fittingly, after John sees the "little book" of DANIEL open/Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  And, it will continue through the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, which heralds a period that begins with the last half of Daniel's 70th Week and continues through Christ's Second Advent, the Battle of Armageddon, and Christ's Millennial Reign, to finally conclude with the Great White Throne Judgment (compare Rev. 11:18 with Rev. 20:11-15).

Got to go again Diaste (and all).  Whether you can agree, I hope you can maybe see a little clearer what I'm seeing.  And, whereas I may be seeing it wrong, I'm going to continue to look at it, very, very hard...  Isn't it so rewarding?  "I rejoice at Thy Word, as one that findeth great spoil" (Psa. 119:162)!

Edited January 30, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/20/2020 at 1:44 AM, not an echo said:

I have not found an instance where this view cannot be understood in a way that will harmonize with all of Scripture, though I know right well that it will not harmonize with the other popular views, or any other view that I am presently aware of.  To "see" my view involves thinking about some things from a different perspective.  Because it is different, or from a different perspective, does not mean that it is unscriptural.  As I am able to continue, I will be sharing more of this perspective.

 

On 3/20/2020 at 7:08 AM, Diaste said:

But it cannot be 'your view'. It cannot be 'your perspective'. It can only be the view of the Most High God, our Lord Jesus and the guide to truth, the Holy Spirit.

Hello again Diaste (and all)...back to trying to catch up some.  Hope everyone is doing well in the face of the coronavirus pandemic. 

When I have ever said "my view" I have only ever meant it in the sense of how I am seeing things as a result of my own efforts to better understand God's Word, under the direction of "our Lord Jesus and the guide to truth, the Holy Spirit."  Diaste, that's the way I would take you if you said "my view."  Similarly with "a different perspective."  I have often wished that my son could see things from my perspective!  And, as he grows older, he does more and more...I believe!    I know that as I grew older, I saw things more and more from my father's perspective.  Likewise with the things of my (our) Heavenly Father...

Edited December 11, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/20/2020 at 8:59 AM, Dennis1209 said:

I've written and speculated about the exact same thing a number of times here on Worthy. Is 1/3 of all the trees and green grass going to be destroyed sporadic and geographically concentrated or spread out? Your figures mirror mine, the northern hemisphere constitutes 27% of the earth's landmass [less any of Antarctica]. I had ruled out any massive nuclear exchange being capable of doing that; although extreme drought worse than what Australia experienced would make our side of the hemisphere a tinder box?

I've read secular science reports about what would happen if a massive and unprecedented CME or solar flare hit our atmosphere. I was surprised to learn the theory is; because of the upper atmosphere moisture, coldness of space, temperature of the liquid plasma [to complicated for me to re-describe], 100# blocks of ice would form and drop to earth [sound familiar?]. Secular scientific theory is this plasma could hit the surface of the earth as high as 6,000 degrees. That sure would explain a lot?

An asteroid is another possibility. We've had a couple of close calls and near misses in our generation and even recently if you recall. I find this interesting, and keep in mind; would a government announce a meteor or asteroid impact years in the future if the knew about it? I don't believe so because of the panic and lawlessness that would ensue. Has anyone noticed the interest in tracking, monitoring and developing a defensive system for preventive meteor impacts lately? Is there more to the development and implementation of these "space forces" that is being let on? I don't know?

Hello Dennis1209,

Certainly haven't meant to ignore you.  I've wondered some of the same things.  All very interesting, huh?!  The way I see it, the possibility of the "third part" being a concentrated destruction is just as legit as the possibility of it being spread out, or cumulative.  Till my thread, I had just never seen anyone interpret Revelation 8 in light of this possibility.  And, when I discovered that the area of the geography of what is in our hemisphere accounts for exactly 1/3 of what is on the face of the earth, my interest really spiked.  Even till this day, I am not aware of anyone that has picked up on the preciseness of this fact (believer or atheist).  That the land area of what is in our Western Hemisphere equals 1/3 of the land area of the earth to within less than one percentage point is pretty exact.  Consider:  If what John saw was a concentrated destruction of the "third part,"  it certainly concerns us what this "third part" was.  And to me, because what is in our hemisphere was not a part of the setting (or stage) of the first 69 weeks of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy, it should not surprise us that it will not be a part of the last, or 70th Week.  See what I mean?  And, similarly, this is an interesting thought concerning Christ's Church, of which I am most grateful to be a part.  Couple all of this with what John said about "every eye" (Rev. 1:7) seeing Christ at His Second Advent, and I'm thinking, yeah, this makes for a very interesting (and legit) (and Biblically supported) possibility.  For me, realizing the possibility that the only remaining population upon the face of the earth at that time will be in the hemisphere of which Israel is a part suddenly reduced this mystery to a no-brainer.

On 3/20/2020 at 8:59 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Are you familiar with what I believe is an asteroid in Revelation named "Wormwood"? The only thing I'm going to mention is; completely check out this asteroid NASA named "Apophis", the meaning of the name given to it. Read between the lines about the arrival date and trajectory of this asteroid in 2029. Let me know what you think?

Yes Dennis, it seems like before I even read my Bible through for the first time (37 years ago), I had heard concerning "Wormwood" at church.  As I see it, it will indeed be an asteroid, and I am thinking a very big one, as John said "a great star" (Rev. 8:10).  And, whatever may be seen by others concerning what happens with the sounding of trumpets #1, #2, and #4, an asteroid hit is hemisphere (or one side of the earth) specific!  Not saying ours...just saying...

I haven't got to look into "Apophis" yet, but I aim to.  Thanks for the info!  I have often wondered what all is heading our way that the astronomers have not picked up on.  I certainly believe this---Wormwood has an appointment with the earth...

Edited January 30, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

Hello again Diaste (and all)...back to trying to catch up some.  Hope everyone is doing well in the face of the coronavirus pandemic. 

When I have ever said "my view" I have only ever meant it in the sense of how I am seeing things as a result of my own efforts to better understand God's Word, under the direction of "our Lord Jesus and the guide to truth, the Holy Spirit."  Diaste, that's the way I would take you if you said "my view."  Similarly with "a different perspective."  I have often wished that my son could see things from my perspective!  And, as he grows older, he does more and more...I believe!  I know that as I grew older, I saw things more and more from my father's perspective.  Likewise with the things of my (our) Heavenly Father...

You say it all the time. It's a possessive pronoun. The 'view' belongs to you. I am under constraints to accept the language as presented and under no obligation to form a database of other's usage of terms and private definitions. 

Be more precise. If it's God's word, say so. That way I, and others, can tell the difference. This was my point in earlier posts; By what standard?

I'm all for hearing your thoughts but when you say

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

To "see" my view involves thinking about some things from a different perspective

just what am I supposed to think? Immediately I thought, "not an echo has a view that involves a fresh perspective." And you wanted me to think, "not an echo has God's view from a different perspective."

Sorry, no can do.

It's a real problem as so many think quite highly of 'their' view. And so many differences; and each person convinced they are right. I'm of the mind God meant what He said and said what He meant and that is the exemplar and acme of the truth.

The many 'views' cannot all be right or accurate or truth. Only one truth; Jesus Christ. If another's truth aligns with the Truth then I'm all in. If not, it's just another personal interpretation.

[not an echo]

On 3/29/2020 at 5:46 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/28/2020 at 9:54 AM, not an echo said:

 

Hello again Diaste (and all)...back to trying to catch up some.  Hope everyone is doing well in the face of the coronavirus pandemic. 

When I have ever said "my view" I have only ever meant it in the sense of how I am seeing things as a result of my own efforts to better understand God's Word, under the direction of "our Lord Jesus and the guide to truth, the Holy Spirit."  Diaste, that's the way I would take you if you said "my view."  Similarly with "a different perspective."  I have often wished that my son could see things from my perspective!  And, as he grows older, he does more and more...I believe!  I know that as I grew older, I saw things more and more from my father's perspective.  Likewise with the things of my (our) Heavenly Father...

You say it all the time. It's a possessive pronoun. The 'view' belongs to you. I am under constraints to accept the language as presented and under no obligation to form a database of other's usage of terms and private definitions. 

Be more precise. If it's God's word, say so. That way I, and others, can tell the difference. This was my point in earlier posts; By what standard?

I'm all for hearing your thoughts but when you say

Well, I think I am picking up on what you are getting at Diaste.  At first, I was feeling like I had entered the Twilight Zone with all this negativism I have encountered over my saying "my view" and other things that I am given to saying.  It has seemed like nit-picking.  I even thought that perhaps there had been a big controversy on the forum about saying things like that, something that had I known, I might understand.  If it has been, if you can remember the thread, let me know.  At least then, I won't be so blindsided!

I hope it does not seem over redundant that I once again express why I say some things like I do.  When it comes to Bible study, and especially prophecy, I don't know how many times that I have caught a word, or been drawn to a word, (or a phrase or a verse or a passage!) that I hadn't really noted before, even after having read it many, many times.  And, there are many, many words (and phrases and verses and passages!) in the Bible.  There have been times when even a word might change my perspective some, which in turn would affect my view (oops).  If similar happens to everyone else, it's easy to see why there are so many differing views or thoughts. 

I love examples.  Oft times I think of them as parables!  You know, Jesus never has quit speaking in parables!  Remember the total solar eclipse of August 21, 2017.  Naw, I didn't remember the year, much less the date!  I just happen to be wearing a souvenir tee of the event, as a night shirt.  Annnyway, crowds came to my neck of the woods to see the eclipse.  They got the word that if they came to the area of the U.S.A. where I hail from, they would get to have the best view.  Now, people throughout the U.S.A. got to see the sun that day, but they didn't all get the same view.  And, there were some criteria involved in getting the best view.  Hey, where I was---from my perspective---from my point of view---it got dark for almost five minutes, the air chilled, and a rooster crowed!!!  It was something!       

My experience has been that it is much the same with Bible study.  With that eclipse, there was a fine line (relatively speaking) across the U.S.A. where that "seeing" the total eclipse was possible.  Either side of that line, it was not possible---not the best view.  In God's providence, my home was on that line.  I was living on that line.  I may never be again, but I was that day.  Diaste, I believe I remember you saying something about you seeing things differently today than you used to.  Did it have anything to do with a change of perspective?  Did it have anything to do with where (or how) you were living.  Has a change in perspective, or something that God has spoken to your heart, ever affected your view.  Do you have a view?  

I have sometimes failed here, but I try to avoid criticizing another person's view in a critical way.  I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they are endeavoring to see the best they can from where they are, all the while realizing that some aren't even close to where they need to be.  I've been there, too.  I know it has took a lot for me to see what I see.  Kinda like looking at something through a telescope (which I also did during the eclipse!) and trying to adjust the knob so that the focus is really sharp.  Concerning hearing God's voice, I'm constantly working on my tuner...but that's another parable.   

Finally, Diaste, I DO KNOW that I have heard God's voice on some things.  If I am understanding you correctly, it is preferred on the boards for those who believe something to be the truth, to express it as such.  I'm thinking, like an attorney making a case and then letting the jury decide.  If what I have expressed here and prior will suffice for a forum statement that I humbly realize that I may be wrong, then I'm fine with that---and you can even be my witness!  I'm ready to go forward with what God has spoke to my heart---and to express it accordingly.  Though we may disagree some, if we keep the right spirit, Christ, by His Holy Spirit, will reward our efforts.

Revelation Man, if you happen to read the above, I thought of you too, while I was responding to Diaste.  Got to go.  The Spirit of Christ just called my attention to Ephesians 4:11-16.  Thank You Lord...

[Michael37]

On 3/7/2020 at 11:57 PM, Diaste said:

First, the bible never talks about the solar system as presented by modern academia. There is an amazing story presented as truth by certain scientific disciplines, but which disciplines fail to prove major points of their hypothesis; gravity and measuring the spin of the earth. Even Einstein said the spin cannot be measured. If it cannot be observed it cannot be added to the knowledge base. Gravity cannot be proven. This is a major omission when the planetary system is discussed.

Hi Diaste,

I've skimmed and speed read through this whole thread and don't have much to contribute at this stage except to draw your attention to Gravitational Waves and recent improvements to what is known of them. I'm not sure what part of Revelation or Scripture this Wkpd quote is germaine to but I have to wonder at your comment that gravity cannot be proven. Really?

In 2017, the Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded to Rainer Weiss, Kip Thorne and Barry Barish for their role in the direct detection of gravitational waves.^[16][17][18]

[Diaste]

9 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Diaste,

I've skimmed and speed read through this whole thread and don't have much to contribute at this stage except to draw your attention to Gravitational Waves and recent improvements to what is known of them. I'm not sure what part of Revelation or Scripture this Wkpd quote is germaine to but I have to wonder at your comment that gravity cannot be proven. Really?

In 2017, the Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded to Rainer Weiss, Kip Thorne and Barry Barish for their role in the direct detection of gravitational waves.^[16][17][18]

So one can prove a force causes an apple to fall to the ground? And that the earth generates that force? And that force acts differently depending on mass? And it's strong enough to overcome centrifugal force from the spin of the earth? And that it's powerful enough to hold trillions of tons of water and land mass to the bottom of the globe and not crush less dense objects? That's all been proven? I know people say it's true.

And the experiment was able to only detect gravitational waves and no other outside forces could taint the experiment? This detector is 4km long and is picking up waves generated 1.3 billion light years away. That alone is cause for doubt. They are saying they found something based on 20 millisecond signal. It stretches the imagination.

When NASA had 36 days to film the spin of the earth in real time and didn't do it, it raises questions. That right there would have put an end to other theories about the earth. Now a NASA astronaut says we don't have the tech to get back to the moon. We lost it and can't get it back. I heard two people associated with NASA say we have not figured out how to get past the Van Allen belts; in this century. 

They should get their stories straight.

[Michael37]

10 minutes ago, Diaste said:

So one can prove a force causes an apple to fall to the ground?

I think what you are probably saying is that what causes gravity is not fully understood. We prove gravity exists by not being weightless.