REVELATION IS NOT ABOUT THE CHURCH

[douge]

On 6/19/2020 at 5:21 PM, Josheb said:

So.... what evidence have you the bond-servants of Christ are the remnant of Israel and is that evidence couched in well-rendered scripture first of is it first rendered through some unidentified eschatology? 

It is implicit in parables.

Look at Luke 19:12-28  Luke speaks of servants in verse in Luke 19:13 as being profitable to enter the kingdom

[douge]

On 6/19/2020 at 5:49 PM, Roar said:

Dear friend Paul was WARNING Christian gentiles NOT to take their place in  salvation in the Church lightly and look down upon the Jews!

 

The Gentiles could be broken off by unbelief...we are secure in Christ so this could not apply to us in the body

[douge]

On 3/13/2020 at 5:38 PM, Michael37 said:

I know that's what you think, douge, but you are proved wrong by the Word of God.

Believing Gentiles have been brought near by the blood of Christ and made one with believing Jews, as one new man so that both are reconciled unto God in one body by the Cross, and as such both Jew and Gentile are fellowcitizens of the household of God.

Eph 2:11-22
(11)  Wherefore remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
(12)  That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(13)  But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(14)  For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(15)  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(16)  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
(17)  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
(18)  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(19)  Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
(20)  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
(21)  In whom all the building fitly framed together grows unto an holy temple in the Lord:
(22)  In whom you also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The passages you provided are about the body of Christ revealed to Paul and are not pertinent to the Gentile believers before Paul who were part of the remnant of Israel.

[douge]

22 hours ago, Josheb said:

Surely you are aware the converts to Christ are grafted into an already existing tree, a tree that does not include unbelieving Jews. The church does not replace Israel, it is grafted into Israel.

The body of Christ Gentiles are not the ones grafted in.

Romans 9 through 11 is about Israel, not the church, the body of Christ.
Romans 9:24 Not only the Jews believed the gospel of the kingdom, and the preaching of Jesus and the twelve, but also Gentiles (Acts 10:45). This was not our gospel of grace. They only believed on the name of Jesus (John 3:18 John 20:31).
Romans 9:27 This is identifying the remnant of Israel as what Paul is talking about. The remnant is the believing Jews and Gentiles who will enter the promised kingdom on earth (Isaiah 2:2-3 Exodus 19:5-6).
Romans 9:30 Those Gentiles had faith, which Israel rejected.
Romans 11:5 At the time Paul was writing, the remnant of Israel, Jew and Gentile, were participants in the church.
Romans 11:11 The believing Gentiles would provoke unbelieving Israel to jealousy.
Romans 11:13 Paul was speaking to the Gentiles, not in the body of Christ, but in the remnant of Israel.
Romans 11:17 The Gentiles were grafted into the remnant of Israel.
Romans 11:20 Unbelieving Israel was broken off the tree. The Gentiles were grafted in by faith
Romans 11:20 The Gentiles could also be broken off branches.
Romans 11:25-27 Israel will be saved.

[douge]

22 hours ago, Josheb said:

This op says the book of Revelation is not about the Church. That's what this op states. The assertion is in the title of the op. This op attempts to argue the book that explicitly states it is given by Jesus "to show to his bond-servants," is not about the Church. This op is an effort to say the book that mentions seven churches (none of which are Jewish or within the land of Israel) is not about the Church. 

The title is abbreviated...it is not about the church, the body of Christ.

[douge]

22 hours ago, Josheb said:

Clarify that please. Are you saying Gentile converts to Christ before Paul were part of the remnant of Israel?

Yes

See Romans 9:24 and Romans 9:27 identifies the remnant. These Gentiles will enter the earthly kingdom.

[douge]

23 hours ago, Josheb said:

This op is an effort to say the book that mentions seven churches (none of which are Jewish or within the land of Israel) is not about the Church. 

The book of Revelation focuses on Israel, not the body of Christ. The churches addressed in chapters 2 and 3 are churches of God, composed of the believing remnant of Israel. The gospel preached is not the gospel of grace, but the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 24:14). The gospel of the kingdom preaches Jesus as Christ, the Son of God, and his coming to establish his kingdom on earth. Israel will reign in the kingdom as kings and priests (John 20:31 Isaiah 2:2-3 Exodus 19:5-6 Revelation 1:6 Revelation 5:10).

The following verses reflect that the remnant of Israel is being addressed.

Revelation 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Israel was instructed to wait patiently for the Lord in Psalm 37:7.

Israel, and the disciples were told to have patience in Luke 21:19.

To receive their promises, Israel had to be patient in Hebrews 10:36.

Israel was to be patient unto the coming of the Lord in James 5:7-8.

Jesus spoke in parable that Israel should not faint in Luke 18:1

Israel was not to faint when chastened in Hebrews 12:5.

2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Israel removed itself far from God in Jeremiah 2:5.

Jesus spoke to Israel, that the love of many would grow cold in Matthew 24:12.

2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The believing remnant of Israel that do the commandments, will have right to the tree of life, and will enter into the city of God, as read in Revelation 22:14.

2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 says as well, that those who say they are Jews, but are not, are the synagogue of Satan.

2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The crown of life is given to those who love the Lord according to James 1:12, which was written to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus, in Matthew 25:21, speaking of the kingdom of heaven, promised Israel that those who are faithful, will be made rulers over many things.

2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1 John 5:5 says it is those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God who overcome. Israel was to believe on the name of Jesus as Christ, the Son of God in John 20:31.

The second death has no power over the remnant of Israel that will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Christ for a thousand years in the kingdom on earth according to Revelation 20:6.

Revelation 2:26 says the remnant overcomers will have power over the nations in the kingdom on earth.

Revelation 3:12 says the remnant overcomers will have the name of the new Jerusalem written upon them.

2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation 3:8 commended those of Israel, who have not denied the name of Christ.

In Matthew 24:9, Jesus told the disciples they would be hated of all nations for his name's sake.

In Luke 21:17 Jesus told the disciples they would be hated for his name's sake.

2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

In Isaiah 62:2, Israel will be called by a new name.

2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Believing Israel had to endure til the end of the tribulation and the coming of Christ to be saved and delivered physically to enter the kingdom on earth according to Matthew 10:22 and Matthew 24:13.

Believing Israel would be given the heathen and the earth according to Psalm 2:8.

Believing Israel will eat the riches of the Gentiles according to Isaiah 61:6.

Believing Israel, who overcome (1 John 5:5), will inherit all things according to Revelation 21:7.

Believing Israel, who keep the word, bring forth fruit, as seen in Luke 8:15.

The disciples were told they are appointed the kingdom on earth, and would sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel in Luke 22:29-30.

3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

In the tribulation, believing Israel will be purified, tried, and made white in Daniel 12:10

Speaking to the twelve disciples of Israel, Jesus said whosoever would confess him before men, would be confessed before the Father and the angels in Matthew 10:32 and Luke 12:8.

3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Those 144,000 from the tribes of Israel will have the name of the Father in their foreheads according to Revelation 14:1.

In the holy city, the new Jerusalem, the believing of Israel will have the name of God and the lamb in their foreheads in Revelation 22:4.

3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Israel was to consider that the Lord would chasten them in Deuteronomy 8:5.

Israel would be chastened for correction as a father the son in Proverbs 3:11-12 and Hebrews 12:5-11.

3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Israel was to wait for the Lord, and when he knocks on the door, open it immediately, and sup with him in Luke 12:36-7.

Israel was to open the door in Song of Songs 5:2.

3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The remnant of Israel will be made kings and priests according to Revelation 1:6.

The disciples will sit on twelve thrones in the kingdom on earth, judging the twelve tribes of Israel in Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30.

[douge]

On 6/22/2020 at 6:46 PM, Josheb said:

Romans 11:17-states the Gentile convert has already been grafted in. You just acknowledged that. The "you" in Romans 11 are what you've called "body of Christ Gentiles" (a term nowhere found in scripture - in Christ there is neither Jew or Greek)

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Paul was speaking to the Gentiles, not in the body of Christ, but in the remnant of Israel.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Those grafted in were the Gentiles of v 13 who are in the remnant of Israel, not the body of Christ.

Just to clarify I can't find where I said "body of Christ Gentiles", but if I did, I used it for identification and clarification and never said it was used in scripture.

[Justin Adams]

Oh dear Oh dear.

[douge]

On 6/22/2020 at 6:46 PM, Josheb said:

When you, douge, read the word "you"  and the word "we" in Romans you necessarily need to read, "all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints." 

That is who the "you" and "we" of Romans are. 

They are in fact body of Christ Gentiles.

Yes, the epistle is written to the body, but the topic of chapters 9 thru 11 is Israel