BIG, BIG NEWS: RESURRECTION AND RAPTURE ON MARCH 14, 2023?

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Diaste, this is hilarious! And of course very wrong. If I were you, I would re-think this. Camp out on 1 and 2 Thessalonians for a year or two. Well, a year or two might be too late. You may have a month or two! 

It would also be good to learn WHERE in Revelation "the trib" is, and in relation to that where the rapture is. When you learn the truth of these two, then you will know you have been misled. 

As I have said several times in this forum:

The gathering(rapture) is after great tribulation, which is after the A of D, which is at some point near the middle of the end of the age. I removed verses that didn't speak directly to the order of events at the end of the age but did not change the order as recorded.

“Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b ’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and

they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This is a clear and simple to see outline of the end of the age and the one and only coming of Jesus and the one and only gathering of the elect:

Birth Pangs. A of D. Great Tribulation. The Signs. The Coming of Jesus. The Gathering of the Elect.

In that order, in no other order, and only this once. It seems very unusual that the disciples would ask about the Sign of Jesus Coming and the end of the age, Jesus would answer in a great amount of detail, describe a gathering of His favorites that comes after great tribulation and the sign of His Coming, and yet fail to even hint at a vast gathering of what can only be billions of the most perfect people to ever walk the earth, and that gathering will happen before the end of the age begins.

As far as I'm concerned the only appeal pretrib holds is to the flesh. It's not sound or supported by fact. It's refuted by the unmistakable evidence of Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 concerning the return of Jesus and the gathering as well as 2 Thess 2, no matter the textual and logical butchery perpetrated by the pretrib doctrine on these scriptural passages.

Best be prepared to confront the beast and his followers. He is the refining fire come to purify the church; and that means all of us. There is no early train, there is only the hope and faith of God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, ChickenCoop said:

Problem here is confusing The Rapture with The Second Coming.  They are two different events.  Rapture is first.  Can be at anytime before The Second Coming.

 

Two different events that occur near in time to each other. There is no evidence for an early exit years before the second Coming.

"30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

"3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

One gathering after the A of D and after great tribulation.

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

As I have said several times in this forum:

The gathering(rapture) is after great tribulation, which is after the A of D, which is at some point near the middle of the end of the age. I removed verses that didn't speak directly to the order of events at the end of the age but did not change the order as recorded.

“Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b ’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and

they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This is a clear and simple to see outline of the end of the age and the one and only coming of Jesus and the one and only gathering of the elect:

Birth Pangs. A of D. Great Tribulation. The Signs. The Coming of Jesus. The Gathering of the Elect.

In that order, in no other order, and only this once. It seems very unusual that the disciples would ask about the Sign of Jesus Coming and the end of the age, Jesus would answer in a great amount of detail, describe a gathering of His favorites that comes after great tribulation and the sign of His Coming, and yet fail to even hint at a vast gathering of what can only be billions of the most perfect people to ever walk the earth, and that gathering will happen before the end of the age begins.

As far as I'm concerned the only appeal pretrib holds is to the flesh. It's not sound or supported by fact. It's refuted by the unmistakable evidence of Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 concerning the return of Jesus and the gathering as well as 2 Thess 2, no matter the textual and logical butchery perpetrated by the pretrib doctrine on these scriptural passages.

Best be prepared to confront the beast and his followers. He is the refining fire come to purify the church; and that means all of us. There is no early train, there is only the hope and faith of God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

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The gathering(rapture) is after great tribulation 

 

There IS (will be) a gathering after the days of tribulation, but it is not Paul's rapture. You are mistaken there. Go back and study 1 Thes. 5: Paul tells us that HIS gathering / rapture will come just before wrath and just before the Day of the Lord. In Revelation that can be ONLY ONE PLACE: after the 5th seal martyrs of the church age, and before the Day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal. My friend, this is PRE-trib, not posttrib. Paul should know when his rapture will come. In 2 Thes. 2, again it is clear that those people were very upset when they heard that "THE DAY" had already started. WHY were they upset? Because just like me and millions of others, they understood from Paul's first letter that the rapture would come BEFORE wrath. Now someone has told them that they are IN wrath, meaning, of course, that they missed the rapture or else Paul was mistaken. No wonder they were upset!

 

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after great tribulation, which is after the A of D

  You got this part right: it is scripture: the days of GT will start soon after the A of D.

 

 

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This is a clear and simple to see outline of the end of the age and the one and only coming of Jesus and the one and only gathering of the elect:

 

You are right, the Rev. 19 coming  is ONE coming; you have been blinded by preconceptions on His NEXT coming.  He is coming NEXT FOR His church. We wait out the 70th week where HE will be: in heaven. Then we will come WITH Him for His Armegeddon coming.

Where you miss it: The Gentile church of today had not started when Jesus spoke these words: He was speaking to JEWISH men about the end of THEIR age: we both know their age will end with the 70th week of Daniel. When Jesus mentioned the A of D, that is PROOF He is talking to Jews about their age. The A of D is what will divide THEIR week. The 70th week is judgment for ISRAEL, not the Gentile church of today. I challenge you to camp out on 1 Thes. 5. The appointments God will set for His wrath will be all those left behind, NOT HIS CHURCH.

If you wish to set your OWN appointment, feel free. But WHY - when God has made a way of escape?

 

 

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Birth Pangs. A of D. Great Tribulation. The Signs. The Coming of Jesus. The Gathering of the Elect.  In that order, in no other order, and only this once. 

 This seems true, and in fact, IS true: it is God's order. And this chain of events will happen ONCE. But this is not the WHOLE TRUTH. It is a half truth.

The truth is, Jesus is coming PRETRIB FOR His church. You left this part out. Allow me to redo:

Birth Pangs. RAPTURE. A of D. Great Tribulation. The Signs. The Coming of Jesus. The Gathering of the Elect.  In that order, in no other order, and only this once. 

See?  Just a tiny change and we would agree. 

 

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It seems very unusual ..., and yet fail to even hint at a vast gathering

No, not unusual at all. At that time God would wait and see if Israel would accept Him as their Messiah as a nation. If they had, there would be no Gentile church of today. God knew ahead of time that they would not, but just like God, He gave them every chance.  It seems God has inserted the Gentile church into Jewish time as if A PARENTHESIS.  When the pretrib rapture comes, TIME will be right back when the church started: JEWISH AGE. And God will finish up this age with Daniel's 70th week. 

 

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As far as I'm concerned the only appeal pretrib holds is to the flesh. It's not sound or supported by fact.

 PRECONCEPTIONS. It IS supported by scripture - but scripture your preconceptions are not allowing you to see. MILLIONS see it - you don't.

 

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It's refuted by the unmistakable evidence of Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 concerning the return of Jesus and the gathering

NONE of these "refute" Paul's pretrib rapture. Your thinking is right: your only mistake is you are missing a coming and a gathering. These scriptures you mention  are about the JEWS, not the Gentile church of today. 

 

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as well as 2 Thess 2,

 This is just one more scripture you don't understand. The very reason they were upset is because they understood from Paul's first letter than the rapture would come before wrath. They someone told them they were IN wrath. OF COURSE they would be upset. 

 

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the textual and logical butchery perpetrated by the pretrib doctrine on these scriptural passages 

Perhaps what you call butchery is only understanding the Author's intent. Do you really think a falling away fits "being taken out of the way?" Do you really think that it will be a great falling away that will allow the man of sin to quit being restrained so he can be revealed? Sorry, if any butchery is done, it is posttrib butchery. 

 

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Best be prepared to confront the beast and his followers. 

 

No, be EXPECTING JESUS! He is coming before anyone will see the Beast. The truth is, if anyone "confront's" the Beast, they will be overcome. Do you really think that is God's will - that His church be "overcome?"  Or do you imagine this verse is not truth or won't fit YOU? 

You did a good job here explaining exactly how you believe on these issues. I simply don't agree with you. I think you are missing the pretrib rapture truth. It is there and millions see it. You don't. You imagine ONE coming, the scriptures show us TWO. You imagine ONE gathering, the scriptures show us TWO. You imagine you will see the Beast. I think you will - but the church will not. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by iamlamad

[CLIVE CAMPBELL]

On 5/28/2020 at 7:38 PM, iamlamad said:

Clive, it seems they still have not started the daily sacrifices: I can find nothing in the news about it.

iamlamad, I haven't read anything yet either, but I do know that the Temple Mount is being opened up after COVID-19 on Sunday, May 31. I expect that the Sanhedrin will again try to start the daily sacrifices soon.

[CLIVE CAMPBELL]

On 5/28/2020 at 7:38 PM, iamlamad said:

Clive, it seems they still have not started the daily sacrifices: I can find nothing in the news about it.

iamlamad, further news:

 

[CLIVE CAMPBELL]

19 minutes ago, ChickenCoop said:

No masks no social distancing.  When did this happen?  Reenactment?  So, they didn't really do it? 

ChickenCoop, this was done on Pentecost, May 28/29, 2020--a re-enactment of, it appears, the wave offerings at Pentecost. However, it appears, no animals were sacrificed. So, I'm still waiting for the daily sacrifices to start. They may open the Temple Mount, closed due to COVID-19, tomorrow (Sunday, May 31, 2020).

Edited May 30, 2020 by CLIVE CAMPBELL

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

 

There IS (will be) a gathering after the days of tribulation, but it is not Paul's rapture. You are mistaken there. Go back and study 1 Thes. 5: Paul tells us that HIS gathering / rapture will come just before wrath and just before the Day of the Lord. In Revelation that can be ONLY ONE PLACE: after the 5th seal martyrs of the church age, and before the Day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal. My friend, this is PRE-trib, not posttrib. Paul should know when his rapture will come. In 2 Thes. 2, again it is clear that those people were very upset when they heard that "THE DAY" had already started. WHY were they upset? Because just like me and millions of others, they understood from Paul's first letter that the rapture would come BEFORE wrath. Now someone has told them that they are IN wrath, meaning, of course, that they missed the rapture or else Paul was mistaken. No wonder they were upset!

Honestly...Paul doesn't have a rapture.  Paul doesn't have the power for such a thing. What you are saying is Paul taught an idea not contained in scripture.

And you are right, it's before wrath. Not before 'great tribulation'. It always amazes me that pretrib has no problem escaping the wrath but dumps fellow brothers and sisters directly into that same wrath.  If pretrib escapes wrath based on Paul's words, "...we are not appointed to wrath..." then how can it be that other believers are appointed to that wrath?  

 

You are right, the Rev. 19 coming  is ONE coming; you have been blinded by preconceptions on His NEXT coming.  He is coming NEXT FOR His church. We wait out the 70th week where HE will be: in heaven. Then we will come WITH Him for His Armegeddon coming.

Where you miss it: The Gentile church of today had not started when Jesus spoke these words: He was speaking to JEWISH men about the end of THEIR age: we both know their age will end with the 70th week of Daniel.

You do realize the church was started by Jews? Jesus and all the apostles were Jews. At it's very roots the church IS Jewish.

When Jesus mentioned the A of D, that is PROOF He is talking to Jews about their age. The A of D is what will divide THEIR week. The 70th week is judgment for ISRAEL, not the Gentile church of today. I challenge you to camp out on 1 Thes. 5. The appointments God will set for His wrath will be all those left behind, NOT HIS CHURCH.

First show in scripture where there is any mention of 'a Gentile church'.

And you are correct; we are not appointed to wrath. Wrath and tribulation are NOT synonymous, however.

If you wish to set your OWN appointment, feel free. But WHY - when God has made a way of escape?

How would one 'set their own appointment'?

 

 This seems true, and in fact, IS true: it is God's order. And this chain of events will happen ONCE. But this is not the WHOLE TRUTH. It is a half truth.

The truth is, Jesus is coming PRETRIB FOR His church. You left this part out. Allow me to redo:

Birth Pangs. RAPTURE. A of D. Great Tribulation. The Signs. The Coming of Jesus. The Gathering of the Elect.  In that order, in no other order, and only this once. 

See?  Just a tiny change and we would agree. 

That change you made is by the hand of man. It's not in Jesus words. You inserted an idea based solely on fleshy desire and not scriptural evidence. I would very much like to agree on this if there was solid evidence for such a thing.  

 

No, not unusual at all. At that time God would wait and see if Israel would accept Him as their Messiah as a nation. If they had, there would be no Gentile church of today. God knew ahead of time that they would not, but just like God, He gave them every chance.  It seems God has inserted the Gentile church into Jewish time as if A PARENTHESIS.  When the pretrib rapture comes, TIME will be right back when the church started: JEWISH AGE. And God will finish up this age with Daniel's 70th week. 

This is nothing more than rationalization. It seems pretrib has the idea Jesus didn't exist before he was born of a virgin in Bethlehem.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." - John 1

"2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ." - 1 Cor 

 PRECONCEPTIONS. It IS supported by scripture - but scripture your preconceptions are not allowing you to see. MILLIONS see it - you don't.

Wisdom of the crowd? Appeal to the consensus? Both logically untenable. Evidence, evidence, evidence.

 

 This is just one more scripture you don't understand. The very reason they were upset is because they understood from Paul's first letter than the rapture would come before wrath. They someone told them they were IN wrath. OF COURSE they would be upset. 

No, they did not understand it from Paul's first letter. "Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?" 2 Thess 2:5 Just another example of reading what isn't there. Since you have this incorrect you should see your position weaken.

 

Perhaps what you call butchery is only understanding the Author's intent. Do you really think a falling away fits "being taken out of the way?" Do you really think that it will be a great falling away that will allow the man of sin to quit being restrained so he can be revealed? Sorry, if any butchery is done, it is posttrib butchery. 

Author intent is determined by what is written. Paul is persuading, informing, explaining and describing. That's most of the intent of 2 Thess 2:1-8. You cannot add elements to the story or you are editing.

As has been shown many times it's rebellion, revolt, defection; it's not 'forcibly abducted from one place and taken to another'. 

It's the coming of the Lord and the gathering that is held back until the beast is revealed and the rebellion occurs. In other words there is no Coming of our Lord or a gathering before the beast emerges and the people of God rebel and join the camp of the beast. 

No, be EXPECTING JESUS! He is coming before anyone will see the Beast. The truth is, if anyone "confront's" the Beast, they will be overcome. Do you really think that is God's will - that His church be "overcome?"  Or do you imagine this verse is not truth or won't fit YOU? 

I guess if one looks at Rev 2-3 we see the idea "...the one who overcomes..." written 7 times. Since there is no victory without the threat of defeat these overcomers must overcome something.  What has to be determined is what is the condition that is "...overcome...". Pretrib must imagine Jesus is speaking to overcoming the psycho boss, the overbearing assistants, traffic jams, unruly kids and the neighbors dog that just won't stop barking at 2 am.

In each of the excerpts to the existing church Jesus speaks to the condition of the church at present; first lauding them for any virtue they hold and then pleads for them to repent of any spiritual or physical immorality. But then there is this warning that appears in five of the excerpts:

But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Therefore repent! Otherwise I will come to you shortly and wage war against them with the sword of My mouth.

those who commit adultery with her will suffer great tribulation unless they repent of her deeds. Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you.

Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent.

Here Jesus talks about discipline, rebuke, war, surprise, great tribulation and removal in the context of the 'church', all by His hand. These dire consequences fall within Rev 1:1-3. By the pretrib doctrine then discipline, rebuke, war, surprise, great tribulation and removal in the context of the church must be happening now.

It seems from the context 'overcoming' must have something, and probably everything, to do with the prophecy that follows or Rev 2-3 makes little sense. 

Physically overcome, spiritual victory to life eternal. It's not about the flesh it's about the spirit.

You did a good job here explaining exactly how you believe on these issues. I simply don't agree with you. I think you are missing the pretrib rapture truth. It is there and millions see it. You don't. You imagine ONE coming, the scriptures show us TWO. You imagine ONE gathering, the scriptures show us TWO. You imagine you will see the Beast. I think you will - but the church will not. 

Maybe I am wrong. I'm just a member of mankind after all and that makes me fallible. The best I can do is prepare, be ready, study, pray, have faith in Jesus that regardless of circumstance I can trust in His promises.

 

[iamlamad]

17 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Honestly...Paul doesn't have a rapture.  Paul doesn't have the power for such a thing. What you are saying is Paul taught an idea not contained in scripture.

And you are right, it's before wrath. Not before 'great tribulation'. It always amazes me that pretrib has no problem escaping the wrath but dumps fellow brothers and sisters directly into that same wrath.  If pretrib escapes wrath based on Paul's words, "...we are not appointed to wrath..." then how can it be that other believers are appointed to that wrath?  

Paul doesn't have a rapture.  Is this the best you can do? We CALL it Paul's rapture or Paul's gathering to differentiate it from the gathering in Matthew 24.  

What you are saying is Paul taught an idea not contained in scripture.  How silly! Paul IS scripture! This may be your imagined idea of what I wrote, but what I wrote comes straight from 1 thes. chapters 4 & 5. You and I both know:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. ² For yourselves know perfectly that But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  so cometh as a thief in the night.

Why would Paul write "the Day of the Lord, just three verses after the church being caught up?  It is because THE DAY starts instantly after the church being caught up. Paul goes on to show that while WE get caught up (salvation) and get to "live together with Him," those left behind get "sudden destruction."  Then, just like above, Paul shows us that sudden destruction is the wrath of God  - of which God is NOT going to set any appointments for us. The appointments for wrath will be those left behind.

Rev. 6 shows us this same timing: the 5th seal martyrs of the church age are told that judgment (the 6th seal) will not come until the final number of church age martyrs if filled up. What is going to make the very last church age martyr? Of course, the END of the church age. Any martyrs after that will be Day of the Lord or 70th week martyrs. John talks of them at the first of chapter 15.

So according to Paul and John, the final church age martyr is killed (God knows the total number), Jesus descends to the air, the dead in Christ are called up (causing a great, worldwide earthquake), an instant later those alive and in Christ are called up, and those left behind are caught in the sudden destruction wrath of God: the start of the Day of the Lord and the Day of His wrath. My friend, this IS scripture - and from the very person that received the revelation of the rapture. Why people try to find the timing of Paul's rapture somewhere else in scripture is beyond me. Paul is the only man who received revelation that those alive and in Christ would be caught up and changed.

And you are right, it's before wrath.  Thank God: a tiny bit of agreement. 

Not before 'great tribulation'  Now you are back on a tangent, away from what is written into human imagination, not understanding what will CAUSE the days of GT, or where in scripture the days of GT will be. You need assistance here: 

First the rapture

Next, the start of the Day of His wrath, (6th seal)

Then the start of the 70th week  (7th seal)

Then the first half of the week (the first 6 Trumpet judgments)

Then the abomination that divides the week. (the man if sin entering the temple) (7th trumpet sounding)

Those in Judea begin to flee, and at the same time, War in heaven begins (Rev. 12)

John sees the Beast rising

Then, FINALLY, according to the words of Jesus: "Then shall be days of GT..."

See how easy this is if we just follow John's chronology?  He laid it all out for us.

It always amazes me that pretrib has no problem escaping the wrath but dumps fellow brothers and sisters directly into that same wrath. Another tangent.

It always amazed me that posttrib ignores the fact that God gives every human on earth a choice to BE READY for His coming: I think "watch" is mentioned umteen times - over and over and over readers are cautioned to watch. Yet, the truth is, billions will be left behind, because they were not born again. And of these billions, millions will be people who called themselves "Christian." Sadly they were never taught that they were lost and HAD TO be born again. Then more millions of Jews and Hebrews that imagine they love the Father, but ignore the Son, thinking Jesus was only an impostor. Question: is it God's "FAULT" that they were left behind? Did God do all He could go to warn people that they must WATCH for Jesus' next coming? 

If pretrib escapes wrath based on Paul's words, "...we are not appointed to wrath..." then how can it be that other believers are appointed to that wrath?    This is SO SIMPLE: those left behind WERE NOT BORN AGAIN.  Or, perhaps as I suspect and as I read Hebrews 9:last verse: some are born again and still left behind because they believe they will see the Beast first. I suspect God will give them exactly what they are believing for. Not only will they be caught in God's wrath, they will be OVERCOME by Satan's wrath.  It is OF COURSE God's will that all (the entire human race) be caught up with the church. He is not willing that ANY should perish. But you and I both know, the church is the minority. I hope I am mistaken here - but I read in Hebrews that He will be coming for those LOOKING for Him. Does that mean He is NOT coming for those NOT looking?

[iamlamad]

50 minutes ago, Diaste said:

You do realize the church was started by Jews? Jesus and all the apostles were Jews. At it's very roots the church IS Jewish.

Thank God, another point we can agree on! Hallelujah!  Yes, the Gentiles are grafted into the Jewish tree.  But what does this have to do with people being left behind? 

[iamlamad]

52 minutes ago, Diaste said:

First show in scripture where there is any mention of 'a Gentile church'.

And you are correct; we are not appointed to wrath. Wrath and tribulation are NOT synonymous, however.

How would one 'set their own appointment'?

How would someone set their OWN appointment? First, imagine Jesus was an impostor. Second, just ignore Jesus or put off a decision about Jesus for later. Third, be lost in some false religion and know nothing about Jesus. 

Wrath (during the day of His wrath) will come from two directions: God's wrath will come in the trumpets and bowls. Satan's wrath (during the last half of the week) will come by forcing people to worship an image or lose their head, and taking a mark  or losing their head. The "tribulation" or pressure will come from both God's judgments and Satan's wrath. What most people miss is, Satan's wrath (causing great tribulation) will come while and during God's wrath. The two cannot be separated in TIME. 

It IS (for the most part) a GENTILE church. 

Romans 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

For the most part, GENTILES make up the church of today. Some people make silly arguments like the Gentiles of today really aren't Gentiles at all, but displaced descendants of Jacob. I think God knows who is a Gentile.