Salvation...Can it be lost???

[EricH]

I once put my salvation down on a park bench and someone tried to steal it before I got back. Luckily, I found it again.

This is a ridiculous notion. Anyone who has ever known the goodness of God will never find joy anywhere else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you regarding the persistance of the saints. However I think the following are what need to be taken into account

1. The teaching of scripture regarding this

2. All of God's attributes and how scripture says we should understand them.

The reason I include number 2 is that if one appeals to God's goodness alone, it might imply that God's decision to make all believers secure was not also conditioned by His holiness, justice etc. It might cause people to believe that God exercises one attribute at the expence of another, or to think one attributr is more important than another

[Pilgrim7]

Here is a scripture to explain away. There are many others, but one at a time.

Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

I am always in awe of the those who can so easily make the Scriptures of none effect.

God Bless,

Dennis

[EricH]

Here is a scripture to explain away.  There are many others, but one at a time.

Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

I am always in awe of the those who can so easily make the Scriptures of none effect.

God Bless,

Dennis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I catch your drift here you are implying that the word "condemnation" refers to the eternal status of the believer.

The context of the James 5:7-12 passage is James 5:1-6. In that passage James is addressing the rich who:

1. Have trusted in their riches, and will thus experience eternal dissapointment (James 5:1-3)

2. Abused those who worked for them (James 5:4-5)

3. Used it to condemn the righteous (believers) (James 5:6)

James begins the passage telling the brothers (believers) to be patient in light of these sufferings at the hands of the rich until the coming of the Lord and that they should strengthen their hearts (James 5:7-8)

James then issues a warning:

Do not complain, brethren, against one another, that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.

James 5:9 NASB

The temptation for believers might be to turn on one another, since they cannot lash out at the rich and powerful who oppress them. They should rather be comforted by the fact that the Judge is standing at the door and will correct the situation, and also to live so that they will not be judged. The greek word for judged (krino) is typically translated as judge (not condemned)

So the question to ask is, "What judgment James is talking about" The coming of the Lord and judgement of believers finds a parallel in 2 Corinthians 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

2 Corinthians 5:10 NASB

The nature of this judgment will be to look at the believers life for the handing out and removing of rewards (1 Corinthians 3:14)

So James statement makes sense in this light. As the believers exhibit patience and live righteously, they can look forward and take comfort in the fact that the Judge is standing at the door, and will hand out rewards for a life well lived. But they should also take warning that they do not turn on one another. Because at that same judgement they can also loose rewards for mistreating the bretheren.

James proceeds to hold up the example of the prophets who withstood suffering with patience (James 5:10). He also holds up the example of Job in this regard and again appeals to the fact that the Lord will reward the believer for a life of patience and endurance in the midst of unjust suffering (James 5:11)

Behold, we count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.

James 5:11 NASB

James now begins a new section in James 5:12. He warns agains the taking of oaths lightly.

But above all, my brethren,do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but let your yes be yes, and your no, no; so that you may not fall under judgment.

James 5:12 NASB

Again we must ask what the nature of the judgment is that James has in mind here? James 5:13-15 answers this. It appears that some in the church to which James was writing had fallen into suffering (James 5:13) It also appears that the nature of this suffering is sickness related to sin.

Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

James 5:14-15 NASB

So it appears that the judgment James had in mind in this case is illness brought on by sin(oaths to the Lord that are not paid). If this happens, people are instructed to go to the elders for healing and to seek restoration.

The problem with interpreting this passage as a threat of loss of eternal life is that there is no place in the context where the "judgement" is defined that way. And the greek word krino does not automatically bring with it that connotation. The context does however give us clues as to what James had in mind. Namely in one case the bema seat, and in another sickness brought on by sin.

[mrs]

Are you trying to teach universal salvation?

[EricH]

A little clip stating all have salvation even if you know it or not. (I rearrange the page so it's a little easier reading and attempting to show that everyone has salvation.

[EricH]

A little clip stating all have salvation even if you know it or not. (I rearrange the page so it's a little easier reading and attempting to show that everyone has salvation.

[Pilgrim7]

EricH,

Good job. Thanks for making my point.

God Bless,

Dennis

[EricH]

What about the millions or billions of people before the time of Jesus? They never got to known the teaching of Jesus. They automatically saved or lost? How could loosing them be justified?

What about people in poor nations who never heard of the bible or Jesus and are alive today? How would loosing them be justified?

Dennis,

While this is a compelling argument from an emotional point of view, it doesn't really carry that much weight from a scriptural perspective. When you ask how it could be "justified", do you mean from your perspective or God's. God does not need to answer to us. He is the standard of justice. The bottom line is that scripture teached that Jesus is the only way to the father.

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

John 14:6 NASB

What will happen to those who have never heard? Only God knows. All scripture affirms is that in order to fix our relationship to the Father we must go through Jesus. We cannot go beyond that. All we can do is trust that God will do what is just and loving (according to His standards of these concepts, not ours). But we cannot state that they are saved, because scripture does not tell us they are.

Anybody on this earth doesn't know Jesus. If we did. We wouldn't be here? So how are some who say they believe are justified to be saved?

I don't really understand your point here. Scripture teaches us that it is possible for us to have a relationship with Christ and still remain on earth. We can be in the world, but not of it.

Also didn't christ say I tasted death for all sins? If he did taste death for all sins wouldn't he be going against his very own word? Afterall not believing is a sin as we turned our back on him.

I would need to see a scripture reference for that to understand what you are affirming

A real world example, how do you feel when you see a parent turn there back on their mis-behaving child. Who do you blame? The child or bad parenting. Were suppose to be the child of god. So god will turn his back on us? This is salvation, what?

This is actually a not so good analogy. The reason that God cannot simply let people have a pass is that He is holy and just. Also, not all are God's children,. Only those who have recieved Christ can be called His children

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

John 1:12 NASB

Nah to think one will be saved and another will not be, because of a made up technically is selfishness and evil.

Notes:

Who could live life happily ever after knowing someone else is suffering?

If your memory was wipped clean of knowing someone else is suffering and your living happily ever after would that not be a life in vain? Also wouldn't that make it against gods word?

I think your argument is really with God.

[RGR]

I have no arguement with god. I care enough to stand and up and say there must be a way. According to scripture no one cares as much as god. If I'm willing to stand up fight and say He deserves a second chance! Shouldn't god who obviously has a bigger heart than mine be for it (no means to put words in his mouth but for lack of better phrase). One of the teachings is forgive and forget.

I'm going to try and find the scripture for a few your questions ie (died for all sins) and so on. Will update this post.

Please do me a favor and use a capital G in reference to Him! TY!

[EricH]

Let me ask you a question. The apostle John saw the things that will happen in the book of Revelation. He said this:

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:12-15 NASB

If all are saved, as you say, who are these people who will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at the Great White Throne judgement?