Salvation...Can it be lost???

[angels4u]

Cardcaptor,

1:

Are you Roman Catholic?

Your doctrine sound like you are because I don't know one Catholic who believes that when Jesus saves you will absolutely go to heaven.

2:

If Jesus payed your ticket to heaven by dying on the cross, why would you want to take it back?

3:Do you think Jesus gives and takes Salvation back like a yo-yo?

You make Jesus sound very low and not worthy because You don't think He is able to get you to heaven after being born again.

4:He died on the cross for you and me,so why do you want to kill Him over and over?

He said "It is finished!'

5: What do you think that meant?

6:Do you want to add to it?

My Jesus is powerful and promised me that no matter how often I fall and stumble and believe me I do, He will get me back on my feet ....and on my way to heaven.

7:Do you serve the same God as I do??

8:Do you believe I am saved if I fall , sin and stumble on my way to heaven?

For it is by grace that I am saved and not by anything I did myself...

[eric]

Angels. You preach it sister.

eric.

[angels4u]

One more question for Cardpactor:

Where did the sinners go who died with Jesus on the cross?

And why?

[Ovedya]

Looks like I missed quite a lot yesterday. Nevertheless, for what it's worth, I wanted to go ahead and respond to Butero's comments in our discussion:

You are right and wrong about what you said about Abraham. First, you are right that Abraham lived before the law of Moses was given. You are wrong in saying he was saved by faith without works following.

James 2:19-26 "Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God.

24 Ye see then, how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also, was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messegners, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

No, Abraham was not justified by keeping the law of Moses as it had not been given, but he was justified by works when he obeyed direct commands of God. Re-read verse 21. "Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS...?"

Well, to begin with, saying that Abraham was justified by his works does not to mean that he was saved by his works. It would seem to me that if the Bible wanted to make the case for salvation by works that it would have done so by using the word "salvation" instead of "justification." This is actually a kind of pitfall for those who believe in salvation by works. However, "justification" does not mean "salvation." Neither are they interchangable terms in the Bible.

Justification in the Bible means, "To exhibit righteousness." Therefore, given this meaning, the verses in James are saying that Abraham's works were exhibits of - a testimony of - his righteousness, which was out of faith. Abraham's faith was not dead (dormant) because his works were evident. Faith and works thus work in tandem with one another, as it should be. However, the lack of works in a Christian's life does not determine his salvation. In fact, the justification that God uses in determining our salvation is the work of Christ, as clearly evidenced by Romans 3:21-31.

You made the statement our salvation can be only by works or faith in Christ. Not so. James says differently. He makes it clear both are required. James 2:24 "Ye see then, how THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY."

Actually, I did not say that. I said that righteousness is only either through the keeping of the Law or it is through the keeping of Christ. However, again, you are equating justification with salvation. The Bible never does this at all, unless it is talking about being justified freely through the death of Christ.

You are right. The scripture in Hebrews doesn't say what the punishment is, but it is obvious that punishment is the lake of fire. You may argue different and even say it does not come out and say that but it also doesn't say the punishment is loss of rewards, which is what most of the Baptist persuation believe. You just claim that is the case because it agrees with your doctrinal position.

And wouldn't you say that your presumption here, that "punishment" means, "the lake of fire" is also because it agrees with your doctrinal position? In fact, I would think that it is more reasonable to take the Bible at face-value rather than making a presumption of what it means, or causing it to say what it does not.

Where I addressed Christ leaving I said the believer first leaves Jesus. Because of that, that man or woman is no longer a believer so when Jesus leaves he is not leaving or forsaking a Christian. He is departing from a non-Christian.

There are a lot of serious problems with this kind of thought, and really you're just trying to reason to yourself apart from the guidance of the Bible. It would be convenient for the Lord to leave a "former Christian" because he's not longer a Christian, as you say, but that implies certain things that are not characteristic of an eternally loving and willingly sacrificial Lord and Savior.

Secondly, it places the "former Christian" in somewhat of a pickle. The Lord Jesus only died once upon the cross - He only sacrificed Himself once for the sins of the world. Were it possible for a Christian to become "unsaved" and exist in such a state that the Lord is no longer with him, then it would be necessary for a person to "re-receive" the Lord's salvation each and every time he falls. And each time that he "re-receives" the Lord, it would be as if the Lord were crucified all over again each time. The Scriptures are very clear that this kind of action is not only unnecessary, it is actually prohibited. Read Hebrews 6:1-6.

In the case of the person put out of the Corinthian Church, it is true that it doesn't say he lost his salvation, but neither does it say he has not.

He is put out of the church and turned over to Satan for the destruction of the body, in the hope he will repent before he dies and become saved again. It makes no guarantee he will simply die a premature death and go to heaven with spot on his garment. Paul is telling the church it is not showing him love to overlook his transgressions and allow him to continue on in good fellowship. Don't be tollerant of such an offense. He was also concerned about his bad behavior corrupting the rest of the church.

Your analysis of the verses are correct, however, verse 5 does speak of salvation. There is no ambiguity as to whether the person will or will not be saved. It says, "...that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord." The phrase "may be" is in the sense of facilitating, like if I were to say "I'm going to buy tickets to the theater so that I may be able to watch tonight's play." So there is no questioning like, "Well, we'll put him out and maybe he'll repent." Whether or not he repents is between him and the Lord. The point is, as you said, to not tolerate the sin in the church and not to approve it for the sake of "loving the brothers."

You say you don't believe a Christian can really depart from the faith.

No. I didn't. I wrote that a believer cannot truly depart from Christ. They can, however, be absolutely deceived by the enemy to believe that they are no longer part of the fold.

I was listening to Coast to Coast AM one night and their guest was a woman named Patsy. She testified she was once a born again Christian and active in church. She had since renounced the faith, changed her name to Harlot and now serves the devil. She has become a full blown Satanist and is a practicing witch. She did leave Christ. He did not leave her and I do not believe he has any obligation to remain with such a person. She went so far as to say she looks forward to the time when Jesus tells her to depart from him, as she now hates God.

You can continue to believe what you want, but such a person will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

Well, I feel truly sorry for that woman. She may be deceived beyond recovery. I pray that such a person realizes the mistake that they have made and returns once again to the Father. However, if such a one dies in this state I believe that they will receive a severe punishment, but ultimately if she genuinely received the life of God, if she was genuinely saved, then ultimately she will inherit eternity.

The word justified in James is from the Greek word dikaioo, which means to render, show, or regard as just or innocent, free, justify, be righteous. When a person comes to Jesus and is born again, we are washed clean by his blood and are regarded as just or innocent, righteous in the sight of God, not because we deserved it but because Jesus already paid the penalty for our sin on the cross. To claim that their is some great difference here between what happens when we experience our salvation experience is wrong. If we were not considered innocent in the sight of God we couldn't enter heaven. Abraham was considered by God to be just and innocent and righteous because of his works. Therefore, if he didn't have good works he would not be just, innocent, and righteous and would not be able to make it to heaven. There is a difference in exhibiting righteousness and being considered by God to be righteous, and by definition the word means to be regarded as righteous.

I will not bother to debate the next couple of things you said since they hinge on the definition of the word justify, and I have already showed that you gave a wrong definition of that word.

Yes, my saying the punishment in Hebrews is the lake of fire does reflect my beliefs. In that argument, I would say we are at a stale mate since it never really says.

Concerning the person that loses salvation, I do believe there is a point where it is no longer possible for them to return to the Lord. There comes a point where they have gone so far away from God, he no longer deals with them and they do not care to get saved again. For such a person, it is indeed impossible to be restored. The example I gave of the woman that turned to Satanism would be such a case. I do not believe she will get to heaven, even if she one time did have a genuine salvation experience.

In the case of the person in Corinthians, there is no doubt in my mind that if he never comes to repentance and dies, he will wind up in hell. The hope is that as Satan wreaks havock in his life, he will come to his senses and be restored.

It seems that everytime I get back to this thread I've already lost a couple of pages. The pace here is really hard to keep up with. So I think I'm going to bow out gracefully. I wanted you to know that I read and understand your answer here, and your position. We'll have to agree to disagree for now.

I would like to add an observation that I had the other day, however, and I hope that you will ponder this for a minute or two: The other day just after I had posted my last response to this thread, in answer to you, I briefly reviewed Shiloh and cardcaptor's debate. I found it particularly interesting that Shiloh and I were basically saying exactly the same things in our posts, even though we have not coordinated with one another, nor had either of us been following one another's debates (I confirmed this later after I had made this same observation to him).

The verse that immediately came to my mind was this: "Make my joy full, that you think the same thing, having the same love, joined in soul, thinking the one thing." (Phil. 2:2). There are a couple of other verses which talk about having the same opinion, like in 1 Cor. 1:10 for example, but this one to me seems to speak more toward the oneness shared by the believers through the leading of the Holy Spirit, rather than simply being in agreement with one another in the church in a natural way.

Shiloh and I are basically speaking the same thing here. We're not appraoching the subject from widely different angles, as we see here in so many other posts on this thread. We're going through the same steps. I strongly believe that his is due to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Think about it: If there is only one essential truth to this issue, then there would only be one speaking. Even if the speaking varies a bit from one person to the next, the essential truth is the same. Just as with the gospels, there are variations to the story, but at the end of each the Lord still sheds His blood for the sins of the world.

[Homosearching]

Some questions for Shiloh. Did not Shiloh in the old testament refer to Christ?

It is a Messianic reference to Jesus, yes. It was also the first city where the Tabernacle was built, in the Promised Land.

And what about Hebrew 6 where they cruify Christ afresh because the went back into their sins are you say then they never really had Christ and salvation?

Huh???? :node: :emit-questioned:

And if not how could they have put him to a open shame and be renew again to repentance seeing they had falling away?

Huh??? Could you rephrase this one, and the previous question? I am at a loss as to what you are asking.

Do you make yourself out to be the really Shiloh who judges people and says that they never really had it?

Actually, no. The Bible give us a litmus test for who is a Christian and who is not. A true Christian has a new heart, a new set of desires a new appetite for God, and a new attitude. A true Christian is regenerated, and his/her heart is set on the things of God.

I do know people who were in there and striving put did fall away because of hard trails and persuction in their lives and they left.

Yet, I am not talking about that. I am saying that you cannot be a True Christian, filled with Spirit, serving God everyday, experience His presence, firing on all eight cylinders with the throttle wide open, and then wake up one morning and just decide out of the blue to apostasies, fornicate, and worship the devil. Cardcaptor is saying that such is possible, and I am saying that a person who can walk away from God and not look back, and just flat out not care, never had the Lord to start with.

I have, had you bothered to read my previous posts, admitted that there are Christians who in a time of discouragement, and despair, walk away. Sometimes, the loss of a child, or spouse, or the infidelity of a spouse, or divorce, or something else can hurt so much that it has the potential to shipwreck their faith. That happens. That is where I say that the grace and compassion of God is most needed. There is a difference between someone who falls in a time of extraordinary pain, and someone who simply preferred to spend their time gratifying their sinful lusts.

Wasn't the parables of the seed and the sower teach us about that and because of trails and persecution and the love for this world they lost their hope?

No Jesus was talking about a group who received the word with joy but it was the cares of this world and lusts of other things that choked out the Word that was planted. That does not necessarily refer to a falling away or losing hope. We all get distracted with the daily cares of life, from time to time.

I have a study I have done on the four categories of Christians mentioned in that parable in Mark. The specific category you reference is category three. That is where most Christians are. We receive the Word of God, it takes root, but we get distracted. We get too many irons in the fire, and pretty soon the Word takes a back seat to everything else, and that which was planted never flourishes because we are now too busy to nourish the Word that was already implanted.

Even Church work, and ministry can actually keep us from the Word of God. We can get so caught up in Church activities and mission trips, and special events, that we actually forget about God. Those things meant to help us serve the Lord end up causing us to be the antithesis of what we are supposed to be.

Shiloh

I have read your previous post that is why I am asking you these question. I will try to ask this one question again. In Hebrews 6 it talks about ones who had obey the principles of the doctrine of Christ but they did not go on to perfection because it says in verse 4 the it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, ( in other words the had received the Holy Spirit), And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This passage seem obvious that these Christian who had the Holy Spirit fell away, they lost their salvation and in verse 7 & 8) say their end is to be burned. By this scripture it would seem that osas is not true and that a person has to be obedient or work out his salvation until the day he or she dies.

What is your understanding of these verse?

[Homosearching]

Was it not Noah's obedience that saved him? Could he just say I believe you God and then not build the Ark? And would not that disobedience lead to his death and the death of all mankind?

His obedience was a manifestation of his faith in God. God made an odd request of him to spend a tremendous amount of time doing a seemingly absurd thing, yet he trusted God and did what He said. Everyone around him watched as he built this huge arc, yet no one else apparently asked to join him, or built an arc of their own. It was faith that preceded his works of obedience, and therefore it was his faith that saved him. Ultimately our actions are a reflection of what we believe.

In the same way I can claim that I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, but if I don't act in a manner that expresses that He is the Lord of my life then I really don't have faith in Him. My faith in Him is manifested in my obedience to Him. It is not the intellectual knowledge of Him, or the fact that I am obedient to Him that saves me, but is my faith that He is who He is, and has done what He has done that saves me, which is manifested by my actions. Thus, I am saved by His grace, through my faith, which produces outward signs of my faith.

Mr SE

My question to you then is that my works are needed because I have to show to God that I believe. I am saved by grace because I have not done anything to deserve the gift of Christ. but if I don't obey the teaching of Christ then my faith is vain. Is it not like some one gives to me out of the kindness of their heart medicine that will cure me of a fatal illness. If I never take that medicine it that act of kindness (or Grace if you will) is of no avail. It didn't do me anything. We know that Noah had faith in God because he builded the Ark. Faith without works is dead. That is faith without obedience is of no value it is vain. And that expression of faith has to be done on a daily bases. Faith with out works is not salvation. Noah would not of been saved if he did not build the Ark. Just like I am not saved if I don't work out my salvation with fear and trembling. In other words do the works that God has ordained that we should walk in. Ephesians 2:10.

You said and I quote" It is not the intellectual knowledge of Him, or the fact that I am obedient to Him that saves me, but is my faith that He is who He is, and has done what He has done that saves me, which is manifested by my actions. If I don't have actions then I don't have faith. We are not save by faith only, in James 2:24 see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. It was faith that moved Noah and work that builded the Ark and so escape the flood you need both for salvation.

[Guest shiloh357]

Please note - God teaches a universal truth in this passage. He does not say (as you say) that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the righteous man to turn back to his sin once he has tasted the righteous life. God does not say (as you say) that the righteous man was really never a righteous man at all, he was only deceived into thinking he was righteous man. No

[Guest shiloh357]

Hebrews 10:9, 10 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The Old Law was taken away and Christ brought us a new one. The new law is what we are commanded to follow and what we will be jujdged by on judgment day.

No, Hebrews 10:9, 10 is talking about the first and second covenants. The Bible NEVER refers to an "old law," or "new law." Those are terms you made up, and are not biblical. There are old and new covenants. Covenant and law are two different words.

Jesus took away the first COVENANT in order that he could establish the second COVENANT. There is no first or old law, and there is not new or second law.

It would help the debate if you actually learned what words mean, and used the same terms the Bible uses instead of making up unbiblical phrases and them applying to the Bible. It really shows that you don't know what you are talking about, and that you are not an intellectually honest debator.

There is only ONE law, but it is administered differently under the New COVENANT

[angels4u]

Cardcaptor,

2: If Jesus payed your ticket to heaven by dying on the cross, why would you want to take it back?

I am not the one taking it back.

What if you sin and don't work on you salvation all the time or there is lust in your heart?

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (KJV)

If you really love the Lord you WANT to live for Him

and when you fall He will He will put you back on your feet. WHEN is the cut off time?

3Christ has all power on heaven and earth. He is the Alpha and the Omga. He is the mediator between man and God. He is the author and finisher of our salvation. He is the first begotten. He is with us unto the ends of the earth and will never leave nor forsake us.

Here you said it yourself He will never leave us until the end and that He IS the finisher, is that with your help?

I don't understand what you are referring to in killing him over and over.

5: What do you think that meant

Well.. if you believe you can lose your Salvation wouldn't He have to die over and over to forgive you again when you want to be restored?

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Here's the word "FINISHED"

8: Do you believe I am saved if I fall , sin and stumble on my way to heaven?

Yes, I do.

What if I would have unforgiveness towards my brother in my heart? Am I lost?

What if I die in a state of sinning?

We show our love to Christ by believing in him and keeping his commandments. Our works are all the commandments that we keep

.

How about we WANT to keep the commentment if we are really born again?

Angels

[MrSealedEternal]

My question to you then is that my works are needed because I have to show to God that I believe. I am saved by grace because I have not done anything to deserve the gift of Christ. but if I don't obey the teaching of Christ then my faith is vain. Is it not like some one gives to me out of the kindness of their heart medicine that will cure me of a fatal illness. If I never take that medicine it that act of kindness (or Grace if you will) is of no avail. It didn't do me anything. We know that Noah had faith in God because he builded the Ark. Faith without works is dead. That is faith without obedience is of no value it is vain. And that expression of faith has to be done on a daily bases. Faith with out works is not salvation. Noah would not of been saved if he did not build the Ark. Just like I am not saved if I don't work out my salvation with fear and trembling. In other words do the works that God has ordained that we should walk in. Ephesians 2:10.

You said and I quote" It is not the intellectual knowledge of Him, or the fact that I am obedient to Him that saves me, but is my faith that He is who He is, and has done what He has done that saves me, which is manifested by my actions. If I don't have actions then I don't have faith. We are not save by faith only, in James 2:24 see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. It was faith that moved Noah and work that builded the Ark and so escape the flood you need both for salvation.

My point is that you only need faith, and that our actions reflect our faith. Noah built the arc because He had faith that God was going to do what He said He would do. If Noah hadn't built the arc, it would suggest that he thought God was bluffing, or that Noah was suicidal. It was the manifestation of that faith in his works, that caused him to reflect that faith with actions.

If you don't obey Christ, then your real problem is that you don't really believe that He is your Lord, and your only means of salvation. Your faith isn't in vain, it is non-existent.

In your medicine analogy, if you truly had faith in the medicine, your actions would reflect that faith by taking it. By not taking it, you either don't believe it is your only hope of salvation, or you don't want to be saved. The same is true in the Biblical sense.

It is lack of faith that prevents people from being saved. That which you truly believe is always evident by your actions, but faith always precedes action. If you are lacking proper actions, then you should examine your faith.

If you try to earn your salvation, then you have already exhibited a lack of faith. You're works are preceding your faith, which means that your faith is in yourself rather than in He whom can save you. Your faith is the only thing that can save you, and if that faith hasn't manifested itself in your actions, then you need to re-examine your faith to see if it is sincere. If you respond by trying to work harder, rather than addressing the problem with your faith, then you will insure that your faith is focused more and more on yourself, than on the Savior who can save you.

A faith without works is a dead faith. In other words, you are exhibiting a lack of faith by not having works. It is nothing more than an empty profession which your actions prove to be false. You can only be justified by a sincere faith, so again, if there is no action then you need to examine the faith.

Mr SE