The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse

[not an echo]

Hello all,

Yesterday I started a thread titled, The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse.  For the one who may have not seen that thread, according to the opening verses of The Revelation, it is quite evident that John was shown things that were "at hand" to begin to take place (Rev. 1:1-3).  The Revelation is his record of what he saw, and he was told to send this, with specific messages, to the seven churches that were in Asia (Rev. 1:10-11), which he did (Rev. 2-3).  Just before he was shown what would be taking place, he was called up "in the spirit" to Heaven and allowed to behold God on His throne (Rev. 4).  John then tells of a book he saw in God's right hand, which was sealed with seven seals, and of an event that takes place in Heaven in which the Lamb (Jesus Christ) alone is found worthy to have charge of it (Rev. 5).  The beginning of what was about to start taking place related to the opening of the seals of that Seven Sealed Book, a book that could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  The seals of the book pertain to the post-apostolic era of the Church and what is slated to take place before the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6-7).  In other words, the seals of the book represent what will be taking place leading up to what is contained within the book.

In harmony with Scripture, and testified to by history, Christ opened the first four seals late in the first century, granting to Satan the certain liberties that he (Satan) has been given to continue the plying of his craft into and during the era of Christianity (also known as the Church Age).  As it has always been, Satan would have absolutely no liberties otherwise.  As revealed in The Revelation, these liberties are exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen of the first four seals.  Moreover, these horsemen have been riding down through the corridors of the Christian era even unto our day, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  To the discerning eye, a survey of history since the first century will reveal that they have left quite a trail.  Their activity is responsible for the things Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, things that have characterized every century of the Christian era.  With this thread, I would like to look a little closer at the opening of the 2nd Seal and its horseman.  Consider, from Revelation 6:

  3   And when He had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

  4   And there went out another horse that was red:  and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another:  and there was given unto him a great sword.

There is certainly no difficulty seeing the correlation between what John here saw and what Jesus spoke next in His Olivet Discourse.  From Matthew's account, in chapter 24, consider:

  6   And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars:  see that ye be not troubled:  for all these things must come to pass but the end is not yet.

  7   For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

Perhaps no other words that Jesus spoke concerning what the future held resonate with our generation more than these, that there would be "wars and rumours of wars."  There is really no need to take the time to mention the wars that have occurred in the last hundred years, which the United States alone has been involved in, much less the rest of the world.  And, what about all the wars that have occurred since John received The Revelation!

Think about this:  How long has Christ's Bride worked towards peaceful solutions to humanity's differences so that war might be averted, only to have so many of Her efforts rode roughshod  over by something?  In harmony with Scripture, we can rightly conclude that the rider on the red horse of the 2nd Seal has been the culprit here.  I can almost envision this horseman busying himself to keep everything among peoples and nations in a stir, always endeavoring to keep the fires of war kindled.  Isn't it amazing how much we would like to have peace in the world and yet how difficult it is to attain?  Why is this so?  It is so because of this rider's power "to take peace from the earth" and his obsession with the exercising of this power.  If the activity of the rider on this red horse has been behind all the wars that have occurred since the first century, the sword he has wielded has indeed been great (vs. 4).

It might be asked, "If Satan has been granted such liberty, what is the Church to do?"  My answer is this:  Just because Satan has been granted certain powers does not mean that God has left us powerless!  Paul instructed the Church to be "strong in the Lord, and in the power of HIS might" (Eph. 6:10).  What a message there is for us here!  It is not just the horseman of the 2nd Seal who has been given a great sword.  The Bride has in Her arsenal "the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God" (Eph. 6:17)!  So, though we are fighting "against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12), we must not retreat.  We must continue in our own campaign, in keeping with the song we sing, "Onward Christian Soldiers."  And fellow soldiers, when it seems that you are in a place where you cannot advance, stand, "having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;  And your feet shod with the preparation of the Gospel of Peace" (Eph. 6:14-15). This is the only way to countervail for the peace that the horseman of the 2nd Seal is bent on taking away.

Following are threads that I have concerning the other seals:

The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/).

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/).

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).

The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/).

These threads concern A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have.  Following is a link to my master thread by this title: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo
add links

[R. Hartono]

Wars happened since the ancient time of Hebrew, kungdoms foughr kungdoms,  babylon, Persia, greece, romans, long be4 the vision of  2 nd seal opening. Peace returns  after ww1 n WW2 because it has not been taken yet by the 2nd seal opening. Peace stll prevail in many nations now. The 2nd seal opening shows no more peace thru out the world n u Will see people killing each other near you n nothing can stop them. Hv u seen it now ?

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by R. Hartono

[Diaste]

I don't know. It's seems both OPs present a highly romanticized view of the first two seal.

This phrase, "nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" I've been told is idiomatic for a truly global conflagration of war. As in not just regions with clearly defined borders at war with each other, but every district, enclave, warlord, potentate, or self styled king or authority at war. This is dramatic elevation in conflict affecting the entire landmass of earth. 

Same with, "and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."  The idea of 'divers' is horrific. It carries the meaning of daily or complete, throughout and extreme. This is no ordinary iteration of 'natural disasters'.

There really is no point in the prophecy if it's speaking to 2000 years of history. The parallels in Matt 24 cannot be likened to the past two millennia when it's clear from the bible itself equally atrocious occurrences of war and disaster took place before God in the flesh was born of a virgin. 

And it seems a willful ignorance to parcel out verses and fragments eschewing a comprehensive interpretation of Matt 24, or any other chapters or books. For example:

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know  that it is near, [even] at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

These two imperatives are impossible to fulfill if the prophetic span is two millennia.

[Scott Free]

"For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled." Revelation 17:17

"My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place." John 18:36

[not an echo]

On 4/4/2020 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

 

On 4/4/2020 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

I don't know. It's seems both OPs present a highly romanticized view of the first two seal.

This phrase, "nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" I've been told is idiomatic for a truly global conflagration of war. As in not just regions with clearly defined borders at war with each other, but every district, enclave, warlord, potentate, or self styled king or authority at war. This is dramatic elevation in conflict affecting the entire landmass of earth. 

Hello again Diaste (and all), hope everything is well,

But, Jesus also says, "And ye shall hear of wars, and rumours of wars."  And, "see that ye be not troubled."  This does not really bespeak a "truly global conflagration of war",  do you think?  Rather, I don't see how that history could have dovetailed with Jesus' words any better.  Not to mention how His words resonate with our generation.  God's children talk about it all the time!

On 4/4/2020 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

Same with, "and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."  The idea of 'divers' is horrific. It carries the meaning of daily or complete, throughout and extreme. This is no ordinary iteration of 'natural disasters'.

The idea of 'divers' is various, or diverse.  Jesus was saying, "and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in [various] places."  Again, I don't see how that history could have dovetailed with Jesus' words any better.  He was spot on, and history has been spot on.

On 4/4/2020 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

There really is no point in the prophecy if it's speaking to 2000 years of history. The parallels in Matt 24 cannot be likened to the past two millennia when it's clear from the bible itself equally atrocious occurrences of war and disaster took place before God in the flesh was born of a virgin. 

Another argument is that Jesus knew His followers could easily anticipate that things in this world would change for the better, especially after His resurrection and what would happen on the Day of Pentecost---but it was not to be so.  In hindsight, it is easy to see Jesus conveying that, to whatever extent the forces of evil had been active up to that time, they were going to continue to be so, and especially in some Christianity-specific ways.

On 4/4/2020 at 6:06 AM, Diaste said:

And it seems a willful ignorance to parcel out verses and fragments eschewing a comprehensive interpretation of Matt 24, or any other chapters or books. For example:

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know  that it is near, [even] at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

These two imperatives are impossible to fulfill if the prophetic span is two millennia.

According to my understanding of Scripture, a comparison with The Revelation, and the testimony of history, the Olivet Discourse can be rightly divided into three sections:

The opening section pertains to the era of the Church---is consistent with each account---and is not broken up in any way.  That section includes Matthew 24:4-14;  Mark 13:5-13;  and Luke 21:8-19.

The middle section pertains to Last Day's Israelites---is consistent with each account---and is also not broken up in any way.  That section includes Matthew 24:15-28;  Mark 13:14-23;  and Luke 21:20-24.

The closing section concerns both the Church and Last Day's Israelites---pertains to the day of the rapture---is consistent with each account---and once again, is not broken up in any way.  That section includes Matthew 24:29-51;  Mark 13:24-37;  and Luke 21:25-36.

I show illustrations of the above in my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).

Relating to this, it is inescapable that part of the "things" Jesus' parable of the fig tree relates to are the signs that will accompany the day of His "sign" appearance, spoken of in Matthew 24:29-31.  Without skipping any verses, consider afresh what He says (with my clarifying note and emphasis):

 32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree;  When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

 33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (His Second Advent!) IS NEAR, even at the doors.

 34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Did you see it?  In the context of what Jesus had just got through talking about, He uses characteristics of the fig tree to illustrate just how near His Second Advent will be after He makes His sign appearance---reinforcing that there will be two phases to His return.  Consider the assurance this parable will hold for Last Days' Israelites who will be left behind at the rapture.  What Jesus is saying is that after the things of which He had just warned, and especially the sign event of verses 29-31, His Second Advent will be "near, even at the doors."

I've got to go, but one last thing I would invite you to consider:  There is nothing in the last section of Jesus' discourse that doesn't relate to the day the rapture will occur.  This is consistent with each account.  While it is needless to stress that this event pertains to the Church, it may be needful to stress once more that it pertains to Last Day's Israelites, because the day that the Church is gone, the focus will be brought to bear upon them, and it will be a time of the greatest tribulation that has ever been.

Sure is hard to find a good stopping place.   The Olivet Discourse is so structured and phenomenal.  Jesus opens with a message for His Church, continues with a message for the Israelites concerning Daniel's 70th Week, and closes with a message concerning the event of the rapture, which will remove the Church, and bring the focus again to bear upon the Israelites, for the fulfilling of the final sequel to Daniel's 70 Week's prophecy.  What a Script---ure!

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

On 4/8/2020 at 11:51 PM, not an echo said:

But, Jesus also says, "And ye shall hear of wars, and rumours of wars."  And, "see that ye be not troubled."  This does not really bespeak a "truly global conflagration of war," do you think?  Rather, I don't see how that history could have dovetailed with Jesus' words any better.  Not to mention how His words resonate with our generation.  God's children talk about it all the time!

As I was saying, it's not what I think, I have been told the phrase 'nations against nations and kings against kings, is idiomatic for everyone at war with everyone else; sort of like the World Wars but involving every people group in a global theater, as in everywhere in the earth.

I think the idea of Matt 24:4-8 is not the same as 2000 years of war and disease and natural disasters. As a logical point, how would we ever distinguish any particular period as described in Matt 24:4-11 throughout two millennia? Every scholar would have a different take on the matter and it would never be a period one could point to as distinct from all others in order to fulfill the prophecy. 

One could say the world wars were the 'nations rising against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms' and it could be possible. But the generation that saw that war is nearly gone, if not gone already, without witnessing the other associated events. 

 

On 4/8/2020 at 11:51 PM, not an echo said:

The idea of 'divers' is various, or diverse.  Jesus was saying, "and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in [various] places."  Again, I don't see how that history could have dovetailed with Jesus' words any better.  He was spot on, and history has been spot on.

If one delved into 'divers' they would see it does not mean 'various'; "different from one another; of different kinds or sorts." or, 'diverse'; "showing a great deal of variety; very different.":

"kata: down, against, according to"

"against, down from, throughout, by; acc: over against, among, daily, day-by-day, each day, according to, by way of."

The idea is 'down from top to bottom and throughout, moving to the end point. Again, if it is through 2000 years of history how would we distinguish the fulfillment of this prophecy specifically? We cannot. Wars, rumors of wars, plagues, pestilence, earthquakes, etc, have been happening since well before Jesus walked the earth. The last 2000 years has been no different than the 2000 years prior to Jesus in this regard.

On 4/8/2020 at 11:51 PM, not an echo said:

Another argument is that Jesus knew His followers could easily anticipate that things in this world would change for the better, especially after His resurrection and what would happen on the Day of Pentecost---but it was not to be so.  In hindsight, it is easy to see Jesus conveying that, to whatever extent the forces of evil had been active up to that time, they were going to continue to be so, and especially in some Christianity-specific ways.

That doesn't really deal with the issue. There's a bit here that should be a discussion on it's own. It's not exactly a revelation that, "whatever extent the forces of evil had been active up to that time, they were going to continue to be so," and appears to just steer away from the point.

On 4/8/2020 at 11:51 PM, not an echo said:

Did you see it?  In the context of what Jesus had just got through talking about, He uses characteristics of the fig tree to illustrate just how near His Second Coming will be after He makes His sign appearance---reinforcing that there will be two phases to His return.  Consider the assurance this parable will hold for Last Day's Israelites who will be left behind at the rapture.  What Jesus is saying is that after the things of which He had just warned, and especially the sign event of verses 29-31, His Second Coming will be "near, even at the doors."

It's hard to come to agreement when the foundation is unsound. There is no evidence of 'two phases'. It's just wishful thinking. I have been over this a hundred times and looked at all the evidence presented by a dozen or more proponents of pretrib and not a shred of evidence exists for such a thing.

The other problem is dispensationalism. There are two Israels: one spiritual and one the nation and land and that's it. The 'church' is made up of the seed of Abraham and is not in any way separate from spiritual Israel. In fact the 'church' or 'Gentile believers' do not and cannot exist apart from spiritual Israel as they must be grafted into spiritual Israel and are made partakers of the promises, the blessings and the curses for which the people of God are destined. 

Jewish believers do not join the rolls of the 'church', they are the church and the rest of us are adopted into the Jewish family as full members and heirs as God's children. 

[not an echo]

On 4/11/2020 at 3:35 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/9/2020 at 12:51 AM, not an echo said:

But, Jesus also says, "And ye shall hear of wars, and rumours of wars."  And, "see that ye be not troubled."  This does not really bespeak a "truly global conflagration of war," do you think?  Rather, I don't see how that history could have dovetailed with Jesus' words any better.  Not to mention how His words resonate with our generation.  God's children talk about it all the time!

As I was saying, it's not what I think, I have been told the phrase 'nations against nations and kings against kings, is idiomatic for everyone at war with everyone else; sort of like the World Wars but involving every people group in a global theater, as in everywhere in the earth.

I think the idea of Matt 24:4-8 is not the same as 2000 years of war and disease and natural disasters. As a logical point, how would we ever distinguish any particular period as described in Matt 24:4-11 throughout two millennia? Every scholar would have a different take on the matter and it would never be a period one could point to as distinct from all others in order to fulfill the prophecy. 

One could say the world wars were the 'nations rising against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms' and it could be possible. But the generation that saw that war is nearly gone, if not gone already, without witnessing the other associated events. 

Hello again Diaste (and all),

As I'm considering your reply, I'm kinda looking for evidence of "everyone at war with everyone else" involving "every people group in a global theater, as in everywhere in the earth" anywhere in The Revelation.

Concerning "2000 years of war and disease and natural disasters" and "how would we ever distinguish any particular period as described in Matt 24:4-11 throughout two millennia",  I'm thinking that there is not a need to try to distinguish anything as much as there is a need to recognize that everything Jesus spoke of has characterized all of the Christian era.  What would be the need to distinguish one period from another period?  The same thing has happened in all of the periods, or centuries, if you will, or even decades.  And, the things Jesus spoke of have not been fulfilled, as in past tense.  Rather, what He spoke of has never ceased to be fulfilled and is being fulfilled even now!  In my thinking, my faith is ever strengthened by my marvel of how spot on Jesus was concerning the things (don't forget Rev. 1:1-3) of which He warned 2000 years ago.

As I have said someplace else, and I believe it bears repeating here:  Things could have been a lot different.  Things could have been such that none would even presume to regard themselves to be some kind of Messiah, or Christ, but many have since Christ's time, and several have in our own generation, like Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, Father Divine, David Koresh, and others whose names I can't remember.  And, this is not to mention those of whom we have never heard.  Concerning wars, Christianity could have had such a far reaching impact that these would, in our generation, be considered something of the long distant past, but it's not quite that way, is it?  Also, modern man (with much pride) could have made such advances that things such as world hunger and pestilences are no longer a concern.  Selah.  Or, there could have been a relaxing along all of earth's fault lines to the point that earthquakes never happen any more.  Things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.  Christians could have become so very respected that none would even think in terms of persecuting, much less martyring them.  On the flip side, they could have faded from history like a little cult that never really got established.  Again, things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.  Isn't that something?  Atheists, agnostics, and unbelievers should take note.  Things could have turned out such that of Jesus Christ, history would bear out that He didn't know what He was talking about.  Can't you see it Diaste?  In my thinking, Jesus hit all His nails square on the head.  Shouldn't surprise us, He being The Divine Carpenter.  Selah

On 4/11/2020 at 3:35 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/9/2020 at 12:51 AM, not an echo said:

The idea of 'divers' is various, or diverse.  Jesus was saying, "and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in [various] places."  Again, I don't see how that history could have dovetailed with Jesus' words any better.  He was spot on, and history has been spot on.

If one delved into 'divers' they would see it does not mean 'various'; "different from one another; of different kinds or sorts." or, 'diverse'; "showing a great deal of variety; very different.":

"kata: down, against, according to"

"against, down from, throughout, by; acc: over against, among, daily, day-by-day, each day, according to, by way of."

The idea is 'down from top to bottom and throughout, moving to the end point. Again, if it is through 2000 years of history how would we distinguish the fulfillment of this prophecy specifically? We cannot. Wars, rumors of wars, plagues, pestilence, earthquakes, etc, have been happening since well before Jesus walked the earth. The last 2000 years has been no different than the 2000 years prior to Jesus in this regard.

Diaste, with Christian charity (and praying that I don't offend), I believe you are looking too closely at the finch's beak and missing the marvelously exquisite feathered flying bird.

Matthew 24:7 (KJV)

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:  and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

New International Version
Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

New Living Translation
Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world.

English Standard Version
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

Berean Study Bible
Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

Berean Literal Bible
For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

New American Standard Bible
"For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

New King James Version
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

Christian Standard Bible
For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

Contemporary English Version
Nations and kingdoms will go to war against each other. People will starve to death, and in some places there will be earthquakes.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

International Standard Version
because nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

NET Bible
For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

New Heart English Bible
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be famines and plagues and earthquakes in various places.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For nation will arise against nation, and Kingdom against Kingdom, and there will be famines and plagues and earthquakes in various places.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Nation will fight against nation and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

New American Standard 1977
“For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

King James 2000 Bible
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in various places.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places:

Weymouth New Testament
For nation will rise in arms against nation, kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places;

World English Bible
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be famines, plagues, and earthquakes in various places.

 

Got to go for a bit Diaste.  Please understand that I would much more like to agree than to disagree.  I would much more like to be liked than to be disliked.  I do believe that as long as we practice Biblical charity (I Cor. 13:4-7) we will be fine.  We do "see through a glass darkly" and I believe you, as well as I, are endeavoring to bring things into better focus.  As I have myself come to see some things differently over the years, my mentality is to always be respectful towards the way another is presently seeing things.  To me, all of this is helpful for us, if done with charity and under the guidance of Christ's Holy Spirit.  Do wish I had more time.  

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/11/2020 at 3:35 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/9/2020 at 12:51 AM, not an echo said:

Another argument is that Jesus knew His followers could easily anticipate that things in this world would change for the better, especially after His resurrection and what would happen on the Day of Pentecost---but it was not to be so.  In hindsight, it is easy to see Jesus conveying that, to whatever extent the forces of evil had been active up to that time, they were going to continue to be so, and especially in some Christianity-specific ways.

That doesn't really deal with the issue. There's a bit here that should be a discussion on it's own. It's not exactly a revelation that, "whatever extent the forces of evil had been active up to that time, they were going to continue to be so," and appears to just steer away from the point.

The disciples would not have known just what the future was going to hold.  Even with some hints, we know they didn't pick up on things very good.  Just like us.  As I see it, on the Day of Pentecost, they could have easily thought, "Hey, this thing is gonna go!!!"  What, with 3000 getting saved who had just a few weeks prior both called for and consented to the crucifixion of Jesus!  You can almost envision the excitement in the air as you read Acts 2:42-47.  And, everything is fine in Acts 3.  Then, in Acts 4, it comes.

Diaste, a revelation is exactly what it would have been.  Actually, a revelation upon a revelation upon a revelation.  It takes a lot of revelations for us to get it, and then ofttimes we still don't.  Look at the religious higher echelon in Jesus' day.  They knew Scripture like the back of their hand, and missed it by a country mile.  Hey, Jesus gave Peter the revelation that he would deny Him three times in the next few hours, and that's just what he did.  Peter!!!  Remember the two on the Emmaus road?  They weren't getting it.  They were followers of Jesus and it's the first Easter morning.  And here Jesus is walking with them!  And what did Jesus say to them?  "O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken" (Lk. 24:25).

So, things are coming to a head.  Jesus has made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem.  He's not fixing to get any kind of endorsement from the Sanhedrin, nor any of its supporters---a necessary if He was going to be accepted as the Jewish Messiah.  Last thing He had to say in earshot of the unbelieving Jews before His arrest was this, from Matthew 23:

 37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 38  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

 39  For I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, BLESSED IS HE THAT COMETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.

Everything He says now till the time of His arrest is to the pillars of His Church.  Most of what He says to them is for them and those who will believe on Him "through their word" (Jn. 17:20), speaking of the Church.  Some of what He says to them is for the Israelites.  Oh, and some of what He says was for Judas.

So, Jesus' Olivet Discourse, does any of it pertain to the Church?  Of course it does.  No Orthodox Jew would let himself be delivered up, afflicted, killed, and hated for Jesus' "name's sake" (Matt. 24:9).  And "this gospel of the kingdom",  the Jews didn't want to hear it then, and for the most part, they don't want to hear it now.  Hey, but that's just what the Church is all about.  The Bride is alright with all of the gospel that She can get and give.  She holds the "keys of the kingdom" (Matt. 16:18-19)!  A marvel of marvels is how that what Jesus said to the pillars of His Church in the opening of His Olivet Discourse is as relevant and timely for our generation of the Church as it was for the first generation of the Church and every generation of the Church that has ever been!  And some scholars want to tell us that it only pertains to the Jews!  I'm reminded of Paul's words to Timothy concerning those that are "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:7).

Not only does Jesus' Olivet Discourse pertain to the Church, He sandwiched it with words that pertain to the Church.  In Mark's account, in chapter 13, consider afresh what He says to the pillars of His Church:

 34  For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to HIS SERVANTS, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

 35  WATCH YE THEREFORE:  for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Something quite revealing here is Jesus' reference to "His servants" and what He says of Himself and them in verse 34.  His servants would be His disciples and all of His followers during the era of the Church.  And, before Jesus took His "far journey" He gave "work" to each of His disciples and by extension, to everyone who would become a part of His Church.  That work is summed up in His Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20).

Well, Diaste, I might have gotten a little carried away.  I've been kinda soaked up in the accounts of Jesus passion week this weekend.  I believe you will understand.  I hope that you are able to understand a little more where I am coming from.

Got to go.  When I'm able to return, I hope to respond to your response concerning the two phases of Christ's return.  I certainly believe that His return will be in two phases, just not quite as put forth by adherents of the common pre-trib view.

Hope you (and all) have a meaningful Easter.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

As I'm considering your reply, I'm kinda looking for evidence of "everyone at war with everyone else" involving "every people group in a global theater, as in everywhere in the earth" any where in The Revelation.

Concerning "2000 years of war and disease and natural disasters" and "how would we ever distinguish any particular period as described in Matt 24:4-11 throughout two millennia,"  I'm thinking that there is not a need to try to distinguish anything as much as there is a need to recognize that everything Jesus spoke of has characterized all of the Christian era.  What would be the need to distinguish one period from another period?  The same thing has happened in all of the periods, or centuries, if you will, or even decades.  And, the things Jesus spoke of have not been fulfilled, as in past tense.  Rather, what He spoke of has never ceased to be fulfilled and is being fulfilled even now!  In my thinking, my faith is ever strengthened by my marvel of how spot on Jesus was concerning the things (don't forget Rev. 1:1-3) of which He warned 2000 years ago.

I think the evidence might exist in Revelation but that's not the idea. Jesus spoke of this 'wars and rumors of wars' in the context of the end of the age. No other context, not the last days, or the last times, or 'church age', the end of the age and the sign of His coming. So He answered, and a part of that answer is 'wars and rumors of wars' and 'nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom'. This part of the answer must be in the same context as the question posed; "What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Therefore 'wars and rumors of wars' and 'nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom' must be related to the end of the age and the sign of His coming and is one of the signs of His coming. It must therefore have some distinguishing characteristics to set it apart from all the other 'wars and rumors of wars' that have been taking place. 

Don't you see how that could be an issue? To reduce this to generalities? There have been great wars since the time Jesus walked the earth. The Mongol invasion of the entire known world. The Mongols were at the Danube at one point after consuming most of Asia. And the Islamic wars that raged for 700 years killing 250,000,000 people. But in neither case do we see the end of the age nor the return of Jesus as both of these times must be part of "What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" in order for them to be the fulfillment of 'wars and rumors of wars' and 'nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom' and they obviously were not.

This is why it's going to be imperative to distinguish 'wars and rumors of wars' and 'nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom' as related to eschatology and specifically the answer to "What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" cause clearly the Mongols, Islam and two world wars did not usher in "the sign of your coming and the end of the age?"

So whether or not there have been 'wars and rumors of wars' and 'nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom'  and there have, none of it has been near to the end of the age nor the sign of His coming nor did 'wars and rumors of wars' and 'nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom' fulfill  "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened" of which  'wars and rumors of wars' and 'nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom' is a part.

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

Diaste, with Christian charity (and praying that I don't offend), I believe you are looking too closely at the finch's beak and missing the marvelously exquisite feathered flying bird.

 Yes indeed. One can post as many versions as one would like but it does not change the fact. "Kata" is defined as posted earlier. Just because a translator choose a word to compensate for lack of depth does not mean the translation carries with it the full concept or idea of the original term. "Divers" does not simply mean 'various' without the idea of complete or throughout and daily. You are free to believe as you see fit. There is an escalation coming in all these things; the very earth will be in pain.

 

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

So, Jesus' Olivet Discourse, does any of it pertain to the Church?  Of course it does.  No Orthodox Jew would let himself be delivered up, afflicted, killed, and hated for Jesus' "name's sake" (Matt. 24:9).  And "this gospel of the kingdom," the Jews didn't want to hear it then, and for the most part, they don't want to hear it now.  Hey, but that's just what the Church is all about.  The Bride is alright with all of the gospel that She can get and give.  She holds the "keys of the kingdom" (Matt. 16:18-19)!  A marvel of marvels is how that what Jesus said to the pillars of His Church in the opening of His Olivet Discourse is as relevant and timely for our generation of the Church as it was for the first generation of the Church and every generation of the Church that has ever been!  And some scholars want to tell us that it only pertains to the Jews!  I'm reminded of Paul's words to Timothy concerning those that are "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:7).

Refreshing. Many do not see that.

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

  I certainly believe that His return will be in two phases, just not quite as put forth by adherents of the common pre-trib view.

Happy Resurrection Day!

Could you please explain this to me? To me it is mind boggling. The same as pre trib.