IN THE MIDST OF COVID19, WHAT'S NEXT IN BIBLE PROPHECY?

[luigi]

23 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, just imagination: the He goat was Alexander and he is LONG GONE. Don't miss what I say: there is NOTHING in Daniel 8 about our future. Yes, it is possible that SYRIA and PERSIA may be involved  - but it won't be those ancient countries and it won't be a king that dies and four take his place. 

How? Alexander invented the "blitzkrieg." He covered a HUGE area in a short period of time with foot troops! How long would it take just to walk from Greece to India? That is probably close to 6000 KM! 

If you wish to look, you could find on line the letter Alexander sent to Darius of Persia, and you could read the details of the battle when he defeated Persia. 

Greece is relatively next door to Persia in the Middle East, and would not have had to traverse the whole earth from the West (not East from India as you state), without touching the ground to annihilate Persia. Greece is therefore a metaphor for a nation comparable in stature to that of ancient Greece when this data was presented to Daniel in the 6th century BC. Greece is where Democracy originated, and was the most technologically advanced nation among its peers at that time.

When you take these criteria along with the other criteria of the rough he goat, and during the end times we have a technologically advanced Democratic nation with a notable military who traverses the whole earth without touching the ground (via sea and air) who annihilates Iran (formerly Persia).

[iamlamad]

57 minutes ago, luigi said:

Greece is relatively next door to Persia in the Middle East, and would not have had to traverse the whole earth from the West (not East from India as you state), without touching the ground to annihilate Persia. Greece is therefore a metaphor for a nation comparable in stature to that of ancient Greece when this data was presented to Daniel in the 6th century BC. Greece is where Democracy originated, and was the most technologically advanced nation among its peers at that time.

When you take these criteria along with the other criteria of the rough he goat, and during the end times we have a technologically advanced Democratic nation with a notable military who traverses the whole earth without touching the ground (via sea and air) who annihilates Iran (formerly Persia).

You certainly have a wild imagination; I'll give you that much! 

Indeed, Alexander DID go all the way to India. In fact, through India all the way to Pakistan.  But Persia was first as you suggest. 

Geece is certainly not a metaphor! Daniel really did see Alexander the Great 300 plus years before it happened as a goat with a notable horn that was broken and four stood up. It was so remarkable a prophecy that many "experts" think it was written after the fact.  

Why don't you just believe Daniel that chapter 8 is about Antiochus while chapters 7 and 12 are about the Beast of Revelation? 

Sorry, I just don't have such an imagination as you. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

I never brought up Syria and Egypt as you claim I did. I am not going to spend an hour or more responding to all the conjectures you present here. Can't you answer the correlations in scriptures I raised in just a few sentences or a couple of paragraphs rather than presenting an obfuscated massive quantity of unsubstantiated suppositions?

In a way you did: what is north of Israel, as in the King of the North? It is Syria. Some think the Beast of Rev. 13 is an Assyrian. Egypt is the hangout of the King of the South. 

Anyway, you wrote, "You provide multiple unsupported by scriptures conjectures." If I did, now they are supported. It is without a doubt at all that the first seal was opened in 32 AD.  And the others up to seal 5 shortly thereafter, so your take on the horseman is bogus, sorry to say. 

I guess I cannot, for where you see a correlation I don't.  I will agree on a correlation between the time, times and half of time in Daniel and the 5 mentions of the same period of time in Revelation. But I don't know if you agree. They are ALL speaking of the last half of the time of Jacob's trouble: the 70th week of Daniel. 

I did not expect a response to my long post: I just wanted you to know why I am adamant about the first seals being opened around 32 AD. 

[luigi]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Why don't you just believe Daniel that chapter 8 is about Antiochus while chapters 7 and 12 are about the Beast of Revelation? 

Sorry, I just don't have such an imagination as you. 

I rather believe the Word in Daniel 8:17 & 19, and 12:4 & 9 that these events shown Daniel are to occur during the end times, than believe some event in the past of which the criteria in the Word does not corroborate. I have root in the Word, while others who believe in some made up story that conflicts with the Word, have little root in the Word.

[luigi]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

I did not expect a response to my long post: I just wanted you to know why I am adamant about the first seals being opened around 32 AD. 

After John receives the messages meant for the early churches throughout Asia Minor in Revelation chapters 2 and 3, John is then called up to heaven to be shown things which must be hereafter (Revelation 4:1). This is the Word, which means the description of events in following chapters are forthcoming after the 1st century AD events. The first horseman in Revelation 6 is therefore not a historical account of a 32 AD event, but is a forthcoming event.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

[iamlamad]

Just now, luigi said:

After John receives the messages meant for the early churches throughout Asia Minor in Revelation chapters 2 and 3, John is then called up to heaven to be shown things which must be hereafter (Revelation 4:1). This is the Word, which means the description of events in following chapters are forthcoming after the 1st century AD events. The first horseman in Revelation 6 is therefore not a historical account of a 32 AD event, but is a forthcoming event.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. This is a statement of fact. Ask yourself, DID God fulfill this? DID God show John things that will come "after?" I would say many many things. 

I think you are not reading this correctly. God did not say ONLY things hereafter."

Don't imagine words that God did not supply because of preconceptions. God did NOT put Himself in a box - so to speak, so He could not show John a few things of history. 

If you don't agree with the answers to His three questions I provided, feel free to come up with your own answers. His questions are very legitimate: anyone could ask these same questions from the written text of chapters 4 & 5. In other words, it is word for word that "no man was found." It is a legitimate question: WHY was Jesus not found in that first search? And WHY was the Holy Spirit there when we would expect Him to have been sent down. And WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father on the throne? We can be sure God chose those words carefully to present EXACTLY the message He wanted. He WANTED to show John God the Father on the throne, but Jesus not to be seen. 

[iamlamad]

19 minutes ago, luigi said:

I rather believe the Word in Daniel 8:17 & 19, and 12:4 & 9 that these events shown Daniel are to occur during the end times, than believe some event in the past of which the criteria in the Word does not corroborate. I have root in the Word, while others who believe in some made up story that conflicts with the Word, have little root in the Word.

What do you mean, "the criteria in the Word does not corroborate"?  Every word in chapter 8 speaks of ancient history. It is about Persia and Greece, and then Greece in the later time of their kingdom.  It was not long after that that Rome defeated the last of the Seleucus empire. Remember Antony and Cleopatra?  That was the end of Greece in the Promised land. 

It is only people reading with preconceptions that cause anyone to imagine Daniel 8 has anything to do with the end times.  Do you understand that? People read with an idea or theory already in their head, so what they read MUST fit their theory - whether it really does or not.  Daniel is very clear that "the end" he wrote of is the end of the four kingdoms, and specifically the end of the Seleucus kingdom.

You are not the only one to make this mistake: Yesterday I read from several commentaries, and at least one video, and they all imagine those 2300 days somehow MUST fit into the 2520 days of the 70th week. In other words, you have much company. That does not make it truth. The video was a Rabbi teaching!

Edited May 12, 2020 by iamlamad

[luigi]

36 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. This is a statement of fact. Ask yourself, DID God fulfill this? DID God show John things that will come "after?" I would say many many things. 

I think you are not reading this correctly. God did not say ONLY things hereafter."

Don't imagine words that God did not supply because of preconceptions. God did NOT put Himself in a box - so to speak, so He could not show John a few things of history. 

If you don't agree with the answers to His three questions I provided, feel free to come up with your own answers. His questions are very legitimate: anyone could ask these same questions from the written text of chapters 4 & 5. In other words, it is word for word that "no man was found." It is a legitimate question: WHY was Jesus not found in that first search? And WHY was the Holy Spirit there when we would expect Him to have been sent down. And WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father on the throne? We can be sure God chose those words carefully to present EXACTLY the message He wanted. He WANTED to show John God the Father on the throne, but Jesus not to be seen. 

You are correct that the Lord did not say to John, " I will show you only things hereafter", but it is implied in "I will show you things hereafter" without having to do so. Are you then not twisting the Word to make it mean something other than what the Word plainly states?

[luigi]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

What do you mean, "the criteria in the Word does not corroborate"?  Every word in chapter 8 speaks of ancient history. It is about Persia and Greece, and then Greece in the later time of their kingdom.  It was not long after that that Rome defeated the last of the Seleucus empire. Remember Antony and Cleopatra?  That was the end of Greece in the Promised land. 

It is only people reading with preconceptions that cause anyone to imagine Daniel 8 has anything to do with the end times.  Do you understand that? People read with an idea or theory already in their head, so what they read MUST fit their theory - whether it really does or not.  Daniel is very clear that "the end" he wrote of is the end of the four kingdoms, and specifically the end of the Seleucus kingdom.

You are not the only one to make this mistake: Yesterday I read from several commentaries, and at least one video, and they all imagine those 2300 days somehow MUST fit into the 2520 days of the 70th week. In other words, you have much company. That does not make it truth. The video was a Rabbi teaching!

Do I have to repeat my previous statements in which the rough he goat traverses the whole earth from the West representing a nation a lot further away than is Greece from Persia? And do I have to repeat that the he goat not touching the ground to annihilate Persia indicates the he goats notable air force?

Do you recollect how I informed you previously about Hell and Death under the fourth seal also appears in Isaiah 28?

Take a look at the verses in Isaiah 28:18-20 and see that what flies overhead by day and by night taking the lives of Judeans is an air force, with their Northern to Southern borders, and their Eastern to Southern borders to narrow to find cover from the daily and nightly aerial sorties.

The Lord provides us correlating descriptions in His Word so that the devil's false fabrications can be separated from the truth.

 

 Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. 20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

Edited May 12, 2020 by luigi

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, luigi said:

Do I have to repeat my previous statements in which the rough he goat traverses the whole earth from the West representing a nation a lot further away than is Greece from Persia? And do I have to repeat that the he goat not touching the ground to annihilate Persia indicates the he goats notable air force?

Do you recollect how I informed you previously about Hell and Death under the fourth seal also appears in Isaiah 28?

Take a look at the verses in Isaiah 28:18-20 and see that what flies overhead by day and by night taking the lives of Judeans is an air force, with their Northern to Southern borders, and their Eastern to Southern borders to narrow to find cover from the daily and nightly aerial sorties.

The Lord provides us correlating descriptions in His Word so that the devil's false fabrications can be separated from the truth.

 

 Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. 20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

Back in those days the giant Greek Empire was considered "the whole earth." If you wish to read into that phrase more than was intended, it is your choice.  "Not touching the ground" was just the way God chose to show the speed with which Alexander the Great conquered.

Ellicott's Commentary:

 An he goat.—This, according to Daniel 8:21, means the Greek empire, the large horn being the first king, or Alexander the Great. It may be remarked that the goat and the ram form the same contrast as the panther and the bear. Matchless activity is contrasted with physical strength and brutal fierceness.

Touched not the ground.—An exact prediction of the early conquests of Alexander, all whose movements were characterised by marvellous rapidity. This is expressed by “the wings of a fowl” (Daniel 7:6).

Benson Commentary:

As I was considering, behold, a he-goat, &c. — This is interpreted, Daniel 8:21, to be the king, or kingdom, of Grecia.

 This he-goat came from the west; and who is ignorant that Europe lies westward of Asia? He came on the face of the whole earth, carrying every thing before him in all the three parts of the world then known; and he touched not the ground — His marches were so swift, and his conquests so rapid, that he might be said, in a manner, to fly over the ground without touching it. For the same reason, the same empire, in the former vision, was likened to a leopard, which is a swift, nimble animal; and, to denote the greater quickness and impetuosity, to a leopard with four wings.” “He flew,” says Dean Prideaux, “with victory, swifter than others can travel; often with his horse pursuing his enemies upon the spur whole days and nights; and sometimes making long marches for several days one after the other, as once he did in pursuit of Darius, of near forty miles a day, for eleven days together. So that, by the speed of his marches, he came upon his enemies before they were aware of him, and conquered them before they could be in a posture to resist him.” The goat had a notable horn between his eyes — “This horn, says the angel, is the first king, or kingdom, of the Greeks in Asia, which was erected by Alexander the Great,

Barne's Notes:

Behold, an he-goat came from the west - In Daniel 8:21, this is called the "rough-goat," There can be no doubt as to the application of this, for in Daniel 8:21 it is expressly said that it was "the king of Grecia." The power represented is that of Greece when it was consolidated under Alexander the Great, and when he went forth to the subjugation of this vast Persian empire. 

On the face of the whole earth - He seemed to move over the whole world - well representing the movements of Alexander, who conquered the known world, and who is said to have wept because there were no other worlds to conquer.

And touched not the ground - Margin, none touched him in the earth. The translation in the text, however, is more correct than that in the margin. He seemed to bound along as if he did not touch the ground - denoting the rapidity of his movements and conquests.

JFB Commentary:

notable horn—Alexander. "Touched not … ground," implies the incredible swiftness of his conquests; he overran the world in less than twelve years. The he-goat answers to the leopard (Da 7:6).

Matthew Poole's Commentary:

An he-goat; Alexander the Great, king of Macedonia and all Greece, called a he-goat because the Greeks were called Ægeans, as was their sea, that country and its islands abounding in goats, as the word signifies, goatish. The word

On the face of the whole earth, i.e. in that part of Asia where he opposed Xerxes, and overran all the Eastern empire.

Touched not the ground; therefore called a

leopard with wings, for he conquered with incredible swiftness in a short time, for in six years’ space he overcame the Medes and Persians, Babylon, Egypt, and all the countries round far and near; as if he had but travelled over them, he so came, saw, and overcame them.

A notable horn between his eyes: this was Alexander the Great, the western emperor.

Gill's Commentary:

behold, an he goat came from the west; which is interpreted of the king or kingdom of Grecia, which lay to the west of Persia; and a kingdom may be said to do what one of its kings did; particularly Alexander, king of Macedon, in Greece, who, with the Grecian army under him, marched from thence to fight the king of Persia; 

On the face of the whole earth; all that lay between Greece and Persia, all Asia; yea, all the whole world, at least as Alexander thought, who wept because there was not another world to conquer:

And touched not the ground; as he went; he seemed rather to fly in the air than to walk upon the earth; with such swiftness did Alexander run over the world, and make his conquests: in six or eight years time he conquered the kingdom of the Medes and Persians, Babylon, Egypt, and all the neighbouring nations; and afar off, Greece, Thrace, Illyricum, and even the greatest part of the then known world: hence the third or Grecian monarchy under him is said to be like a leopard, with four wings of a fowl on its back (s); see Gill on Daniel 7:6 he conquered countries as soon almost as another could have travelled over them; in his marches he was swift and indefatigable.

And the goat had a notable horn between his eyes; or, "a horn of vision": which in Daniel 8:21 is interpreted of the first king of Greece, that is, when it became a monarchy; who was Alexander the great;

Clarke's Commentary:

Behold, a he-goat - This was Alexander the Great; and a goat was a very proper symbol of the Grecian or Macedonian people.

 

Came from the west - Europe lies westward of Asia.

On the face of the whole earth - Carrying every thing before him.

Touched not the ground - Seemed to fly from conquest to conquest. By the time Alexander was thirty years of age he had conquered all Asia: and, because of the rapidity of his conquests, he is represented as a leopard with four wings, in the preceding vision.

Gaebelein's Annotated Bible

The he-goat with a notable horn is the Graeco- Macedonian monarchy and the notable horn is Alexander the Great. In 334 B. C., Alexander leaped like a swift he-goat across the Hellespont and fought his successful battles, then pushed on to the banks of the Indus and the Nile and then onward to Shushan. The great battles of the Granicus, Issus and Arbella were fought, and he stamped the power of Persia and its King, Darius Codomannus, to the ground. He conquered rapidly Syria, Phoenicia, Cyprus, Tyre, Gaza, Egypt, Babylonia, Persia. In 329 he conquered Bactria, crossed the Oxus and Jaxaitis and defeated the Scythians. And thus he stamped upon the ram after having broken its horns. But when the he goat had waxed very great, the great horn was broken. This predicted the early and sudden death of Alexander the Great

 

Then four notable ones sprang up in the place of the broken horn. This too has been fulfilled, for the empire of Alexander was divided into four parts. Four of the great generals of Alexander made the division namely, Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus and Ptolemy. The four great divisions were, Syria, Egypt, Macedonia and Asia Minor.

Then a little horn appeared out of one of these divisions; it sprung up out of Syria. This little horn is of course not the little horn mentioned in the previous chapter, for the little horn in Daniel 7:1-28 has its place in connection with the fourth beast (Rome), while this one comes from a division of the third beast, the Graeco-Macedonian monarchy.

History does not leave us in doubt of how and when this great prophetic vision was fulfilled. This little horn is the eighth king of the Seleucid dynasty. He is known by the name of Antiochus Epiphanes; after his wild and wicked deeds he was called Epiphanes, the madman. Long before he invaded the pleasant land (Israel’s land), Daniel saw what he would do. He conquered Jerusalem. He took away the daily sacrifice in the temple and offered a swine and swine’s blood upon the altar. He introduced idol worship, devastated the whole land and killed some 100,000 Jews.

In Daniel 8:13-14 is an angelic conversation. The 2,300 days (literal days) cover just about the period of time during which Antiochus did his wicked deeds. When they were ended Judas Maccabaeus cleansed the sanctuary about December 25, 165 B.C.

We believe these 2,300 days are therefore literal days and have found their literal fulfillment in the dreadful days of this wicked king from the north. There is no other meaning attached to these days and the foolish speculations that these days are years, etc., lacks scriptural foundation altogether. Such views and fanciful interpretations bring the study of prophecy into disrepute.

Haydock Commentary:

A he-goat. The empire of the Greeks, or Macedonians. --- He touched not the ground. He conquered all before him with so much rapidity, that he seemed rather to fly than to walk upon the earth. --- A notable horn. Alexander the great. (Challoner) --- He succeeded his father when only twenty years old, and the next year was chosen generalissimo of the Greeks against Persia, which he invaded at the head of 30,000 foot and 4,000 horses, having only seventy talents of silver and provisions for one month. With this he attacked the most flourishing empire, and conquered it in less than four years' time, when Darius was slain in the year 3674 [326 B.C.]. Alexander survived only six years and ten months, yet subdued so many nations that it is almost incredible that he should have travelled over them. He is the belly of brass and the leopard, 

 

If you choose to disagree with all these, of course you can. But these commentaries show us what the general thought of these scriptures has been over the years. I certainly have not written a commentary of the entire bible, and I doubt you have. Therefore I have great respect for these men. However, I understand, they are only men and so are fallible. Here I am in agreement with them.