The Mark of the Beast (what it really is explained)

[iamlamad]

35 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Then you cannot also say Christ will or can come tomorrow. Or this week. Or this month. Or this year. Nor the next. Perhaps the temple could be built within a few years due to improvements in modern construction capabilities but that does not change the one simple fact being discussed: when you ask me about my awaiting Jesus' return tomorrow I don't have any eschatological obstacles to him doing so and I can truly be in a state or disposition of eager anticipation because I am not waiting for x, y, or z to first occur. 

You do. 

And because you believe the temple must first be built you yourself have compromised the doctrine of imminence with which you first thought to criticize my position!

 

I, in turn, lovingly think you should look at this and engage it because perhaps you've not previously considered who the Dispensational eschatology compromises imminence. I assume you'd like to reconcile this very real and substantive contradiction. Nothing but love and hope for you. This very real conflict is important because the Dispensationalist teachers must keep its students in a constant state of anticipation that is not truly based on the return of Christ, but the latest prognostication. 

It is a cunning manipulation of Matthew 24:3. Jesus was not actually asked when he was returning. He was asked what would be the signs of his coming (not his actual coming). AND..... he was asked that question specifically in regard to what he'd just said to the Pharisees and then subsequently to his disciples about the Pharisees condemnation and the temple's destruction. So... "What will be the signs of your coming...? and teachers of Dispensational Premillennialism keep a constant report of signs coming out week after week, year after year, decade after decade and none of them ever prove true. The sings are ever coming but Jesus never shows. 

That is not a scriptural view of imminence.  

 

 

Then you cannot also say Christ will or can come tomorrow. Or this week. Or this month. Or this year. Nor the next  OF COURSE I can and I DO. I don't understand where you get this idea from. 

because I am not waiting for x, y, or z to first occur.   Same with all pretribbers.  Not so with posttribbers or prewrathers. You seem to think we are waiting for the temple! NO! We are waiting for JESUS! The temple may well be built in the first year of the 70th week. 

You do.   Only in YOUR MIND! Not in reality.

because you believe the temple must first be built you yourself have compromised the doctrine of imminence with which you first thought to criticize my position!  This is only in your mind, not in reality. it would see YOU have the problem, not pretribbers.  I don't think I have criticized your position: you are free to believe it. God gave each of us a free will. If anything you are criticizing OUR position. Which is ironic, for it is the RIGHT position. Preterists or even partial preterists may find out they are disagreeing with God. As I said before, and I guess you did not get it: the ONLY biblical requirement as to TIMING for the new temple is that it must be finished by just before the midpoint of the week. If Jesus came tonight, the Day of the Lord started tonight, then the 70th week started in 10 days (the days of Awe) there will be plenty of time for the temple to be built and the daily sacrifices to start. 

I assume you'd like to reconcile this very real and substantive contradiction.  Of course you assume wrong. Again, the contradiction is only in your thinking, not in reality and certainly not in my mind. I rejoice in thinking He could come NOW!

Dispensationalist teachers must keep its students in a constant state of anticipation that is not truly based on the return of Christ, but the latest prognostication.   This is nothing but imaginations of someone NOT a pretribber. What a SHOCK its going to be to many when Jesus comes PRETRIB for His bride. 

"What will be the signs of your coming...?  Actually, the only "coming" the disciples knew anything about was His coming for the resurrection and to slay the enemies and make Israel the leading nation of the world. They knew nothing of the Gentile church of today or the rapture of said church - which will be His second coming. 

Just so you know, as a very strong pretribber, I pay ZERO attention to "Dispensational Premillennialism" reports. In fact, I disagree with some of the leader's doctrine: Such as Thomas Ice. Most pretribbers have no idea where the rapture really is in Revelation or where the 70th week starts. 

You really should rethink your position. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I believe the term "in Christ" as scripture defines it, not as futurist eschatology defines it. 

 

Romans 6:8-11

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over him.  For the death that he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life that he lives, he lives to God.  Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 6:20-23
or when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.  Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.  But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:31-39
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?  He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?  Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;  who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.  Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?  Just as it is written, 'For your sake we are being put to death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.' But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.  For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,  nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 12:4-5
or just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,  so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1 Corinthians 1:2-8
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,  that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,  even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,  so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,  who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,  who also sealed us and gave us he Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Corinthians 2:14-15  
But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place.  For we are a fragrance of Christ to God...

2 Corinthians 5:16-17  
Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.  Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 

Galatians 2:15-20 
We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;  nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!  For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.  I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 

Ephesians 1:3-14  
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,  just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love  He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,  to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.  In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace  which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight  He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him  also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,  to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.  In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,  who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

This is just a sampling of what scripture states about what it means to be "in Christ." My faith in Christ may waiver but if I am in fact dead, alive, sanctified, justified, made righteous, made new, predestined, hopeful, one body and sealed in Christ and always led to triumph my eternal disposition in Christ does not. 

 

Some consideration to what you're arguing should be applied because it is a salvation by works: those left behind must weather the pending tribulation in order to be saved. That is not salvation by grace. You've not only compromise the doctrine of imminence but also of soteriology. You are arguing those sanctified in Christ must also be looking at just the right moment (which cannot occur before the temple is built) or else they must jump through more hoops. .

"In Christ" is a very simple concept: it is being "born again." It means a change in the human spirit: regeneration.  Since we all will be judged by Paul's gospel, it too is very simple: we put our faith in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord. Not looking yet, but I wonder if you will list 1 Cor. 15? Let me look. You missed a good one: the gospel Paul preached:

¹Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

² By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

³ For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

⁴ And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 That is not salvation by grace.   It is possible? You with all your knowledge? Can it be you don't understand that with the rapture, the church age ENDS? Paul's gospel ENDS. The fullness of the Gentiles will END. TIME reverts back to what it was before God sent Paul to the Gentiles.  God will once again concentrate on the JEWS. It is THEIR time: it is clearly written that the 70th week of Daniel is for HIS people. 

During the 70th week, "salvation" will be by faith as it always has been: but faith in WHAT? What will the angels say as per the ETERNAL gospel: "worship God." "Give glory to Him." Rev. 14:

 

⁶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

⁷ Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

This is what people can have faith in during the 70th week. Then can also have faith that they will be overcome. It is written. The church age will be over: the age of grace will be over. How did people come to God before Jesus came? By faith that He is GOD, the creator. The born again walk will be over. The door closed. Did you notice? The angel speaks NOTHING of the blood of Christ - speaks NOTHING about Christ at all! They MUST have enough faith in God to refuse the mark and lose their head. 

You've not only compromise the doctrine of imminence but also of soteriology.  Hmm. There is one thing I can say about you now, after reading several of your posts: you THINK you are right, even if you are wrong. However, it is the same with many others here! You should feel at home! In the common vernacular, when the 70th week comes, it is going to be a "whole new ballgame!"  What did John write?

Rev. 14: ¹² Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev. 15: ² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

You are arguing those sanctified in Christ must also be looking at just the right moment (which cannot occur before the temple is built) Wow. Again you miss the truth. Your preconceived glasses must be on. Jesus can come NOW and not be against any scripture - including any involving the temple. 

You know, it may turn out that I know more about these things than you give me credit for. 

[iamlamad]

6 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Okay. I'm listening.  Explain to me your general eschatological position. 

You're a pretribber, which normally means you believe the tribulation will occur prior to the millennial rule of Jesus. Is this your position. Being a pretribber also generally means the rapture will occur prior to the tribulation. Is this your position? In other words, the common order of pretribber is...

1) rapture (in which Christ comes for the Church) then... 
2) seven year long tribulation, then... 
3) second coming of Christ (when he may come with the Church or not) at which time... 
4) he will rule from Jerusalem for a literal 1000 years. 

Is this your position? 

If not then clarify it for me. 

Since the church pretty much calls the 70th week of Daniel as "the trib" then I am  100% pretrib as in pre-70th week. the rapture will come between the 5th seal martyrs of the church age and the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord. (the 70th week will begin with the 7th seal) In comparison, most pretribbers believe the rapture in Rev. 4:1 and the week starting with the first seal.

I will copy and past my order of events. 

1 thes 4:15:
1: Jesus comes with a shout

2: the dead in Christ rise - causing a worldwide earthquake: Paul's sudden destruction

3. the earth begins to shake

4. Two groups of people get two different results: those in Christ get raptured and escape God's wrath - those in darkness GET His wrath: Paul's sudden destruction earthquake.

5. Those in Christ are gathered and on their way to meet Christ in the clouds.

6. Paul's "sudden destruction" earthquake is worldwide - because the dead in Christ are worldwide.

7. THE DAY of the Lord starts with this earth quake. God's WRATH begins with this earthquake / sudden destruction

(In Revelation this will take place a moment before the 6th seal: rapture first, then sudden destruction earthquake of the 6th seal. But the "tribulation" or 70th week does not start until the 7th seal - I am guessing ten days later (the ten days of awe).)

8. Next will come the first 6 trumpet judgments

9. The man of sin enters Jerusalem with his Gentile armies: the city will be trampled for 42 months. The Two witnesses show up and begin witnessing.

(9b. The armies of the man of sin surround Jerusalem.)

10. Then the 7th trumpet will sound and mark the exact midpoint. The man of sin enters the temple and those watching see the abomination. The Kingdoms of the world are given to Jesus Christ. He does NOT take possession at this time: no "coming" at the 7th trumpet.

11. A second or two later, 12:6 takes place and those in Judea begin to flee. They saw the abomination.

12: As those in Judea begin to flee, Michael is going after Satan to cast him down.
Satan goes after those that flee, then turns on all those who love Jesus.

13. John sees the beast arising; The false prophet shows up, and John tells us what the Beast and the False Prophet will do.

14. God sends three angels to warn people to worship God, Babylon is fallen is fallen, to give glory to God, and not to take the mark.

15. The image is erected. The mark is created and now enforcement begins: any who refuse to bow will lose their head. The days of Great Tribulation Jesus spoke of begins.

16. the beheaded begin to show up in heaven.

17. The beast and False prophet go nuts - on a murder rampage! It seems - there may be no elect that will escape.

18. God pours out the vials of His wrath - probably the first 6 in one hour of time. this SHORTENS the days of great tribulation: TIME will go on but no tribulation associated with it. The armies of the beast are stopped. The 42 months of authority will continue on until Jesus returns.

19. The two witnesses are killed just 3.5 days before the end of the week. The 1260 days of testifying is over.

20: The armies of the beast move out into the valley in preparation for Armageddon.
The 42 months of trampling are over.

21. The 7th vial is poured out. The Old TEstament saints rise, along with the Two Witnesses. The days of GT are over. The entire 70th week is over. Jesus remains in heaven.

22: The marriage and supper are taking place in heaven. The marriage had to wait for the guests: the Old Testament saints to be resurrected.

23: Jesus returns to earth WITH His bride. Armageddon takes place.

24: the Beast and false prophet are caught. The 42 months of authority are over. The 1260 days of fleeing and the 3.5 years of protection are over.

25: the 1290 days and the 1335 days comes into play about here.

Sheep and goat judgment

the start of the 1000 year reign

THIS is John's chronology. Any thing other than this is myth

 

Feel free to cut it to shreds (so to speak)  if you doubt me! 

Edited July 7, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

18 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Yep. It's quite clear there is a lack of understanding. 

Josh: Can Christ come tomorrow? 
iamlamad: Yes. 

Josh: Must the temple first be built? 
iamlamad: Yes, the temple must be built first, it must be built before Christ comes. 

Josh: It will take at least a couple of years to build the temple.
iamlamad: That is true. It won't be built overnight. 

Josh: Then Jesus cannot come tomorrow.
iamlamad: ????? 

Josh: If the temple must first be built before Jesus comes and it will take months or years to build and not be built overnight then Jesus will not and cannot come tomorrow because his coming is predicated upon the temple being built! 

My friend, this is your PRECONCEPTIONS showing through! Your preconceived glasses are not allowing you to see what I write. You are seeing what you THINK I write. Please, try again: I wrote this:

"NO! We are waiting for JESUS! The temple may well be built in the first year of the 70th week. "

Your imagination:  "iamlamad: Yes, the temple must be built first, it must be built before Christ comes. "

The truth: NO, the temple does not have be built before the rapture. 

I wrote this: So because I believe a 3rd temple will be built, you are saying I am compromising the doctrine of imminence? I think you need to think this through a little more carefully.  The ONLY scriptural requirement is that the third temple be completed and daily sacrifices are taking place BEFORE the abomination Jesus spoke of will take place. 

Ha ha! Really, this post of yours is funny! Look, seriously, the temple may go up in a week - a month at the most: as I said, I think all the stones are ready to be put in place! The only problem is the PLACE. Once the PLACE is established and they powers that be declare they can build it, it will go up very fast. But this is not even the point: the point is, Christ's coming is NOT RELATED to the temple at all! That part is only your imagination. It is your preconceptions showing through. 

Do you have it straight now? the coming of Jesus NOT RELATED to the temple. 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Josheb said:

Not gonna bother. Simplify it. 

Rapture, then tribulation then millennial reign?

Or not?

I though you might want some more ammo...

Rapture, then trib, then millennail reign. That is John's order and God's order. 

[iamlamad]

4 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Yep. And you have argued the regenerate can be left behind; they will not be saved from the tribulation unless they are actively looking the moment of Christ's arrival. 

Maybe. I have no idea what you know and abstain from making any such assumptions about others. What I do know is what I read and much of what I am reading from you is wrong. It is wrong both scripturally and logically. Some of it is self-contradictory. If and when I read it I definitely give you credit for it .  

I have stated agreement where it exists. I have asked for clarification where either I don't understand or what is written is not clear. I have refuted that which blatantly contradicts scripture. SOP

This is not really truth: please allow me to correct: if I may put the correct words in your mouth, so to speak:

"What I do know is what I read and much of what I am reading from you I THINK is wrong. I* THINK it is wrong both scripturally and logically. Some of it is self-contradictory."

Now, I can agree with that. In other words, it just may be your theory that is wrong!

Edited July 7, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

Just now, Josheb said:

Okay. What does have to happen before Jesus comes to rapture the church? 

Ha ha! How funny! NOTHING! NOTHING has to happen. that is why we call the rapture imminent! 

[iamlamad]

18 minutes ago, Josheb said:

So no signs foreboding or otherwise indicating the rapture is soon pending?

The only scriptural thing I can find is that it will be when people are saying "peace and safety." 

[iamlamad]

21 minutes ago, Josheb said:

You understand that makes you premillennial, yes? Classic Dispensational Premillennialism holds rapture first, seven year tribulation, followed by a literal 1000-year rule by Jesus here on earth in Jerusalem. Classic Dispensational Premillennialism is pretribulational; it is pretribulational rapture. And Thomas Ice is head of the Pre-Trib Research Center, and it teaches a pre-trib rapture.

Yes, that is correct. Good job!  At least you got this part right!  ;-) You know premillennialism.  But again I will say, MOST people in this camp really don't know where either the rapture or the start of the 70th week is in Revelation. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

Just now, Josheb said:

Then Jesus cannot return until that is heard?

As I understand it, it is written on the UN building! Most people around the world today "think" they are safe and at peace. 

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by iamlamad