A Title Suggestion for the Seven Sealed Book

[Diaste]

Just now, Last Daze said:

The events of the end time will segregate the believers from unbelievers and no one will be able to gainsay the truth.

Yes. What has always shocked me about your thought above is that they will know the truth and still deny His Lordship, still they will blaspheme; even refuse to repent and then gather to battle against Him.

It's incomprehensible.

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2020 at 3:43 AM, Diaste said:

When you see the A of D...

Then there shall be great tribulation...

Then the sign of the Son of man....

Then they will see Him coming on the clouds with power and great glory....

Then the angels gather the elect...

The only gathering that answers every question. There is no gathering mentioned before the A of D in any book in scripture.

Hello again Diaste, and all,

I've really been away longer than I would like, but things happen.

To me, one place there is a gathering mentioned before the A of D is found in II Thessalonians 2:1-3ff.  The notes in parenthesis are mine, for the purpose of clarifying how I interpret Paul's words:

  1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the rapture), and by our gathering together unto Him (during the rapture),

  2   That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day (strict sense/particular day) of Christ (His Second Coming!) is at hand.

  3   Let no man deceive you by any means:  for THAT DAY (again, strict sense) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (the A of D);

As I see it, all Paul was saying to the Thessalonians was that the particular day of Christ's Second Coming was not "at hand,"  as was being rumored.  The same thing would be true if such was being rumored today.  Before Christ returns to reign, the Antichrist will be revealed, and the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week will transpire.  According to Paul's words, we who are a part of the Church will not see the Antichrist revealed.  While he may be alive at this time, that is different than being revealed.  The Church will be gathered to Christ during the rapture, before any of this occurs.  It is upon this basis that Paul beseeches his readers to not be troubled!  Read the account again with these thoughts in mind.

Now, I know that the "pat answer" (of many) in response to my interpretation would be that the "Day of Christ" means the Day of the Lord.  I have become quite wary of statements, suggestions, and other translations that would have "the Day of Christ is at hand" to read something like the Day of the Lord is present, or already come."  The word "Christ" in the King James Version is not a mistranslation, but is correct according to the Textus Receptus manuscript from which it was translated.  And, according to the universally respected Greek Dictionary of Strong's Concordance, the meaning of the word from which "at hand" is translated could go either way.  Be careful about accepting it to be changed from the way that it is.  Just saying...

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2020 at 3:43 AM, Diaste said:

Then there shall be great tribulation...

Then the sign of the Son of man....

Then they will see Him coming on the clouds with power and great glory....

Then the angels gather the elect...

Just to make sure if I'm understanding you correctly, Diaste, are you seeing the sign of the Son of man and Christ's Second Advent as occurring the same day?

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2020 at 4:20 AM, Diaste said:

And honestly? The seals have opened? Do we really think war, economic control/collapse and death and hell have run rampant over the earth? 

What makes the last 2000 years different in this than the 2000 years before Jesus? Not one thing. There has always been war, famine and death. There is no increase in any of it and it's no worse or better.

In fact it may have been even more destructive in the time before Jesus came to earth considering population numbers. There were rulers over the entire world in the time before Christ. We don't have that now and have not in last 2000 years. 

Sure, you could say there's some hidden organization pulling the strings of world affairs and I would agree, but that isn't a king over the earth like Nebuchadnezzar, the Persian kings or Alexander. Even the great Muslim hordes and the Mongols did not rule over the whole earth. 

If nothing in world events differentiates this moment with bygone eras then we have not reached the level of fulfilled prophecy.

No Diaste, I don't believe these things have "run rampant" (meaning to go unchecked).  But, IMHO, that of which Jesus warned---the coming of deceivers and false Christs/1st Seal---wars and rumors of wars/2nd Seal---famines, pestilences, and earthquakes/3rd Seal---and the persecution and martyrdom of His followers/4th Seal---has characterized all of the Church Age.

And, yes Diaste, there is a difference, ONE BIG DIFFERENCE:  What happened "the 2000 years before Jesus" HAPPENED BEFORE JESUS.  It would have been easy for the followers of Christ to hope, or even suppose, that things would be different after Christ's resurrection, and especially after what happened on the Day of Pentecost---but it was not to be so.  Borrowing from a post I made in another thread, in hindsight, it is easy to see Jesus, in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, conveying that, to whatever extent the forces of evil had been active up to that time, they were going to continue to be so, and especially in some CHRISTIANITY-SPECIFIC ways.

Think about it---Things could have been such that none would even presume to regard themselves to be some kind of Messiah, or Christ, but many have since that time, and several have in our own generation, like Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, Father Divine, David Koresh, and others whose names I can't remember. 

Concerning wars, Christianity could have had such a far reaching impact that these would, in our generation, be considered something of the long distant past, but it's not quite that way, is it?

Also, modern man (with much pride) could have made such advances that things such as world hunger and pestilences are no longer a concern.  Or, there could have been a relaxing along all of the earth's fault lines to the point that earthquakes never happen any more.  Things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.

Christians could have become so very respected that none would even think in terms of persecuting, much less martyring them.  On the flip side, they could have faded from history like a little cult that never really got established. Again, things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.  Isn't that something?

Things could have turned out such that of Jesus Christ, history would bear out that He didn't know what He was talking about.  What do you think?  I think Jesus hit all His nails square on the head.  Shouldn't surprise us, He being The Divine Carpenter!

Early in what we now call the Church Age, our brothers and sisters in Christ might not have made all the connections, but now we have the perspective of retrospect.  As we say of hindsight, it is 20/20, and some 2000 years of hindsight has confirmed to my satisfaction that Jesus did indeed speak of things very relevant to the Church.  Think about it:  What He said for openers (e.g. Matt. 24:4-11) has fit every century of the Church Age, if not every decade, if not every year.  The more one becomes aware of what all is happening in this world, the more it seems that what He said fits every day!

Now Diaste, after the rapture, I certainly believe that there will be an escalation of things---in the same category of which Jesus spoke---and even to the point of running rampant---but this happens in connection with the sounding of the trumpets.  For example, during that time, deception will run rampant, even to the setting up of the kingdom of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:1-5ff).  Secondly, during that time we have an account of some kind of war, wherein one-third of the population will be killed (Rev. 9:15-18).  There has never been this kind of war.  Thirdly, the catastrophes (and resultant poverty) of that time will be on a scale that seems unimaginable (Rev. 8:6-13).  And fourthly, there will be no limit to the persecution and martyrdom that will take place during that time, for all who will not succumb to the rule of the Antichrist will be subject to death (Rev. 13:11-15ff).  From another angle, for those who can accept that the four horsemen have been riding since early in the Church Age, the tribulation they have already caused is just a precursor to what they and/or their cohorts will effect after the Church is gone.

As I have conveyed in another post (don't remember where , and time is getting away from me!), the way I see it, we have compelling evidence that the first four seals were opened early in the Church Age (as early as late first century), and represent not future judgments of God that pertain to Daniel's 70th Week (as so commonly interpreted), but present liberties that have been granted to Satan (he would have NONE otherwise!) to ply his craft during this age.  I can almost see Satan negotiating with God for these liberties.  I again submit that these seals reveal the spiritual realm activities of Satan---and his henchmen, the four horsemen---to bring about tribulation during the Church Age, or since the time of Christ.  As I see it, the four horsemen have been riding all this time and have left their trails down through the corridors of Church Age history, even unto our present day.

Time has surely gotten away from me again.  Got to go.  Hope all in this forum family are doing well in the face of the coronavirus pandemic.  The mention of this virus makes me think once again of something Jesus said...

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

20 hours ago, Diaste said:

All this 6th seal stuff is fascinating but there isn't any associated timing that proves when that will happen in relation to other events which lead to the conclusion the 6th seal is the beginning of the week.

Or the beginning of the last half. It's seems funny that the penultimate seal is the beginning.

One last thing before signing off for the night Diaste.  I'm not seeing the 6th Seal as marking "the beginning of the week" (Daniel's 70 Week), nor "the beginning of the last half."  NO!  Rather, I'm seeing the opening of the 7th Seal (and subsequent opening of the Seven Sealed Book) as marking the beginning of the era, or period, of the Day of the Lord, of which Daniel's 70th Week is a part.  Yet, I am seeing the 7th Seal as being opened later, the same day that the 6th Seal is opened, and there are no prohibitive time frames to prevent this view.  All of which means that I see the rapture as occurring just prior to the beginning of the Day of the Lord---like minutes or hours prior!  Moreover, this is in perfect harmony with Paul words in I Thessalonians 4:13-5:3ff.

[Michael37]

There's nothing to stop you writing a book titled "The Day Of The Lord", not an echo.

I could write a work titled "The Scroll That Only The Lamb Can Open", if I wanted to. 

John would have been familiar with such a scroll and the way it was sealed. In those days the seals dictated who had authorisation to open the scroll.

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello again Diaste, and all,

I've really been away longer than I would like, but things happen.

To me, one place there is a gathering mentioned before the A of D is found in II Thessalonians 2:1-3ff.  The notes in parenthesis are mine, for the purpose of clarifying how I interpret Paul's words:

  1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the rapture), and by our gathering together unto Him (during the rapture),

  2   That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day (strict sense/particular day) of Christ (His Second Coming!) is at hand.

  3   Let no man deceive you by any means:  for THAT DAY (again, strict sense) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (the A of D);

But where is the evidence for 'at the rapture'? That's an addition that does not appear. This is what always happens. If it's not there, just add it and then repeat it again and again. 

As you say, 'that day' is a particular one. Paul goes on to say, "...shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." So two things occur before the day, the rebellion and the revealing. No pretrib.

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

As I see it, all Paul was saying to the Thessalonians was that the particular day of Christ's Second Coming was not "at hand,"  as was being rumored.  The same thing would be true if such was being rumored today.  Before Christ returns to reign, the Antichrist will be revealed, and the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week will transpire.  According to Paul's words, we who are a part of the Church will not see the Antichrist revealed.  While he may be alive at this time, that is different than being revealed.  The Church will be gathered to Christ during the rapture, before any of this occurs.  It is upon this basis that Paul beseeches his readers to not be troubled!  Read the account again with these thoughts in mind.

This only works if one conflates the whole of the end of the age with wrath. That is incorrect. Wrath only occurs after the 5th seal, is imminent at the 6th seal and commences with the 7th trump. You see, if wrath did begin any earlier than the 5th seal God would be responsible for killing His own people. This is the whole premise of Pretrib, "...we are not appointed to wrath..." and according to pretrib doctrine the whole of the last week is wrath. But there is the 5th seal and there is no work around for that. 

So even though Paul says, "Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed"  you contend it will come before the revealing? 

You know, the only group in heaven taken from the earth and shown in heaven is the vast assembly that came out of great tribulation in Rev 7 and Rev 15. So where is this group of more than a billion taken pretrib? Not a single mention of being in heaven? A very large group that walked the earth in perfect righteousness all taken alive to heaven is not pictured in heaven? Strange.

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Now, I know that the "pat answer" (of many) in response to my interpretation would be that the "Day of Christ" means the Day of the Lord.  I have become quite wary of statements, suggestions, and other translations that would have "the Day of Christ is at hand" to read something like the Day of the Lord is present, or already come."  The word "Christ" in the King James Version is not a mistranslation, but is correct according to the Textus Receptus manuscript from which it was translated.  And, according to the universally respected Greek Dictionary of Strong's Concordance, the meaning of the word from which "at hand" is translated could go either way.  Be careful about accepting it to be changed from the way that it is.  Just saying...

"...is at hand..."; enistémi: to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present" It's not either way, what ever you meat by that, the day is either present or about to be. It's a pretty simple thing isn't it. Jesus is Christ, is the Lord, is the Lamb, etc. and in fact has many names. A Chevy is an Impala, is a car, and it's still an automobile. It's synonymous. But this is all pretrib has. The doctrine must breed confusion and rely on nuances and esoteric interpretations.

And ya still don't have any explicit timing for a pretrib 'rapture'. 

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

One last thing before signing off for the night Diaste.  I'm not seeing the 6th Seal as marking "the beginning of the week" (Daniel's 70 Week), nor "the beginning of the last half."  NO!  Rather, I'm seeing the opening of the 7th Seal (and subsequent opening of the Seven Sealed Book) as marking the beginning of the era, or period, of the Day of the Lord, of which Daniel's 70th Week is a part.  Yet, I am seeing the 7th Seal as being opened later, the same day that the 6th Seal is opened, and there are no prohibitive time frames to prevent this view.  All of which means that I see the rapture as occurring just prior to the beginning of the Day of the Lord---like minutes or hours prior!  Moreover, this is in perfect harmony with Paul words in I Thessalonians 4:13-5:3ff.

Only logic prevents this view. The 7th seal begins the era, but it opens later when the 6th opens? So earlier? Or is that later?  You sure about that? It kinda blows your chronological view out of the water.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

I get you believe what you say. But there isn't hard evidence for any of it. It's a story that is refuted right from the onset.

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

The disciples asked 'When' and 'What'. If 'when' can be loosely interpreted as two millennia then it's not much of a 'when' is it? You are saying then that every generation could have seen their time on earth as 'when'. But it's obvious the prophecy is unfulfilled so 'when' is not measured in millennia. 

Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." 'All these things' are that which is contained in the prophecy and follow the question, "when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

It's all going to happen in the sight of a single generation of mankind present on earth, not over some 60 generations.

[not an echo]

On 3/22/2020 at 3:16 AM, Michael37 said:

There's nothing to stop you writing a book titled "The Day Of The Lord", not an echo.

I could write a work titled "The Scroll That Only The Lamb Can Open", if I wanted to. 

John would have been familiar with such a scroll and the way it was sealed. In those days the seals dictated who had authorisation to open the scroll.

Hello Michael37,

Not sure what you are meaning, or getting at, by what you are saying.  All I am saying is that, in my study of Scripture, I have come to see everything within the covers of "The Scroll That Only The Lamb Can Open" as pertaining to the Day of the Lord---the entire internal contents of the scroll (book or scroll, whichever one prefers).  When I came to see this, as a result of my personal and prayerful seeking of the truth, I could not escape the thought that this book could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  For me, it was a thought that stemmed from how other books get their titles, only, this was something that came to me in my prayerful study of the subject.  And, for me, it has been a valuable interpretative thought, something that I was merely passing on to other brothers and sisters in Christ.  Haven't meant to cross any line.  I don't know whose initial suggestion it was that what we have come to call THE BIBLE, be called, THE BIBLE.  Sometimes I call it THE BIBLE, sometimes THE WORD OF GOD.  My initial suggestion that the "book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" (Rev. 5:1) could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD was merely for the purpose of its value as an interpretative thought.

For those that do not like my suggestion, I take no offence.  But, in my humble opinion, the "book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" will be found to be all about the Day of the Lord---every single page.  I submit that this will hold.  Now, the seals represent something else.  But, I'm thinking that this will probably be better left for another thread.

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo