Those who were caught up to the cloud to be with the Lord FOREVER will not be overcome by antichrist, unless you are left behind

[missmuffet]

Many have different views on when the rapture of the Church will occur. Why don't we just wait and see rather than be divided. Time will tell. 

[Revelation Man]

23 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

You could say the store was robbed, but you have no proof. That's the same thing the pre-trib doctrine does, they make assumptions that are not in the Bible.

I have the Holy Spirit, nothing you can say can persuade me brother, you can take that to the bank. The Pharisees would still be asking for proof if they were 2000 years old today. That means zilch in reality. 

I show the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Rapture in Rev. chapters 4 and 5.........IGNORED. 

I show the Church returning with Jesus in Rev. 19....................................................IGNORED.

I show the Jewish Wedding Pattern is 7 years and everything Jesus promised the Church happens to a Jewish Bride over 7 days {Years}........IGNORED.

I show Paul stating the Thessalonians are going to DEPART before God's Wrath and the Anti-Christ come on the scene....................................IGNORED.

I show how the Saints who are Martyrs in Seal 5 can't be Jews as per Rev. 12:17, the REMNANT CHURCH can only mean the Gentile Church...IGNORED. 

Its like I stated, people see what they want to see, what they have been taught to see by the things that they have learned. God doesn't lead us via men's teachings, He leads us via the Holy Spirit. Hearing men is where the Pharisees went off track. Jesus told Nicodemus he was ALMOST able to see the truth. 

When we get to Heaven, you will then and only then (it seems) see that the erroneous Rapture understanding you guys have was a miscalculation. 

[douggg]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The "soul" is the "breathing creature." Strong's Concordance aside, we see this definition in the very creation of the Man (Hebrew: haAadaam).

After a person becomes a breathing creature, (which you are not considering as a body, inner man, spirit,  born into this world),  a "living" soul, what happens to that soul once the person commits a sin?  Food for thought.

Further consideration concerning are my diagrams, biblical? 

When Jesus died on the cross,

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The ghost is the inner man, the soul, which is where the spirit resides.    Just like I show on my diagrams.       They laid Jesus' body in the tomb.      But Jesus continued to exist apart from his body, did he not?     As all men do.      Which I show on my diagrams.

Salvation is redemption of the soul - which takes place when a person is born again.   And then later the redemption of the body - which takes place either by resurrection, or by rapture if a Christian is alive at that time.

___________________________________________________________________________

In Genesis, with the creation of the "first" man,  the formed dust body, became a completed living soul - because God breathed a spirit into him, which is the center of life in any person.

The first man had a body, a inner being the soul, and a spirit - a completed living soul.   Completed is not in the words of the bible, but is implied.    And can be concluded by Jesus's words on the cross in Luke 23:46

When we enter this world, born into it, we are those same three components.

 So it looks like my diagrams are biblical after all.

Edited May 1, 2020 by douggg

[ENOCH2010]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I have the Holy Spirit, nothing you can say can persuade me brother, you can take that to the bank. The Pharisees would still be asking for proof if they were 2000 years old today. That means zilch in reality. 

I show the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Rapture in Rev. chapters 4 and 5.........IGNORED. 

I show the Church returning with Jesus in Rev. 19....................................................IGNORED.

I show the Jewish Wedding Pattern is 7 years and everything Jesus promised the Church happens to a Jewish Bride over 7 days {Years}........IGNORED.

I show Paul stating the Thessalonians are going to DEPART before God's Wrath and the Anti-Christ come on the scene....................................IGNORED.

I show how the Saints who are Martyrs in Seal 5 can't be Jews as per Rev. 12:17, the REMNANT CHURCH can only mean the Gentile Church...IGNORED. 

Its like I stated, people see what they want to see, what they have been taught to see by the things that they have learned. God doesn't lead us via men's teachings, He leads us via the Holy Spirit. Hearing men is where the Pharisees went off track. Jesus told Nicodemus he was ALMOST able to see the truth. 

When we get to Heaven, you will then and only then (it seems) see that the erroneous Rapture understanding you guys have was a miscalculation. 

All the things you say you show are assumptions on your part, I know this because I was once a pre-tribber also, until I started trying to prove the pre-trib doctrine true. What I found in The Bible is not what the pre-trib doctrine teaches. The more I searched the Bible, what I found was, the pre-trib doctrine is really just a bunch of hope and assumptions.

Edited May 1, 2020 by ENOCH2010

[douggg]

2 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

All the things you say you show are assumptions on your part, I know this because I was once a pre-tribber also, until I started trying to prove the pre-trib doctrine true. What I found in The Bible is not what the pre-trib doctrine teaches. The more I searched the Bible, what I found was, the pre-trib doctrine is really just a bunch of hope and assumptions.

Take a look at the anytime rapture view, a term I first started calling the view I have.     It is the latest revision to the classical rapture views to finally get it right.

The anytime rapture view corrects a few of the flaws in the pre-trib view, but doesn't eliminate the possibility the rapture could happen pre-70th week as pre-trbibbers believe - but differs as to the possibility that it may not.       But still takes into account that Christians are not appointed to wrath to take place during the first years of the Day of the Lord.

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I show Paul stating the Thessalonians are going to DEPART before God's Wrath and the Anti-Christ come on the scene....................................IGNORED.

Classic flawed pre-trib logic.   The anytime rapture view fixes the few flaws in the pre-trib view.   But it doesn't contradict that the rapture could possibly take place pre-70th week.    

The man of sin is revealed - means that the person is not the messiah who the Jews and the world will be thinking he is at the time.     It does not mean the person's identity will be unknown pending the transgression of desolation act.      The person will be most well known person in the world at that time as being the perceived messiah.

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by douggg

[R. Hartono]

7 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Many have different views on when the rapture of the Church will occur. Why don't we just wait and see rather than be divided. Time will tell. 

True, Real children of Jesus will b saved whether they believe pre trib rapture or not unless they declare it as deception.

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, douggg said:

...

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The ghost is the inner man, the soul, which is where the spirit resides.    Just like I show on my diagrams.       They laid Jesus' body in the tomb.      But Jesus continued to exist apart from his body, did he not?     As all men do.      Which I show on my diagrams.

...

Shabbat shalom, douggg.

THAT is the question you should be asking YOURSELF based upon what one reads from Genesis 2:7!

Yeshua` (the body) was in the grave for three days and three nights. He was NOT yet with His Father! What did He tell Miryam ("Mary") AFTER His Resurrection?

John 20:14-17 (KJV)

14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her,

"Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou?"

She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him,

"Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away."

16 Jesus saith unto her,

"Mary."  

She turned herself, and saith unto him,

"Rabboni!";

which is to say,

"Master!" 

17 Jesus saith unto her,

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, 'I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.'"

This is why so many have to make Him SOMEWHERE during those three days and three nights! He did NOT go to their supposed "Heaven!" And, for whatever reason, they just CAN'T let Him be dormant in the grave!

So, they make up three things:

1. They misread Yeshua`s parable in Luke 16:

Luke 16:1-31 (KJV)

1 And he said also unto his disciples,

"There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. 2 And he called him, and said unto him,

"'How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.'

3 "Then the steward said within himself,

"'What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. 4 I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.'

5 "So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first,

"'How much owest thou unto my lord?' 

6 "And he said,

"'An hundred (100) measures of oil.'

"And he said unto him,

"'Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty (50).'

7 "Then said he to another,

"'And how much owest thou?'

"And he said,

"'An hundred (100) measures of wheat.'

"And he said unto him,

"'Take thy bill, and write fourscore (80).'

8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. 9 And I say unto you, 'Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when (not 'if'!) ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.'

10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. 11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own? 13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them,

"Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle (hook in a Hebrew letter) of the law to fail.

18 "Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell (Greek: en too hadee = "in the Unseen") he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said,

"'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame!'

25 "But Abraham said,

"'Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.'

27 "Then he said,

"'I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'

29 "Abraham saith unto him,

"'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'

30 "And he said,

"'Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.'

31 "And he said unto him,

"'If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.'"

This is a parable that Yeshua` said to the P'rushiym ("Pharisees"), the "Separatists," to instruct them against their covetousness. What He is telling them is what to expect in THEIR resurrection! Notice that the rich man had his eyes, he had his tongue, and he could feel pain! This rich man was alive again!

2. They say He went to "Hell" because of one verse:

Psalm 16:10 (KJV)

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

which is part of the larger context:

Psalm 16:8-11 (KJV)

8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

However, this verse employs the Hebrew word "sh'owl" meaning "asked (about)," which is reflected in the following translations:

Psalm 16:10 (NKJV)

10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 16:10 (NASB)

 10 For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol;
 Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

Psalm 16:10 (NIV)

10 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
nor will you let your faithful one see decay.

But, the version that probably has this translation the best is ...

Psalm 16:10 (New Living Translation)

10 For you will not leave my soul among the dead
or allow your holy one to rot in the grave.

The Hebrew (transliterated) is this:

10 kiy lo' ta`azoV nafshiy lis'owl
lo' titteen haciydkhaa lir'owt shaachat:

And, Kefa ("Peter") used this verse appropriately in ...

Acts 2:22-35 (KJV)

22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words;

"Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it!

25 "For David speaketh concerning him,

"'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.'

29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,

"'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.' 

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord (Master) and Christ (MESSIAH to become king)."

And, the Greek words so translated as "in hell" in verse 27 is eis hadees (into [the] Unseen). So, a phrase was used to translate what he said that is appropriate to translating a word meaning "to-asked-(about)."

3. They use a verse that doesn't have anything to do with the three days and three nights:

Psalm 68:18 (KJV)

18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

...

35 O God, thou art terrible out of thy holy places: the God of Israel is he that giveth strength and power unto his people. Blessed be God.

This verse has to do with the captives led out of EGYPT at the time of the Exodus! The gifts that YHWH Elohiym received for men (and from men) were all the things they had "borrowed" from the Egyptians from which they built the Tabernacle!

The place upon which He had "ascended on high" was Mount Sinai, from which He AUDIBLY SPOKE to the children of Israel! (They covered their ears in panic and asked that God only speak through Moses.)

Paul quoted this verse and part of what followed to make his statement in Ephesians 4:

Ephesians 4:1-16 (KJV)

1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith,

"When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth (Greek: gee [pronounced "gay"] = "land, soil, dirt")? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

(So, Paul didn't misquote the scripture verse; he skipped over part of the text in that psalm!)

By doing these three things, they have CONCOCTED a FABRICATION in which they imagine a person in Yeshua`s time might live on "somewhere" after his or her death! Go back and re-read Kefa's words in Acts 2!

You said, "As all men do." So, I ask back, "Do they really if Yeshua` didn't during the three days and three nights?"

Edited May 2, 2020 by Retrobyter
to bring it back to douggg's statement.

[douggg]

57 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, douggg.

THAT is the question you should be asking YOURSELF based upon what one reads from Genesis 2:7!

Yeshua` (the body) was in the grave for three days and three nights. He was NOT yet with His Father! What did He tell Miryam ("Mary") AFTER His Resurrection?

That was not the point I was making though.   The point was that Jesus did continue as a living soul.     Jesus also made the point of living souls (after their bodies has returned to dust), when he said (paraphrased) is God not the God of the living, when God says I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The issue is not when a person becomes a living soul, as in the case of Adam, or us as we are born into this world - but whether a person continues as their self, including self awareness, after death of the body.     And the destination.

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by douggg

[ENOCH2010]

10 hours ago, douggg said:

Take a look at the anytime rapture view, a term I first started calling the view I have.     It is the latest revision to the classical rapture views to finally get it right.

The anytime rapture view corrects a few of the flaws in the pre-trib view, but doesn't eliminate the possibility the rapture could happen pre-70th week as pre-trbibbers believe - but differs as to the possibility that it may not.       But still takes into account that Christians are not appointed to wrath to take place during the first years of the Day of the Lord.

 

Extend the blue on over to the second coming and you will have it nailed down, as none of us know when the rapture will happen. That my friend is the truth.