A Title Suggestion for the Seven Sealed Book

[not an echo]

On 3/22/2020 at 4:36 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/21/2020 at 7:26 PM, not an echo said:

Hello again Diaste, and all,

I've really been away longer than I would like, but things happen.

To me, one place there is a gathering mentioned before the A of D is found in II Thessalonians 2:1-3ff.  The notes in parenthesis are mine, for the purpose of clarifying how I interpret Paul's words:

  1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the rapture), and by our gathering together unto Him (during the rapture),

  2   That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day (strict sense/particular day) of Christ (His Second Coming!) is at hand.

  3   Let no man deceive you by any means:  for THAT DAY (again, strict sense) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (the A of D);

But where is the evidence for 'at the rapture'? That's an addition that does not appear. This is what always happens. If it's not there, just add it and then repeat it again and again.

Hello Diaste, 

Well, I would normally be standing behind the pulpit at this time.  I suppose all the churches in Kentucky have dismissed today on account of the coronavirus pandemic.  Also supposing that this is the case for ya'll (the way we talk in my neck of the woods) out there in Wyoming.  Hope all is well.

ONE evidence for my clarifying note (at the rapture) in connection with "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is what Paul says in I Thessalonians 4:

  15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep.

  16  FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

  17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER (gathered "together unto Him" by the angels/II Thess. 2:1) with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR:  so shall we ever be with the Lord.

To me, we also have the circumstantial evidence of this in the "great multitude" (Rev. 7:9-17) that John beheld in Heaven, after the opening of the 6th Seal, BEFORE THE OPENING OF THE 7TH SEAL, which excludes the possibility (IMHO) that this concerns Christ's Second Coming (Rev. 19:11-16).  This is not to mention the things Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:29-31, with all it's converging points of reference to the 6th Seal (at least 10), again, ALL BEFORE THE OPENING OF THE 7TH SEAL.

Relating to Jesus words in Matthew 24:30, concerning "the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory," because of His words "with power and great glory," most at once interpret this to be of His Second Coming.  However, because of HIS choice of words and other evidences, I see His manifestation at this time as being A SIGN for those left behind in Israel's hemisphere, and especially for "all the tribes," of which 12,000 from each tribe will be sealed (Rev. 7:4-8!).  Also, whether this be the first or second phase of His return, whether it be the raptured Church, the 144,000 sealed Jews, many eyes, or every eye, the next time Jesus is seen by anyone (even if but a glimpse by those left behind at the rapture), He will be seen "WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY"!  

Hopefully will be back in a bit...

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/22/2020 at 4:36 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

As I see it, all Paul was saying to the Thessalonians was that the particular day of Christ's Second Coming was not "at hand,"  as was being rumored.  The same thing would be true if such was being rumored today.  Before Christ returns to reign, the Antichrist will be revealed, and the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week will transpire.  According to Paul's words, we who are a part of the Church will not see the Antichrist revealed.  While he may be alive at this time, that is different than being revealed.  The Church will be gathered to Christ during the rapture, before any of this occurs.  It is upon this basis that Paul beseeches his readers to not be troubled!  Read the account again with these thoughts in mind.

This only works if one conflates the whole of the end of the age with wrath. That is incorrect. Wrath only occurs after the 5th seal, is imminent at the 6th seal and commences with the 7th trump. You see, if wrath did begin any earlier than the 5th seal God would be responsible for killing His own people. This is the whole premise of Pretrib, "...we are not appointed to wrath..." and according to pretrib doctrine the whole of the last week is wrath. But there is the 5th seal and there is no work around for that. 

But Diaste, you are seeing (and equating) the opening of the first four seals with God's wrath---I am not.  I'm seeing (and equating) the opening of the first four seals with what Jesus warned His followers of in the first section of His Olivet Discourse.  And, whereas many see a connection, not many, if any, are seeing the connection that I see, that what Jesus here warned of has been the result of the spiritual realm activity of Satan throughout the post-apostolic history of the world (i.e., what has come to be called the Church Age).

And, though the Lamb (Christ) has been given the charge of the opening of the seals, He is not the cause of what the four horsemen have set forth to do.  As I have now conveyed in at least a couple of posts, I see the activity of the four horsemen as representing the liberties that Satan has been given to continue the plying of his craft into the Church Age (or Christian era).  If God had not granted to Satan certain liberties, he would HAVE NONE.  Satan would not be able to squirm if Almighty God had not given unto him some liberties.  It has been by such liberties that Satan was able to tempt Eve, to cause Job such tribulation, and to engineer tribulation in the lives of all of God's children (and the world) throughout all of world history.  However, his liberties will be kept in complete check when he is bound for the 1000 years of Christ's Reign.  But, after this, he "shall be loosed out of his prison" (Rev. 20:7) and given certain liberties one last time for "a little season" (Rev. 20:3), after which he will be cast into "the lake of fire and brimstone" (Rev. 20:10).  At this time, rather than PARADISE LOST, as the case was for Adam and Eve, it will be  LIBERTIES---FOREVER---LOST for Satan and his imps!

On "according to pretrib doctrine the whole of the last week is wrath",  I am seeing the period, or era, of God's wrath as beginning with the Day of the Lord, then this escalating with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, which commences the last 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week.  It is of this time that Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  As I see it, while the Church will not be subjected to the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week, is there any evidence that it will not be subjected to great tribulation?  To the contrary, the early Church was warned to expect such (e.g., Acts 14:21-22 and I Pet. 4:12-13), and did, and the evidence of history is that such has been the case from then until now.  Consider:  How much more severe would the tribulation have to be in the days that Christians were fed to lions or burned at the stake for such to be regarded as great tribulation?  In our country, the Church may not presently be subjected to such great tribulation (relatively speaking), but such is and has been the case with the Church from a worldwide perspective since the days of the apostles.

From a worldwide and historical perspective, could it be said of the Church when gathered together in glory, "These are they which came out of great tribulation"?  I believe so!  However, while Christ's Bride has experienced great tribulation, She will not experience any of Daniel's 70th Week.

Whether you are able to agree with me Diaste, I hope you are able to see more clearly where I am coming from.  

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/22/2020 at 2:23 PM, not an echo said:

It is Diaste that said (to not an echo), "But there is the 5th seal and there is no work around for that." 

Perhaps not by your present understanding.  This is mine:  With the opening of the 5th Seal, John sees the souls of those who have been martyred and hears a statement made to them concerning more that are to be martyred at some future time (Rev. 6:9-11).  Immediately noteworthy is how what John here sees relates to the previous seal.  As I see it, the 4th Seal reveals Satan's Christian era scheme to martyr Christians, but with a specified limit (a geographical limit).  The 5th Seal reinforces this and that the seals are something other than judgments of God upon the wicked.  History testifies to the martyrdom that has occurred since the day of the apostles, and with the nature of martyrdom and its attending persecution, it is certainly not difficult to imagine such a longing for justice.

But, there is also a clue here as to when this cry for justice will occur.  The wording of the martyr's question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood" reflects that a significant period of time has transpired leading up to the opening of this seal, time that can certainly be accounted for now.  When the 5th Seal is opened and the martyrs cry out, they are assured that it will be yet "a little season," and this because that more are to be killed "as they were."  As I see it, this all fits a 5th Seal opening closer to the time of the rapture, especially in light of the martyrdom that will occur during Daniel's 70th Week ("a little season"), which will begin thereafter.  This line of thinking supports the probability that as the rapture draws nearer (with the opening of the 6th Seal), so will the fulfillment of what John here sees, meaning this cry for justice may have already occurred.  In other words, the 5th Seal may already be open too---and for me, I'm inclined to believe that it is.

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Michael37,

Not sure what you are meaning, or getting at, by what you are saying.  All I am saying is that, in my study of Scripture, I have come to see everything within the covers of "The Scroll That Only The Lamb Can Open" as pertaining to the Day of the Lord---the entire internal contents of the scroll (book or scroll, whichever one prefers).  When I came to see this, as a result of my personal and prayerful seeking of the truth, I could not escape the thought that this book could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  For me, it was a thought that stemmed from how other books get their titles, only, this was something that came to me in my prayerful study of the subject.  And, for me, it has been a valuable interpretative thought, something that I was merely passing on to other brothers and sisters in Christ.  Haven't meant to cross any line.  I don't know whose initial suggestion it was that what we have come to call THE BIBLE, be called, THE BIBLE.  Sometimes I call it THE BIBLE, sometimes THE WORD OF GOD.  My initial suggestion that the "book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" (Rev. 5:1) could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD was merely for the purpose of its value as an interpretative thought.

For those that do not like my suggestion, I take no offence.  But, in my humble opinion, the "book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" will be found to be all about the Day of the Lord---every single page.  I submit that this will hold.  Now, the seals represent something else.  But, I'm thinking that this will probably be better left for another thread.

Thanks for your reply, not an echo. Iron sharpens iron, so when we fellowship around God's Word it can and should lead to the improving of our understanding and the edification of ourselves and the body of Christ. If this is the case in your oikos, as it is in mine, you will have folk with different views, pet theories, and carefully chosen vocabularies that they like to use and make known, none of which should be taken to extremes but rather tested for soundness.  

I have heard many preachers major on the topic of their choice, some having published books and DVDs and become figureheads over time, and their material can be useful, but just because someone is prolific, persistant, and popular doesn't mean they are necessarily right, I hope you will agree. Likewise just because someone stands behind a pulpit or spends day and night studying Scripture, doesn't mean we should accept what they say as infallible, and I am pleased that you are not trying to dictate that all MUST fall in line with your thinking with regard to your suggestion that the seven sealed scroll which only the Lamb of God can open be titled "The Day Of The Lord" even though the opening of the scroll and loosing of the seals does reveal much about this Day.

In your studies have you noted that in the first five verses of Rev 5 the opening of the scroll is referred to first before the loosing of the seals, or the looking on it and reading of it, and that John wept much while there was none found worthy to open the scroll and loose the seals?  I think it is important to note such things.

Rev 5:1-5
(1)  And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
(2)  And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
(3)  And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
(4)  And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
(5)  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

[not an echo]

On 3/22/2020 at 4:26 PM, Michael37 said:

Thanks for your reply, not an echo. Iron sharpens iron, so when we fellowship around God's Word it can and should lead to the improving of our understanding and the edification of ourselves and the body of Christ. If this is the case in your oikos, as it is in mine, you will have folk with different views, pet theories, and carefully chosen vocabularies that they like to use and make known, none of which should be taken to extremes but rather tested for soundness.  

I have heard many preachers major on the topic of their choice, some having published books and DVDs and become figureheads over time, and their material can be useful, but just because someone is prolific, persistant, and popular doesn't mean they are necessarily right, I hope you will agree. Likewise just because someone stands behind a pulpit or spends day and night studying Scripture, doesn't mean we should accept what they say as infallible, and I am pleased that you are not trying to dictate that all MUST fall in line with your thinking with regard to your suggestion that the seven sealed scroll which only the Lamb of God can open be titled "The Day Of The Lord" even though the opening of the scroll and loosing of the seals does reveal much about this Day.

In your studies have you noted that in the first five verses of Rev 5 the opening of the scroll is referred to first before the loosing of the seals, or the looking on it and reading of it, and that John wept much while there was none found worthy to open the scroll and loose the seals?  I think it is important to note such things.

Rev 5:1-5
(1)  And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
(2)  And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
(3)  And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
(4)  And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
(5)  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Hello again Michael37, and I hope everything is going well with you and yours.

I certainly appreciate your gracious and mature reply. I have long been captivated by Paul's words concerning charity and have endeavored to remain always mindful of his words, especially when responding to others in the family of God.  Just the first part of his first sentence concerning charity is so important of a scale to weigh one's manner by, "Charity suffereth long, and is kind..." (I Cor. 13:5).

Of course, prophecy has many complexities and many very good people have for many, many years sought to interpret the words of prophecy correctly.  For me, when I have had hind sight, there have been things that no longer seem to be a thing of faith for me, but fact.  For example, when I think of what Jesus Christ did for me on the cross, and of His resurrection, and of His work in my life, etc., what I used to accept by faith, I have begun to embrace as fact.  I know that we walk by faith, not by sight.  But, I hope you understand where I'm coming from.  I feel like Paul in respect to Jesus Christ, "FOR I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day" (II Tim. 1:12)!  On the other hand, when it comes to prophecy that is yet to be fulfilled---and fore sight, if you will---I have not gotten to the place that I can say, "I KNOW."  For those times that I haven't been able to agree with someone, if it is any consolation, there have been times that I haven't been able to agree with myself, the way I used to see things.  To me, with prophecy, we must continually seek to grow in our understanding, and endeavor to hone our hearing and understanding to the voice of the Holy Spirit.  These days, I am having a harder and harder time hearing and understanding with my physical ears!  So, I have to allow that though the Holy Spirit will always speak perfectly, I may not always understand perfectly.  Now, along the way, our experience should be that we understand better and better.  So, where do I see myself presently?  Well, I certainly understand a lot of things better that when I first picked up The Bible!  Concerning The Revelation and other related prophecies, I have come to some understandings that I believe can make a contribution to us being able to understand more correctly.  (A note for Diaste---If you are reading this my brother, I have just had you in mind somewhat, as what I have here said includes some things that I thought I might say to you in response to one of your posts to me.)

Concerning Revelation 5, I have indeed noticed this before (your question concerning the book and its seals) and have contemplated whether there was something here to really focus upon further.  So far, I have had peace when applying to this passage one of the golden rules of interpretation, that being, "When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense."  And then, when I consider that the first thing that the Lamb (Christ) does with the book is to open one of its seals (Rev. 6:1), and that this pattern continues, the normal sense says to me that the book cannot be opened until the last seal is removed.  And further, the normal sense says to me that the seals represent those things leading up to what is contained within the book.  As I indicated in another post, when teaching on this subject, I use seven pieces of tape attached to a book (usually a hymnal) to represent the seals.  And, everyone always understands that the book is not meant to open until the last piece of tape, or last seal, is removed.

Finally, some of my thoughts concerning the thing of John weeping, "because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon" (Rev. 5:4).  In the margin of my Bible, some years ago, I wrote these words, "Not Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, or Daniel!"  And, I am thinking of adding something like this, "or any other man or woman with a human father!!!"  Can you imagine John's experience when he was told, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter"?  WHEW!!!  It seems to me that John received a very special invite to attend a very special event.  And, the event that was taking place had to do with a mysterious book God had, which was "sealed with seven seals" (Rev. 5:1), and of the presenting of this book to The Lamb to have the charge of.  Now, to me, ALL IN HEAVEN ALREADY KNEW WHO THE WORTHY ONE WAS (YES!!!), so, the question proclaimed by the angel, "Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?" IS PERHAPS THE MOST DIVINELY RHETORICAL QUESTION THAT HAS EVER BEEN, OR EVER WILL BE, ASKED!!! I'm thinking that, when John saw the Lamb, he must of thought, "What---in---the---world---was---I---thinking???"  What an experience that must of been for him.  Consider of what importance this book, sealed with seven seals, must be.  Moreover, what happened during the event of the presentation of this book was the prelude to shewing John "the things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1).  In accord with the opening three verses of The Revelation, and 1:19, and 6:1, I am fully persuaded that The Lamb opened at least the 1st Seal shortly thereafter, and I would submit that evidences support that He opened seals #2, #3 and #4 as well.  As I have said, I believe the activities of the four horsemen have been responsible for those things that Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse and that they have been riding down through the corridors of history, since the time of the apostles, doing just what they are insatiably bent on doing.  To me, they have left quite a trail and are even still kicking up dust.  But, more on them later...

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/22/2020 at 4:36 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/21/2020 at 7:26 PM, not an echo said:

Hello again Diaste, and all,

I've really been away longer than I would like, but things happen.

To me, one place there is a gathering mentioned before the A of D is found in II Thessalonians 2:1-3ff.  The notes in parenthesis are mine, for the purpose of clarifying how I interpret Paul's words:

  1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the rapture), and by our gathering together unto Him (during the rapture),

  2   That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day (strict sense/particular day) of Christ (His Second Coming!) is at hand.

  3   Let no man deceive you by any means:  for THAT DAY (again, strict sense) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (the A of D);

But where is the evidence for 'at the rapture'? That's an addition that does not appear. This is what always happens. If it's not there, just add it and then repeat it again and again. 

As you say, 'that day' is a particular one. Paul goes on to say, "...shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." So two things occur before the day, the rebellion and the revealing. No pretrib.

Quote

As I see it, all Paul was saying to the Thessalonians was that the particular day of Christ's Second Coming was not "at hand,"  as was being rumored.  The same thing would be true if such was being rumored today.  Before Christ returns to reign, the Antichrist will be revealed, and the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week will transpire.  According to Paul's words, we who are a part of the Church will not see the Antichrist revealed.  While he may be alive at this time, that is different than being revealed.  The Church will be gathered to Christ during the rapture, before any of this occurs.  It is upon this basis that Paul beseeches his readers to not be troubled!  Read the account again with these thoughts in mind.

This only works if one conflates the whole of the end of the age with wrath. That is incorrect. Wrath only occurs after the 5th seal, is imminent at the 6th seal and commences with the 7th trump. You see, if wrath did begin any earlier than the 5th seal God would be responsible for killing His own people. This is the whole premise of Pretrib, "...we are not appointed to wrath..." and according to pretrib doctrine the whole of the last week is wrath. But there is the 5th seal and there is no work around for that. 

So even though Paul says, "Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed"  you contend it will come before the revealing? 

You know, the only group in heaven taken from the earth and shown in heaven is the vast assembly that came out of great tribulation in Rev 7 and Rev 15. So where is this group of more than a billion taken pretrib? Not a single mention of being in heaven? A very large group that walked the earth in perfect righteousness all taken alive to heaven is not pictured in heaven? Strange.

Quote

Now, I know that the "pat answer" (of many) in response to my interpretation would be that the "Day of Christ" means the Day of the Lord.  I have become quite wary of statements, suggestions, and other translations that would have "the Day of Christ is at hand" to read something like the Day of the Lord is present, or already come."  The word "Christ" in the King James Version is not a mistranslation, but is correct according to the Textus Receptus manuscript from which it was translated.  And, according to the universally respected Greek Dictionary of Strong's Concordance, the meaning of the word from which "at hand" is translated could go either way.  Be careful about accepting it to be changed from the way that it is.  Just saying...

"...is at hand..."; enistémi: to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present" It's not either way, what ever you meat by that, the day is either present or about to be. It's a pretty simple thing isn't it. Jesus is Christ, is the Lord, is the Lamb, etc. and in fact has many names. A Chevy is an Impala, is a car, and it's still an automobile. It's synonymous. But this is all pretrib has. The doctrine must breed confusion and rely on nuances and esoteric interpretations.

And ya still don't have any explicit timing for a pretrib 'rapture'. 

Hello Diaste,

I'm trying to play catch up in the face of some tough time constraints.  Concerning your last response, ""...is at hand..."; enistémi: to place in, to be at hand, perf. part. to be present" It's not either way, what ever you meat by that, the day is either present or about to be",  don't you think that there is a little bit of difference between "present or about to be"?  And, in an effort to clarify a little, I am seeing the Day of Christ (II Thess. 2:2) as being the day of Christ's Second Advent, as shown in Revelation 19:11-16.  I see the rapture as happening back at the opening of the 6th Seal, at Christ's Sign Return (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 6:15-17).  So, according to Paul, the Day of Christ was not "at hand," or "about to be,"  for before Christ's Second Advent, the A of D will be revealed (II Thess. 2:3).  It is upon the basis of Christ's Sign Return and the rapture ("our gathering  together unto Him"/II Thess. 2:1/Matt. 24:30-31) that Paul was telling the Thessalonians not to be "shaken in mind, or be troubled."

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/22/2020 at 4:46 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/22/2020 at 2:00 AM, not an echo said:

One last thing before signing off for the night Diaste.  I'm not seeing the 6th Seal as marking "the beginning of the week" (Daniel's 70 Week), nor "the beginning of the last half."  NO!  Rather, I'm seeing the opening of the 7th Seal (and subsequent opening of the Seven Sealed Book) as marking the beginning of the era, or period, of the Day of the Lord, of which Daniel's 70th Week is a part.  Yet, I am seeing the 7th Seal as being opened later, the same day that the 6th Seal is opened, and there are no prohibitive time frames to prevent this view.  All of which means that I see the rapture as occurring just prior to the beginning of the Day of the Lord---like minutes or hours prior!  Moreover, this is in perfect harmony with Paul words in I Thessalonians 4:13-5:3ff.

Only logic prevents this view. The 7th seal begins the era, but it opens later when the 6th opens? So earlier? Or is that later?  You sure about that? It kinda blows your chronological view out of the water.

You are misreading me Diaste.  The 6th Seal is certainly opened before the 7th Seal!  I am just trying to convey that the 7th Seal can be opened later, THE SAME DAY as the 6th Seal, because there are no prohibitive time frames to prevent such a view.  So, the very basic order as I see it is this:

(A) The 6th Seal will be opened, "then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 6:16).  

(B) The 144,000 of "all the tribes" (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 7:4) shall be sealed, and the Church shall be gathered (Matt. 24:31/Rev. 7:9).

(C) The 7th Seal will be opened, and the Day of the Lord will have begun.

As I see it, ALL OF THIS WILL OCCUR THE SAME DAY.  As I said in the above referenced post, this is in perfect harmony with Paul's words in I Thessalonians 4:13-5:3ff.  The cry of those left behind that, "the Day of His Wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17) is so, and it will have come upon them as "a thief in the night" (I Thess. 5:2).

Please note also that according to the way I see it, the Day of the Lord is not Daniel's 70th Week, but it does include Daniel's 70th Week.  I don't see Daniel's 70th Week as actually beginning until Revelation 11:1 (compare II Thess. 2:4), just after the "little book" of Daniel is opened (Rev. 10). 

Concerning your statement, "It kinda blows your chronological view out of the water",  as I state in my thread concerning the chronological order of The Revelation, the first 10 chapters are in the strictest chronological order possible.  One things leads into another thing, which leads into another thing, and so forth through the first 10 chapters.  NO back and forth, NO overlap, NO repeating OF ANYTHING, just chronological information laid out as simply as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10.

Though you may not be able to agree, I do hope you are understanding me correctly.  Got to go...    

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/22/2020 at 4:36 AM, Diaste said:

You know, the only group in heaven taken from the earth and shown in heaven is the vast assembly that came out of great tribulation in Rev 7 and Rev 15. So where is this group of more than a billion taken pretrib? Not a single mention of being in heaven? A very large group that walked the earth in perfect righteousness all taken alive to heaven is not pictured in heaven? Strange.

Strange, if one only sees it as you are seeing it Diaste.  I see the vast assembly "that came out of great tribulation in Rev 7" as being the Church, which, from a worldwide and historical perspective, has indeed experienced great tribulation.  Even the early Church was warned to expect such (e.g., Acts 14:21-22 and I Pet. 4:12-13), and did.  As I have said, how much more severe would the tribulation have to be in the days that Christians were fed to lions or burned at the stake for such to be considered great tribulation?  Just because the Church in our United States has not been subjected to such great tribulation (relatively speaking), such is and has been the case for the Church from a worldwide and historical perspective since the days of the apostles.  The words great tribulation are from megas thlipsis.  Stephen used these same words, translated "great affliction,"  when he described what the land of Egypt and Canaan went through in the days that Joseph was governor in Egypt and his family came to him for corn (Acts 7:11ff)!  My point is, there is a major difference between going through great tribulation and going through Daniel's 70th Week.  As I see it, the great multitude that John saw in Revelation 7 is the Church, which has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through!

From another angle, let's suppose that the "great tribulation" of Rev. 7:14 is in reference to Daniel's 70th Week, and it may be.  Even this doesn't necessarily mean that the Church has gone through Daniel's 70th Week, as the Church will "escape" before the beginning of the Day of the Lord (I Thess. 5:1-4ff), a period which includes Daniel's 70th Week.  For example, the NIV reads, "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14).  What does it take to "come out of" something?  Of course, it could be said that you would have to be in something before you could come out of it.  But, you can also come out of something in the sense of having escaped it.  Let me illustrate with a narrative that I believe everyone in America can relate to:

For a moment, picture yourself sitting in the coffee shop on the ground floor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center on the morning of September 11, 2001.  You are sipping on your first cup of coffee for the day with some of your co-workers when all of a sudden there is this strange noise, and you feel a shaking sensation.  "What was that?" you exclaim!  Someone remarks that it might have been an earthquake.  There is a stir of curiosity.  In another second, an alarm goes off.  Next thing you know, someone is running by screaming something about an explosion happening in the top of the tower.  Near an exit, you rush outside where everyone is looking up, and you pick out something being said about a jet airliner crashing into the tower.  You keep backing up, looking up, completely awestruck that such a catastrophe is unfolding right before your very eyes.  Everything is in a complete frenzy, debris is falling all around, and there is a great plume of smoke bellowing into the sky.  Everyone is scrambling to get out of the building and from harm's way, and you end up one of the fortunate ones.  When the day is done, you end up being in the number of those who have come out of the great disaster in New York.  And, in what sense have you come out of it?  In the sense of having escaped it.  No one will deny you that!  Moreover, I venture any classroom or church in America would be interested in hearing your personal story.

All of the foregoing reflects thoughts that I have long had concerning the great multitude John saw after the 6th Seal was opened.  Whether the Church has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through (great tribulation/KJV), or, escaped it (the great tribulation/NIV), it is easy for me to see this as being the gathered Church in Heaven.  There are just too many prophetic points of convergence at the 6th Seal for me to see otherwise.  I hope you are "seeing" what I mean.

In regard to the assembly in "Rev 15",  these are those who have indeed experienced the tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week.  But, according to many evidences, whereas the great multitude of Revelation 7 will be a harvest, the assembly of Revelation 15 will be in the category of gleanings.  Not a "vast assembly" like the Church.

Got to go...

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

Strange, if one only sees it as you are seeing it Diaste.  I see the vast assembly that came out of great tribulation in Rev 7 as being the Church, which, from a worldwide and historical perspective, has indeed experienced great tribulation.  Even the early Church was warned to expect such (e.g., Acts 14:21-22 and I Pet. 4:12-13), and did.  As I have said, how much more severe would the tribulation have to be in the days that Christians were fed to lions or burned at the stake for such to be considered great tribulation?  Just because the Church in our United States has not been subjected to such great tribulation (relatively speaking), such is and has been the case for the Church from a worldwide and historical perspective since the days of the apostles.  The words great tribulation are from megas thlipsis.  Stephen used these same words, translated "great affliction,"  when he described what the land of Egypt and Canaan went through in the days that Joseph was governor in Egypt and his family came to him for corn (Acts 7:11ff)!  My point is, there is a major difference between going through great tribulation and going through Daniel's 70th Week.  As I see it, the great multitude that John saw in Rev 7 is the Church, which has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through!

From another angle, let's suppose that the "great tribulation" of Rev. 7:14 is in reference to Daniel's 70th Week, and it may be.  Even this doesn't necessarily mean that the Church has gone through Daniel's 70th Week, as the Church will "escape" before the beginning of the Day of the Lord (I Thess. 5:1-4ff), a period which includes Daniel's 70th Week.  For example, the NIV reads, "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14).  What does it take to "come out of" something?  Of course, it could be said that you would have to be in something before you could come out of it.  But, you can also come out of something in the sense of having escaped it.  Let me illustrate with a narrative that I believe everyone in America can relate to:

For a moment, picture yourself sitting in the coffee shop on the ground floor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center on the morning of September 11, 2001.  You are sipping on your first cup of coffee for the day with some of your co-workers when all of a sudden there is this strange noise, and you feel a shaking sensation.  "What was that?" you exclaim!  Someone remarks that it might have been an earthquake.  There is a stir of curiosity.  In another second, an alarm goes off.  Next thing you know, someone is running by screaming something about an explosion happening in the top of the tower.  Near an exit, you rush outside where everyone is looking up, and you pick out something being said about a jet airliner crashing into the tower.  You keep backing up, looking up, completely awestruck that such a catastrophe is unfolding right before your very eyes.  Everything is in a complete frenzy, debris is falling all around, and there is a great plume of smoke bellowing into the sky.  Everyone is scrambling to get out of the building and from harm's way, and you end up one of the fortunate ones.  When the day is done, you end up being in the number of those who have come out of the great disaster in New York.  And, in what sense have you come out of it?  In the sense of having escaped it.  No one will deny you that!  Moreover, I venture any classroom or church in America would be interested in hearing your personal story.

All of the foregoing reflects thoughts that I have long had concerning the great multitude John saw after the 6th Seal was opened.  Whether the Church has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through (great tribulation/KJV), or, escaped it (the great tribulation/NIV), it is easy for me to see this as being the gathered Church in Heaven.  There are just too many prophetic points of convergence at the 6th Seal for me to see otherwise.  I hope you are "seeing" what I mean.

In regard to the assembly in Rev 15, these are those who have indeed experienced the tribulation of Daniel's 7oth Week.  But, according to many evidences, whereas the great multitude of Rev 7 will be a harvest, the assembly of Rev 15 will be in the category of gleanings.  Not a "vast assembly" like the Church.

Got to go...

I understand.

Your story is missing the entire body of evidence from Matt 24. The main problem with 'great tribulation' as two millennia in duration is that time period is sandwiched between the A of D and the return of Jesus; and both those events occur in the sight of the population of the earth alive at the time. 

What is at issue isn't whether some people over time in certain parts of the world experienced great affliction or pressure, that has certainly been the case too many times to count; the issue is when this 'great tribulation' occurs. It not only must occur near the time of the 2nd coming but also in the sight of those who witnessed the A of D that is related to the end of the age. Also this 'great tribulation' must be,

21) "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." - Matt 24

Literally no other period of enormous pressure can be merged into Matt 24 as this one particular 'great tribulation' is different than any other.

Based on these two truths which are ignored by many the 2000 years since Jesus ascended does not qualify as the 'great tribulation' in the Gospels as related to the end of the age.

 

 

[Diaste]

On 3/22/2020 at 1:23 PM, not an echo said:

But Diaste, you are seeing (and equating) the opening of the first four seals with God's wrath---I am not.  

Actually I am not. I'm impressed that you do not either. I'm sure I said in earlier posts that the wrath of the One who sits on the throne and the Lamb is heralded at the 6th seal and commences with the 7th trump. That was my argument for the concurrent/successive nature of the seals/trumps and against the strict chronology of seals/trumps/vials.

On 3/22/2020 at 1:23 PM, not an echo said:

And, though the Lamb (Christ) has been given the charge of the opening of the seals, He is not the cause of what the four horsemen have set forth to do.  As I have now conveyed in at least a couple of posts, I see the activity of the four horsemen as representing the liberties that Satan has been given to continue the plying of his craft into the Church Age.  If God had not granted to Satan certain liberties, he would HAVE NONE.  Satan would not be able to squirm if Almighty God had not given unto him some liberties.  It has been by such liberties that Satan was able to tempt Eve, to cause Job such tribulation, and to engineer tribulation in the lives of all of God's children (and the world) throughout all of world history.  However, his liberties will be kept in complete check when he is bound for the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, but after this, he "shall be loosed out of his prison" (Rev. 20:7) and given certain liberties one last time for "a little season" (Rev. 20:3), after which he will be cast into "the lake of fire and brimstone" (Rev. 20:10).  At this time, rather than PARADISE LOST, as the case was for Adam and Eve, it will be  LIBERTIES---FOREVER---LOST for Satan and his imps!

Dispensationalism is monkey wrench in the great mechanism of truth. You really should examine this in depth.

On 3/22/2020 at 1:23 PM, not an echo said:

On "according to pretrib doctrine the whole of the last week is wrath,"  I am seeing the period, or era, of God's wrath as beginning with the Day of the Lord, then this escalating with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, which commences the last 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week.  It is of this time that Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  As I see it, while the Church will not be subjected to the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week, is there any evidence that it will not be subjected to great tribulation?  To the contrary, the early Church was warned to expect such (e.g., Acts 14:21-22 and I Pet. 4:12-13), and did, and the evidence of history is that such has been the case throughout the Church Age.  Consider:  How much more severe would the tribulation have to be in the days that Christians were fed to lions or burned at the stake for such to be regarded as great tribulation?  In our country, the Church may not presently be subjected to such great tribulation (relatively speaking), but such is and has been the case with the Church from a worldwide perspective since the days of the apostles.

See the above.

On 3/22/2020 at 1:23 PM, not an echo said:

From a worldwide and historical perspective, could it be said of God's children of the Church Age when gathered together in glory, "These are they which came out of great tribulation"?  I believe so!  However, while Christ's Bride has experienced great tribulation, She will not experience any of Daniel's 70th Week.

Whether you are able to agree with me Diaste, I hope you are able to see more clearly where I am coming from.  

Yes, "It could be said..." A lot of things could be said. That's the definition of speculation.