Salvation...Can it be lost???

[Arthur Durnan]

TREMENDOUS exposition of God's everlasting - not temoral - salvation, Eric!! You've got them running for the tall grass on this one. Thanx for your time & understanding of God's holy & settled & reliable Word of Truth. Indebted to you.

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Smalcald]

Eric,

Yes I totally agree that not everyone will be saved. Universalism is obviously against what is shown in scripture. I do like the preservation of the saint

[Remnantrob]

Hey guys,

Long time no see. God's been good and I've been blessed to have the opportunity to keep learning about the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I hope you guys don't mind my 2 cents I'd like to add to this topic. Seems as if this is the most popular thread. Anywho, I wanted to first agree with who ever said that we all have salvation. God died for all of us...most of us just don't decide to accept that gift. I was reading an article about salvation and I thought that if there we some readers who were confused about what salvation is I could supply a brief summary. As you all know the Grace of God has everything to do with salvation. So here is what I believe in with regards to grace and salvation.

True Grace says

1) Jesus saves you from your sins

2) Jesus cleanses me from the inside out.

I receive a new heart and a new mind

3) I always have free will. Jesus cannot heal me if I do not consent to be changed.

4) Salvation is not heaven (that's just the home of the saved). Salvation is not eternal life (that's the reward of the saved). Salvation is freedom from the slavery of sin in my life, here, now, in this present world.

Phony Grace says

1) Jesus saves you in your sins

2) Jesus covers me with his righteousness, but I'm still dirty on the inside.

3) Jesus loves me too much to ever let me be lost no matter what I do. Presumption is the counterfeit of faith.

4) Salvation is heaven and eternal life.

Now that I reread what was written, it sounds a little like I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I apologize if that seems to be the tone, but I don't apologize for believing this way regarding Grace and Salvation. Anywho...May this thread continue to build each one of us up until He comes again.

God bless

[Pilgrim7]

EricH,

You wrote:

"Actually I don't hold to Onse Saved only Saved. I hold to the Perseverance of the Saints which says that real believers will persevere and hold fast to the faith. Thus they are secure. I did not say what you indicated I said regarding the passages" It was part of the scripture you quoted. No problem.

We are in agreement! Only those who persevere or endure are saved or secure. It is just that some believe that you can't lose your faith. So that makes it OSAS. God says that some will depart from the faith and for Bible believers that settles the issue.

1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

If God says some will depart, then some will depart. You can't depart from something unless you were there. They departed from their faith, so they departed from their salvation.

Mark,

Faith that saves is the faith that works the works of God. God works in them works of obedience, righteousness and holiness. If He is not doing this then He is not working in and through them and their faith is not genuine. It either never was or they have departed from or have not continued in their faith.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. (the reason why many don't continue is because of the testing of their faith, the trials and tribulation that all go through who join Christ)

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your]mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, (You see one must overcome the tests and trials to continue in the fight of faith. It is simply ludicrous to tell people to continue in the faith if it is a given that they will and they can't help themselves. Faith does not make one a robot.) and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Man before Christ is in bondage to the condemnation of the Law. It is his slave master, jailer, for he is guilty and under the curse of the law, the wages of sin which is death.

I was taught this by God, not man. I noticed you didn't address the other issues I raised, like what happened to the unfaithful servant who was forgiven by the Lord.

Dennis

[(Omega)]

Greetings Butero!

Omega, you certainly spent a lot of time on your post. The thing is however, you by no means proved that your opinion is correct. All you did was give the point of view of those that do not believe in unconditional eternal security, and then your point of view of what you believe the verses really mean.

This thread has been going on for some time, and the arguments you have made can be found in other posts. You will also find numerous posts, including many I wrote, showing how the Bible teaches you can lose your salvation through wilful sin. It seems to me that at this point, it has become more a battle of who will have the last word on the matter, rather than one side or the other proving conclusively they are correct. That is abundantly clear by the fact that you still have not convinced the critics of your doctrine you are right, neither have those of us who don't believe as you do been able to persuade everyone we are correct. It all comes down to how one interprets scripture. In some cases, it comes down to what ministers or commentaries we put our confidence in.

I appreciate the work you put into your post. If indeed all you wrote was done so in your own words, you certainly put much time and thought into it. If that is not the case, I would be interested to know if it came out of a commentary, and if so, who the author is? If you go back and look at some of my previous posts, you will find a link to a web-site that does exactly as you have done, except from the other point of view. He gives all the arguments of those that believe in unconditional eternal security, and then shows how their interpretations are faulty.

Butero, one of the greatest errors is relying on the commentaries of others. Unless you or anyone else can prove that salvation can be lost using scriptures and in their correct context, my post which BTW are my words prove in the first several comments that salvation is secured. Now do understand first and foremost that I could care less who gets the last words, secondly even the truth cannot persuade some to open their eyes and hearts to it because they have been rooted in their belief. It does all come down to how one interprets scripture, however what you must understand is that not everyone who interprets scripture interprets it correctly. I have taken my time to study each passage hermeneutically as to avoid taking scriptures out of context, sadly there are some even when the scriptures are disected and examined exegetically, due to the fact that that they have been indoctrinated with their belief and personal opinions, they will willfully and deliberately reject it altogether. Whether you or anyone on this board who chooses to disagree must first examine the thesis with a pure heart and unbiased viewpoint. The scriptures teach us that those who called upon the Lord with genuine belief have their salvation secured, I will give you an example:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto (hemera) the day of redemption (apolutrosis). (Ephesians 4:30)

That passage teaches us that "we are sealed" (sphragizo) which denotes ownership by God Himself and which only GOD Himself is able to break, not man. The same word is used for the 144,000 found in Rev. 7:4 and Eph 1:13. In Eph 1:13 it states that "we were sealed (sphragizo)with that holy Spirit of promise" This sealing of the Holy Spirit is a guarantee of our Salvation, just as a person who seals an envelope to guarantee its enclosure. The entire context of Eph 1:13 reads as:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

In its correct context it reads, "By whom also, when you believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit". Unless a person wants to take scriptures out of context, that passage CLEARLY states that upon the commencement of our faith, we are secured by the Holy Spirit. The believer does not receive the Holy Spirit "after", but when he believes in Christ as Savior, the sealer is Christ; the seal is the Holy Spirit. In biblical times a seal denoted both identification of ownership and protection provided by the owner, a Genuine Believer cannot break a seal that God Himself have placed. Then in verse 14 of chapter 1 it reads: "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.", in other words it means (who is the guarantee of our Salvation). The Holy Spirit is called "the earnest of our inheritance", the word earnest means "down payment"; as such the gift of the Spirit is viewed as an installment or as part of our Salvation. God therefore assures the believer that the realization of the rest of his salvation is forthcoming. And how long is the believer assured of his salvation? "until the redemption of the purchased possession", which means until God glorifies and perfects the believer (the purchased possession) whom He has bought by Christ's blood. Likewise with Eph. 4:30, however in this passage it is indicating that Salvation cannot be lost because we are owned and protected by God until (the day of redemption). The same word for sealed is found in Rev. 7:4 where the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed which shows ownership and security, just as a Kings signet ring was used to authenticate and protect official documents. These 144,000 will most likely be converted and commissioned to be a light to the Gentiles during the tribulation period, however it is also likely that they may suffer persecution or even martyrdom, however they are kept by the seal of God and protected by the adversary who cannot harm the soul of the believer. Now someone who holds firm to their belief of Conditional Security will disregard this post and will use personal opinions and interpretations to establish their false teachings, I on the other hand have disected that passage in context and verified using the scriptures as a "whole" and not singling or pulling verses out of context as I have seen in this thread by many who have not studied to show themself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. I have engaged in almost a thousand Eternal Security VS Conditional Security debates, and 9.9 out of 10 times the person who is clearly incorrect in their doctrine will obstinately stand firm in their doctrine because of either pride, hardness of the heart, striving against the Holy Spirit, a deceiving heart, indoctrnation at a young age, stubborness or just plain lack of scriptural knowledge. So I leave the posters on this thread to their own and humbly bow out.

God Bless!

[RGR]

and 9.9 out of 10 times the person who is clearly incorrect in their doctrine will obstinately stand firm in their doctrine because of either pride, hardness of the heart, striving against the Holy Spirit, a deceiving heart, indoctrnation at a young age, stubborness or just plain lack of scriptural knowledge.

So now you're able to discern where someone's heart is at? I think I'd be careful because there are many (such as myself) who through prayer and study of the Scripture believe totally opposite of what you do and I for one am offended at such a broad sweeping generalization of someone who doesn't agree with your stance.

[Smalcald]

Well I am not convinced either way.

I have seen direct scripture quoted by both sides of this debate which would support their views. It is one of those areas, which is not clear. I have not hardened my heart and do not have preconceived notions about this.

My view is that it is semantics anyway, God does know who is saved and God will lose none of them. The fact that some who think they have faith now and are convinced of that, will in the end lose their faith does not mean that God's promises are not true, it simply means that many people are confused about what faith really means.

But no doubt many who think they are saved will not be saved, many who run the race will not finish, many will say to Christ we had faith, and He will say I never knew you. Were those people saved? The eternal security people will simply claim they were never

[dgolvach]

How much sin does it take to get "un-saved"?

Dan

[Smalcald]

Hi Dan,

It has nothing to do with sin; it has to do with faith. Living a life contrary to the will of God would be filled with sin, and it would indicate a lack of true faith. Having an intellectual faith is not faith. Many people say they believe in God, but let the cares of this world and their own lack of true faith overwhelm this belief, in the end they are not saved. As far as sin goes we can see the sins of the flesh listed in Galatians by Paul, he specifically mentions what he is talking about and states that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

But all sin can be repented of and forgiven and a believer would want to do that. Of course consider what repentance means. Repentance is an action, not a feeling. If I cheat on my wife, and wait to repent until after I have dumped her and married my new women, that is not repentance and no forgiveness is available, unless I seek reconciliation with my first and true wife. None of this is easy. Forgiveness requires repentance and sorrow for sin, not a happy feeling of having gotten away with something this time. Planned repentance is not repentance.

So I think the danger is that people have a sweet feeling of getting along with the world, then when judgement comes they hear those horrible words which will be spoken to many who thought they had faith, depart from Me I never knew you. This is something I wrestle with every single day.

[Remnantrob]

How much sin does it take to get "un-saved"?

Dan

Didn't Jesus say something about 70 times 7 and then you can stop forgiving... I'm kidding