Divorce

[Justin Adams]

1 minute ago, Wesley L said:

Our difference is in logical thinking. 

Agreed. Just blast away with the scripture shotgun and hope you hit something. Logic never seems to occur. 

[Novus]

14 hours ago, Behold said:

So, your verse, is not talking to the Born again, who have and ARE the Righteousness of Christ.    It is talking to that group that He is preaching to, who are not saved.

Hebrews 10:26  - For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Here the author includes himself (a believer). Also, he is writing to other believers. Note the word "we". Therefore, believers can sin?

[Novus]

17 hours ago, Wesley L said:

To begin with, there is no more SIN, if you are a Born Again Christian.   This is because Jesus bore them and became them, on the CROSS, and so, that was all your sin, being JUDGED when Jesus died for them..

Hebrews 10:26 - For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

I seem to have misquoted Wesley L here. Apologies Wesley L and thanks for bringing this to my attention. The original quote was taken from Behold so my reply (Hebrews 10:26) was in response to said quote. A lot of nice back and forth discussions here - so just got a bit mixed up in the mis-quote (sorry Wesley L and thanks).

Edited April 17, 2020 by Novus

[Worship Warriors]

4 minutes ago, Novus said:

Hebrews 10:26 - For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Also

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins,  he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

Edited April 17, 2020 by Worship Warriors

[Behold]

8 hours ago, Wesley L said:

You clearly didn’t get or didnt want to get or don’t see the point i was making about that the law can’t judge.

So, it is your belief that when a christian hits someone in the face because of anger, there is no sin.
When a christian don’t fully pay his taxes, there is no sin.
When a christian tells a lie, there is no sin?
Tell that to the judge, which is NOT the law. You mix up the law with the judge.

What is harmfull about teaching that when you sin, there is sin?

Sometimes there  can be different understanding of scripture, while both staying true to the Word. Like rapture, end time prophecies. But what you are teaching is not in that category. Certainly, i understand you think the same way of what i am saying.
Our difference is not scriptural understanding, but our difference is in logical thinking. 

Looking forward to how other brothers and sisters say about this issue.

 A Born Again Christian can't sin.  This is because you are not your body.  You are the "in Christ" redeemed Spirit, that is in Union with God.

Its that part of you that is "seated in heavenly placed IN Christ", right NOW. = That is the REAL Born Again You.

So, let me ask you a question, then i'll teach more... ok? 

Can Jesus sin?  Is Jesus a sinner?   

Of course He's not.   And your NT tells you that "as Jesus IS....so are the BORN AGAIN.......IN THIS WORLD".

We are and have the exact same RIGHTEOUSNESS AS Christ, as that is the  eternal effect of "justification by FAITH", "the Gift of Righteousness".  And the problem most Christians have is that they don't understand their Eternal STATUS.  They have a slight conception of "Son of God", that they are one, but actually have no idea what this actually means.    They have not been taught anything that really matters by their denomination, or their pastor.....and so they run around confessing sin, worrying about losing salvation, trying to keep themselves saved, instead of obtaining and then living inside the Knowledge of the Grace of God and what it has done for them.= What it has caused them to BECOME in God's perspective thru the blood of Jesus as their NEW BIRTH.

Wesley L .....I think its this idea of the word "SIN" that is tripping you up.   Now....understand......that word can only be used against an unbeliever, who is under the Law, as its only the Law that can judge and then define you, as a "sinner"....

So, when that Law & Commandments can't judge you any more, then you can't be defined by them, anymore.   As they hve no more authority to NAME YOU or Define you, as a "sinner"

What you are thinking im teaching, is that a Christian can't do any bad deeds, or commit any acts that would be  formally known as "SIN".....   and sure they can, but they can't be defined by that word anymore because Jesus became their sin.....and was JUDGED FOR THEM ALL.....= Sin is Gone.  And the title "sin" is gone, because the Law has been revoked and abolished regarding its dominion over a believer.   The New Testament replaced the Old Covenant.

A believer is sinless, because they have the "righteousness of Christ" as THEIR ETERNAL Righteousness.

Remember, God had to come here, as a Human, and live a sinless life to then give the eternal fruit of this life and death as=  OUR Redemption. That is the "Cross".  Thats what it means and what it does.  To "preach the Cross" is to define the Blood Atonement.

So, we are "made righteous" by what Christ accomplished on the Cross.  Therefore,  God only sees a born again person as "the righteousness of Christ".   To be "In Christ" is to be in union with His Righteousness and His Spirit.

How could a born again person be any less righteous then Christ, if you are "IN CHRIST".    See it?

Now, when a born again person, lies, cheats, murders, lusts, steals...whatever...... then because  "you the born again are not under the law, but under GRACE", then those deeds, are not anymore defined by the Law.....So, they are not known or titled as "sin", anymore......... Paul teaches us that the NEW TERM, and the true term, is..... "works of the flesh".

So, these same deeds, committed by a unbeliever who is under the law, are defined by the law as SIN... But when the born again do these same deeds, the "you are under GRACE", defines these deeds as "works of the Flesh".

Galatians 5:19....

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these : Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

²⁰ Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

²¹ Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings "

Edited April 17, 2020 by Behold

[Behold]

4 hours ago, Novus said:

Hebrews 10:26  - For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Here the author includes himself (a believer). Also, he is writing to other believers. Note the word "we". Therefore, believers can sin?

 

In the Epistle to the Hebrews, there are  unsaved Christ rejecting Hebrews, who are the "we" in that verse.   Paul who is preaching the Gospel to them, is using a Preaching device that any Leader, Preacher, will use when talking to a group when they are using the word "WE", as a corporal device.

Its like this....>If i was teaching the Worthy members in a room, as a group, i would call us all "we", when i telling YOU that you that you have to stop sinning".

But that does not mean im sinning, and it does not mean that "sin" is what you are doing, when its not, as its just works of the Flesh.

So, the WE, in that verse that is being Used, is not explaining that the Preacher is doing the deed.  He is only using that term corporally,  as i would if im preaching to a group of lost people,  and i say...>"listen, we can't say that we dont have any sin"........and i certainly know that I dont, as im The righteousness of Christ....but they do have sin....so, i say "we", as that is how you talk corporally to a group, when you preach.

So, the verse says....their "remaineth" no more sacrifice", is simply the Apostle Paul teaching....>>"Listen, if you reject the Blood of Jesus...if you reject the offer to be saved...If you reject your Messiah", then there is no other way for you to come to God, as you have rejected the only OFFER available to save you.     You have "trod underfoot the Grace of God, which is the blood of Christ".. = Christ rejection, and that is what those unsaved HEBREWS are doing in that verse, and also this verse is shown in Acts 28, the last 10 verses, obo.

Study.

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Behold

[Novus]

3 hours ago, Behold said:

He is only using that term corporally,  as i would if im preaching to a group of lost people,  and i say...>"listen, we can't say that we dont have any sin"........and i certainly know that I dont, as im The righteousness of Christ....but they do have sin....so, i say "we", as that is how you talk corporally to a group, when you preach.

Hi Behold. I can see where you are coming from. It is one way of looking at the "we" here. I am going to respectfully disagree however. The writer of Hebrews is warning believers not to commit apostasy by seeking refuge in synagogues in order to avoid persecution (the reason for writing the letter). In order to be accepted into a synagogue, a Jewish believer would have to renounce Jesus as the Christ and Lord. So The writer of Hebrews, it seems, was addressing believers,  not unbelievers. He was warning them to remain faithful. Through Hebrews,  that warning comes to us in our present day and age...believers to remain faithful. So the "we", seems to point to believers facing a similar temptation. I can see where you are coming from...but will have to respectfully disagree on the intepretation you're presenting. 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Novus

[Refresher]

On 4/16/2020 at 9:21 PM, Behold said:

Reader,

To begin with, there is no more SIN, if you are a Born Again Christian.   This is because Jesus bore them and became them, on the CROSS, and so, that was all your sin, being JUDGED when Jesus died for them..   Next, "Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE of the LAW".... And this simply means that the Law and Commandments have no more authority to judge you as anything, much less a "sinner".   Jesus said in Matthew 28:18.  that "all power and authority is given to ME"...so, there goes the Laws power to Judge you, that Jesus removed by His Blood and Death.

So, what is even more...... In Romans 4:8 .... we are told that God does not charge any of our deeds to us that use to be considered as sinning.....

And then, Paul who is the one who is teaching all this "justification by faith" Doctrine, explains that what use to be defined by the Law as "sin" , can't be anymore, as the Law has no more authorithy to judge you as a sinner.    So, what is "sin" now renamed ??????? , now that we are "no longer under the law but under GRACE".

Its called "works of the FLESH".....and here is the list..... 

Galatians 5:19-21 

19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH  are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings,."

Notice that before a person is born again, all those were titled  SIN......and that is because you were under the LAW's authority and dominion  BEFORE you were born again....And now that "" you are not under the law but under Grace""" , these same deeds are NOW redefined by GRACE=  thru the blood of Jesus's forgiveness as "works of the flesh".

------------------

So Refresher...., i dont think any real Believer would argue that we are not to try live a lifestyle that reflects God holiness.

The reality is, i know of no preacher or teacher who would teach that now that you are born again, you can live like the devil.  As a matter of fact, it's the Grace of God that produces the holy life... It does not produce the unholy life..  So, the more a person is able to leave their "self saving" ideas, and begin to completely trust in God to keep them saved thru the blood of Jesus, the more they will come out from under the bondage to the Law, that is in their MINDS.....   and they will be more holy for it.

It is actually the power of the Law that causes you to sin more......So, once you are born again, then the more you understand  God's  GRACE , the less you will sin.   And thats a fact.

The preaching of the Cross, is the teaching of the Grace of God that redeems you from your sin....and its the previous power of the Law that had dominion over you, that was causing you to sin.

Reader, if you follow me here, and you are hearing me, spiritually, then what im giving you will break chains of sin.  See, the Grace of God is the Freedom from sin that Jesus has provided, and not just the payment for it..   So, when you find someone , a church, a teacher, a commentary, that is giving God and Christ all the credit for saving you and keeping you saved, they are actually giving you the keys to live the most Holy Lifestyle that you can possibly ever live..

The Law, and Commandments, if you try to keep them, by self effort, will inflame your desire to sin.     But the Grace of God, frees you from that "strength of sin" which is found by trying to keep the Law..... God's Grace breaks the chain of sinning..  While legalism, the "self effort" Gospel, will cause you to sin more, and never have Peace, and never find a truly close personal relationship with God thru Christ.

Behold, I am reposting my below message as we discussed referring to the first replied Post by Mr. Novus that caused you to argue with him. I am sorry to say Behold, but your above long messages are very far already.

Just this way Behold as you are my Brother in Christ, let's be a good steward on how to present the Grace of God that it should be balanced and  it will never be misused and abused for it is also our accountability to God the Father...I hope the teaching of the  Covenant of Grace message that we received are solid and genuine. 

God bless you Brother

 

I am totally agree with you Behold …to your explanation about the salvation, the grace of God, the mercy of God, the blood of Jesus Christ and His sufferings, all of these are true. And these are the truth before we received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior..and yes we were forgiven already the moment that we received salvation.

I am citing about our  life already with Jesus Christ and God is our Father... in short we are already inside the kingdom of God.…this is what I said >>>>>>>>Be reminded  We need to know that misuse and abuse of grace is not acceptable to God the Father, the bible says, shall we continue to sin so the grace of God may abound? certainly not...yes we are under by the grace of God but we need to understand that grace is not also a license to continue to sin. 

Romans 6 New King James Version (NKJV)

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? ² Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

 

Again Repost:

A good picture here is Mary Magdalene in  John 8:4-11  

⁴ “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery, The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”  They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who, has never sinned throw the first stone!”⁸ Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.  When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman.  Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”  “No, Lord,” she said. And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”

Insights: Jesus said, "Neither do I . Go and sin no more- it means that we were already forgiven from all sins but Go and sin no  more, it means stop committing adultery or fornication.

1 Peter 1:15-16 "  but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

Keywords:  In all conduct.

"Be Imitators of God"  Ephesians 5:1-2 Amplified Bible (AMP)

5 Therefore become imitators of God [copy Him and follow His example], as well-beloved children [imitate their father]; ² and walk continually in love [that is, value one another—practice empathy and compassion, unselfishly seeking the best for others], just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and sacrifice to God [slain for you, so that it became] a sweet fragrance.

Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 

Keywords: the breastplate of righteousness must be put on 24 hours a day.

Conclusion: All above scriptures are under the new covenant or  under the New Testament, so it means we need to live a holy life as well and not to contiue to sin.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Refresher

[Behold]

57 minutes ago, Novus said:

Hi Behold. I can see where you are coming from. It is one way of looking at the "we" here. I am going to respectfully disagree however. The writer of Hebrews is warning believers not to commit apostasy by seeking refuge in synagogues in order to avoid persecution (the reason for writing the letter). In order to be accepted into a synagogue, a Jewish believer would have to renounce Jesus as the Christ and Lord. So The writer of Hebrews, it seems, was addressing believers,  not unbelievers. He was warning them to remain faithful. Through Hebrews,  that warning comes to us in our present day and age...believers to remain faithful. So the "we", seems to point to believers facing a similar temptation. I can see where you are coming from...but will have to respectfully disagree on the intepretation you're presenting. 

I'm not certain what commentary, Book of Mormon?  JW material ????? you are using, but the writer can't possibly know any of that 2000 Years after this event was recorded in a NT.

Peter once did something like you are describing, being afraid of the Jews, so he would not sit with Gentile Believers, and Paul scolded him violently and openly for this type of behavior.

Listen, there is no mainline denomination that has ever taught anything as wild as what you just wrote.   You can't even use a New Testament to prove what you just said.   You are teaching from a commentary or a book that is related to your denomination and its not in agreement with seemingly anything that is related to the Cross, Justification by Faith, The Gift of Salvation, the Grace of God...

Also, Paul understands that you can't lose your salvation, so, he would not be trying to prevent something that isn't possible, Novus .

And the idea of "remaining faithful" so that you keep yourself saved, vs the Blood of Jesus keeping you saved, is just one more standard Legalist idea, along with apostasy as a way to lose salvation.

Do you realize that you are very decided that so many things can cause YOU to lose your salvation, yet none of it can?

Novus, you can't lose what you didn't cause.

What will you do if God gives you Light and you realize that your entire belief system is actually in opposition to the Grace of God?

The Apostle Paul who is talking to these unsaved Hebrews, is preaching very strongly, and he is preaching the Gospel.  And how do you know?  Because he references the Blood of Jesus, etc.   So, he's preaching the Cross to these Christ haters, and the warning is extreme he is giving them.  He is comparing them to the very one's who screamed  "give us Barabbas"...and those who took Christ into an illegal trial in the middle of the night to hide their malicious deed.

Paul would not need to preach the Gospel to any group who is already born again...     as why would he do it?  To get them born again twice?     Not quite.

And he certainly knows that you can walk away from a religion, but you can't walk away from being Born again.  Paul knows that the "new birth" is an eternal situation, and these Hebrews do not have it. They are Christ rejectors, just like those who Stoned Paul to death, and also Stephen.   This Hebrews  incident is repeated in Act 28, the last 10 verses..  

Edited April 17, 2020 by Behold

[Refresher]

23 hours ago, Behold said:

Yes, i know the verse.

You dont know the context of the verse.   You also think that 1 John 1:9 is written to Christians, and they are not forgiven of their sin unless they confess them....

So, i know your theology, ok. ???     I knew you have some standing issues with "justification by faith".

Here is why your verse is not talking to the Born again.  But its talking to unsaved jews, and they are being "Preached" the Gospel.     Understand that "we", in the verse,  is not referring to a Redeemed Apostle, who has "the righteousness of Christ", as HIS OWN... So, he would be lying about himself, if that word "we" was being used personally, vs corporally.  See, sometimes, the bible uses a concept as a word, or a verse as a concept.  Like when Paul says....'' I become ALL THINGS to ALL MEN, that i might by all means, save a few"..

Now look at how a new christian or an unskilled in the word believer would read that verse.......they would think....."wait, is paul saying that he becomes a sinner like all those he is trying to save"?    And notice the verse.... "that i might save a few, by all means".     So, obviously "all means" is not everything, such as sinning, yet it says ALL, doesn't it.   Also, Paul knows that he can't save anyone.  He can only preach the cross and then God does the SAVING......Jesus is the Savior...>yet the verse says that I Paul might SAVE SOME.    But Paul can't save a Fly . Is Paul the Savior ?????.... So, do you see?   Sometimes a verse has to be "rightly divided" and "spiritually discerned".... or you make a mess of the verse and of your own understanding and Theology...

So, "if we say we have not sinned" can't be talking to the born again, because the born again, are not under the Law.... they are under Grace.  And also, if you are born again,  YOU HAVE " the righteousness of Christ"....That is who you are, and what you have BECOME.  You have no sin because you are not a sinner..  And that is why you are "IN CHRIST:... So, there is no "sin" on you, after Christ bore and died for it after He became your sin...on the Cross.

When you were unsaved the Law could judge you as SINNER...but after you are born again, the GRACE OF GOD has eternally redeemed you from the Law's authority to label you as having sin, or being a sinner.  This is the effect of "justification by faith", and. "The Gift of Righteousness".

Ok?

So, your verse, is not talking to the Born again, who have and ARE the Righteousness of Christ.    It is talking to that group that He is preaching to, who are not saved.

Behold, again I will repost this to you.

We need to know that misuse and abuse of grace is not acceptable to God the Father, the bible says, shall we continue to sin so the grace of God may abound? certainly not...yes we are under by the grace of God but we need to understand that grace is not also a license to continue to sin. 

Romans 6 New King James Version (NKJV)

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? ² Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?