Those who were caught up to the cloud to be with the Lord FOREVER will not be overcome by antichrist, unless you are left behind

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Okay, I should have wrote Jesus died.    But the point being, Jesus continued to exist after he died.

Shalom, douggg.

Thank you! Of course Yeshua` continued to exist after He died! However, He did so as a dead person, sleeping in Sh'owl (the Grave). However, it's important to read His words in prophecy:

Psalm 16:8-11 (KJV)

8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul (Hebrew: lo' ta`azoV nafshiy = "not you-will-leave/forsake/loose my air-breather") in hell (Hebrew: lish'owl = "to-[the]-grave"); neither wilt thou suffer (Hebrew: lo' titteen = "not you-will-allow") thine Holy One to see corruption (Hebrew: chaciydkhaa lir'owt shaachat = "your-covenanted-One to-see decay").
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

 

1 hour ago, douggg said:

That position is in a huge conflict with what the bible says.      

Correction: My position is in a huge conflict with what YOUR THEOLOGY says! It fits just fine with what the Bible says!

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Are you saying Jesus did not continue to exist during those three days his body was in the tomb?

You continue to speak about the resurrection.    But the resurrection applies to the redemption of the body.

No, I'm saying that you can't divorce the "real you" from your body! You ARE a living, breathing body - a living "soul!" When you die, you are no longer living or breathing, and they put you in the ground!

In the same way, the resurrection - the redemption of the body - is the redemption of YOU! God recreates you, and you are brought back to life! You shall become a living, breathing body - a living "soul" - once again!

That's what happened to Yeshua` as well! He came back to life before HE could see decay!

[douggg]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, I'm saying that you can't divorce the "real you" from your body! You ARE a living, breathing body - a living "soul!" When you die, you are no longer living or breathing, and they put you in the ground!

2 Samuel 12:23 23But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Thank you! Of course Yeshua` continued to exist after He died! However, He did so as a dead person, sleeping in Sh'owl (the Grave). However, it's important to read His words in prophecy:

Jesus is God.   God neither slumbers nor sleeps.     

 

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, douggg said:

2 Samuel 12:23 23But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

Shalom, douggg.

Yes, and now David is with his little son in death. When the two are conscious again in the Resurrection, they SHALL be together again.

9 hours ago, douggg said:

Jesus is God.   God neither slumbers nor sleeps.

While I believe that the same thing can be said of Yeshua`, that is, "He neither slumbers nor sleeps," Jesus is NEVER called "God" in Scripture. Instead, He is sometimes called "the Son of God." He hasn't been called "God" since He was the Word before He became flesh. That was a VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION to Yeshua` Himself! "God" was His Father! And, here's what He thought about His relationship with His Father:

John 5:2-30 (KJV)

2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. 5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him,

"Wilt thou be made whole?"

7 The impotent man answered him,

"Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me."

8 Jesus saith unto him,

"Rise, take up thy bed, and walk."

9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath. 10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured,

"It is the sabbath day! It is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed!" 

11 He answered them,

"He that made me whole, the same said unto me, 'Take up thy bed, and walk.'"

12 Then asked they him,

"What man is that which said unto thee, 'Take up thy bed, and walk'?"

13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him,

"Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee!" 

15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them,

"My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

At NO TIME did He actually equate Himself with God His Father, but He showed a SUBMISSIVENESS to His Father that was unparalleled by anyone else!

[Marilyn C]

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 4:33 PM, R. Hartono said:

The wise virgins shall be saved alive and shall ever be with the Lord.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

While on the earth the foolish virgins left behind shall be overcome by the beast :

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So This explains there are two groups of people in heaven at the time of Great Tribulation :

1. The Great Multitude of 1 Thes 4:16 in living BODIES.

2. The SOULS under the Altar of the dead martyrs overcome by antichrist in Rev 13:7, they were beheaded in the Great Tribulation. These souls came one by one until their number is accomplished.

R. Hartono,

You are mixing up what Jesus has revealed and what He had NOT.

`But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.` (1 Cor. 2: 7 & 8)

There we see that the revelation of Christ dying and subsequently making a new group called the Body of Christ. This revelation was given to the Apostle Paul and not the 12 disciples. Remember Peter tried to get the Gentiles to act like Jews. (Gal. 2: 11 - 15)

Thus speaking about the 10 virgins has NOTHING to do with the Body of Christ and everything to do with Israel the people Jesus was speaking to.

You are confusing scriptures.

[R. Hartono]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

 

Thus speaking about the 10 virgins has NOTHING to do with the Body of Christ and everything to do with Israel the people Jesus was speaking to.

You are confusing scriptures.

The body of Christ consists of Jews n gentiles.

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

The body of Christ consists of Jews n gentiles.

I agree the Body of Christ is made up of both Jews and Gentiles. However when Jesus was on earth He was speaking to the people of Israel and any Gentiles that came in to Israel would be part of Israel. There was only Israel and the Gentiles.

Now there as 3 groups - the Body of Christ, Israel & the Gentiles (nations).

[OneLight]

@Marilyn C - perhaps it would be less confusing if you wrote unbelieving Israelite's and unbelieving Gentiles?

[Marilyn C]

38 minutes ago, OneLight said:

@Marilyn C - perhaps it would be less confusing if you wrote unbelieving Israelite's and unbelieving Gentiles?

Thanks OneLight. Good point and would stop confusion.

[douggg]

On 5/13/2020 at 10:00 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, douggg.

At NO TIME did He actually equate Himself with God His Father, but He showed a SUBMISSIVENESS to His Father that was unparalleled by anyone else!

Jesus said directly to John, that He is the Almighty.

 

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

 

Jesus created this world (Alpha) and He will destroy it (Omega) - and create new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

David was not saying that he was going to his son in to a non-existant state which you calling "in death", when he died.     But to paradise - with totlal awareness of existance.      But no longer attached to, nor aware, of things going on this world.

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by douggg

[Retrobyter]

On 5/16/2020 at 12:29 AM, douggg said:

Jesus said directly to John, that He is the Almighty.

Revelation 1:8-11

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Jesus created this world (Alpha) and He will destroy it (Omega) - and create new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21

...

Shalom, douggg.

First, thank you for a most thoughtful argument. You said it well, and you provided a passage of Scripture to support your statement. I took some liberties with your post merely to add the reference and clean up white space.

Now, I wish you had added the ENTIRE passage but you only quoted the section that began and finished with the words "Alpha and Omega," which I can only assume may have been your search point. Let's go back and look at the entire context:

(I am NEVER opposed to doing this! This is how we learn and this is how we make progress! I'm HUMAN, and as long as I'm alive, I will ever learn and adapt to what I learn. I don't believe that I'll be any different in the future.)

Revelation 1:1-20 (KJV)

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he (GOD) sent and signified it by his angel (Greek: dia tou aggelou autou = "through the messenger of-Him") unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God (God's Message), and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: 

Grace be unto you, and peace, from him (GOD) which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Let's stop here a moment and think. Let's get the full picture of what is happening. 

First, we have the title of this book, this prophecy, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ," or in Greek (since that's all we have to go on, although it may have originally been written in Aramaic) transliterated, "Apokalupsis Ieesou Christou." This word, Apokalupsis, is the noun form of the verb apokaluptoo which in turn means "I uncover; reveal; disclose; bring to light." It comes from the two words, apo, meaning "away from," and "kaluptoo," meaning "I cover; hide; conceal; veil; envelop." In a literal mind, it means to put it in a basket and put a lid on the basket. Adding the preposition apo means to take away the lid from the basket, revealing what is inside the basket. This gives us the verb, apokaluptoo, and then making it into a noun for English is simply to make it a gerund by adding the suffix "-ing." So, it is the "UNCOVERINGof Jesus Christ." The Greek transliteration of Yeshua`s name and the translation of His title, "Mashiyach," meaning "(God's) Anointed One (to be King)," since "Christos" also means "Anointed One," are both in the genitive case, which is why the word "of" was added, showing possession.

So, what we have is a hierarchy, if you will. God (the Father) gave this Revelation to Yeshua` the Messiah, and it is His Revelation. Then, He gave it to His messenger (which may be the same as Yeshua`); then, Messiah Yeshua`s Revelation was passed on to Yochanan (John), who in turn passed the Revelation on to the seven congregations in Asia Minor which today is known as Turkey.

8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending," saith the Lord,
"which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, 

"I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me,

"Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 

Notice that this introduction is different than verses 8 and 11. God, Yeshua`s Father, is the One who "is, was, and is to come." Yeshua` Himself is the One who "lives, was dead, and is alive for evermore." God, Yeshua`s Father, has NEVER"been dead."

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels (messengers) of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

Please understand this: The two Persons are NOT the same Person in Scripture!

I should also have added that Yeshua` is NOT the "END of this world" He's the END of SIN and its consequences of DEATH and DECAY!

Edited May 19, 2020 by Retrobyter
to add a thought