Name That King! Revealing the Beast.

[The Light]

On 6/4/2020 at 2:20 PM, WilliamL said:

There is absolutely no biblical testimony that says what you say. It is all your presumption.

Actually there is plenty of Biblical scriptural support in what I say, as I like to deal in facts. Anytime that you would like to present some scriptural evidence that proves that I am incorrect, I will be happy to address it.

 

[DeighAnn]

On 6/5/2020 at 6:08 AM, iamlamad said:

You are pulling Luke 10:18 OUT OF CONTEXT. (Just so you know.) We must understand each scripture IN ITS GIVEN CONTEXT. 

So what did Jesus see in Luke? What is the context? First it was Jesus casting out devils - destroying Satan's kingdom.  Then Jesus sent out 12 to cast out devils. But here Jesus sent out 70 or 72 people to cast out devils. It was then that Jesus saw Satan fall. WHY was Satan seen falling at that time? It is simple: Satan had to come and see for Himself that now 70 people were casting out devils. His fear was probably that soon it would be HUNDREDS casting out devils - destroying his work.  But I get your picture: this might have been what John saw, only many falling. My guess is, demonic spirits. It is the start of the Day of the Lord. Satan is going to need a LOT of reinforcement! 

Question: IS there a "coming" at the 6th seal? If so, WHEN?

If we study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, we KNOW that is a "coming." Paul uses that very word. But WHEN? People have argued this over many years. The question is, does Paul TELL US when? I submit he does: He tells us that the first event will be JESUS COMING (to the air, not to the ground). Next, the dead in Christ suddenly FLY UP out of their graves. WHEN? When people are saying "peace and safety:" a day just like today. 

When God raises the dead, Matthew shows us there will be an earthquake (Matthew 27: the earth did quake...and the graves were opened). So when God raises the dead in Christ, that raising will cause a WORLD WIDE earthquake, for the dead in Christ will be found world wide. This earthquake will be Paul's "sudden destruction." 

Next, those alive in in Christ will be caught up, but AT THE SAME TIME, those left behind experience the sudden destruction. Since it is worldwide, no one can escape it. Then Paul tells us this sudden destruction is God's wrath. That is the START of God's wrath.  Paul also told us it is the start of the Day of the Lord. Day of the Lord, or Day of His wrath - same thing. 

All we need do it look in Revelation and see where God's wrath begins. Just search John's first use of "wrath." You will find that the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath BEGINS at the 6th seal. This is the ONLY PLACE in Revelation that Paul's rapture fits. And it fits perfectly because the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age, and they are told judgment (wrath?) must wait for the very last martyr to be killed as they were - as church age martyrs. 

So what will be the "trigger" for the 6th seal? It will be HIS COMING: as seen in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. His coming will be to call up the church, but at the same time, the rapture will then be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord. 

His coming
Rapture
Day of the Lord

So, Yes, I do see His coming, but NOT in the stars: I see it in scripture.  Look: we both know a REAL star cannot fall to earth or earth would cease to exist. This is symbolic of something else. It could be John saw shooting stars. It could be He saw angels or demons coming to earth from the heavenly realms. Note John was making a comparison: AS untimely figs blown from a tree in a high wind. But he is speaking of the bring lights falling (as in shooting stars?) or as you suggested, as Jesus saw Satan falling from the sky. 

CAN YOU GIVE any scripture for  MEN  being able to  "... destroying Satan's kingdom"?  

Then Jesus sent out 12 to cast out devils. But here Jesus sent out 70 or 72 people to cast out devils.
"It was then that Jesus saw Satan fall". 


Could you give me scripture that says that SATAN WAS CAST OUT RIGHT THEN?  
Certainly,  if Satan fell to earth at that time, then Satans tribulation would have been BEGUN way back  THEN.  


It is simple: Satan had to come and see for Himself "
WHERE IS THIS WRITTEN?
 

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.

 

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

And that is why I believe

Jesus is  RIGHT HERE GIVING US POWER OVER SATAN WHEN HE SHALL BE CAST TO EARTH.  HE BEHELD SATAN FALLING "NOT GOING TO AND FRO", SO SATAN WAS NOT ON HIS OWN ACCORD "COMING TO CHECK IT OUT". 

Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

There is a coming at the 6th seal alright but IT ISN'T OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR.  WHEN our Lord and Saviour comes it will be as Lord of lords and King of kings for the day of vengeance.  Satan going down.  

JESUS is not returning with an army to get "some flesh men" changing them to be forever with the Lord and flying them off to Heaven to either

1 fight Satan and his angels

OR

2 have a wedding while on earth tribulation as was never.... is going on.  ESPECIALLY BECAUSE 

Deuteronomy 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

JESUS WAS TESTED AND PROVED BEFORE THE NEW COVENANT WAS made through HIS BLOOD.

Psalm 11
1 In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?
2 For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart.
3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?
4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
 

Psalm 26:1 Judge me, O LORD; for I have walked in mine integrity: I have trusted also in the LORD; therefore I shall not slide.

Psalm 26:2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.

Psalm 26:3 For thy lovingkindness is before mine eyes: and I have walked in thy truth.
 

Isaiah 48:1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

Isaiah 48:2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.

Isaiah 48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

Isaiah 48:4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;

Isaiah 48:5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

Isaiah 48:6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

Isaiah 48:7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.

Isaiah 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

Isaiah 48:9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.


Many other places GOD has described the who what where when whys of who HE.  The same yesterday and today.  

THERE IS NO REASON FOR A PRE TRIB RAPTURE.  IT SERVES NO PURPOSE.  THE ONLY PURPOSE IT WOULD SERVE WOULD BE IF GOD WERE INCAPABLE OF PROTECTING THOSE WHO LOVE HIM FROM HIS OWN WRATH.  BUT HE GAVE US THE QUESTIONS TO THE TEST.  THEN HE GAVE US THE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS AND TOLD US TO LEARN IT AND WE WILL NOT SUFFER ANY OF HIS WRATH.  
THERE IS NOT A CHANCE IN ALL CREATION THAT GOD CAN NOT/WILL NOT  DO ALL HE SAYS.  
WHEN GOD MAKES A PROMISE, YOU CAN BET IT ALL,  THAT ON GODS END, THAT IS EXACTLY AS IT WILL BE.  

DANIEL.  

Daniel 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.

Daniel 3:20 And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.

Daniel 3:21 Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

Daniel 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego.

Daniel 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

Daniel 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellers, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Daniel 3:26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

Daniel 3:27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellers, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

Daniel 3:29 Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort.

Daniel 3:30 Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, in the province of Babylon.

 

1 THESS 4 and 5  YES, the coming of Christ, the return of Christ, our loved ones returning with Christ.  

THERE ARE TWO BODIES.  And earthly body, for an earthly age.  THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS COMING.  IT IS A SPIRITUAL KINGDOM.  

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. (dust, clay, flesh, earth bodies - which HOUSE both the good and the wicked souls.  WHEN either ones flesh dies, their soul in their spiritual body goes on to "paradise" to one side or the other.  ALL.  NOT ONE SOUL REMAINS IN THE FLESH.  GOD HAS GIVEN US ALL TWO BODIES.  

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

THE FLESH BODY GOES INTO A HOLE IN THE GROUND.  THE SPIRITUAL BODY RETURNS TO GOD.

Something about "replenishing the earth" with flesh.  

Matthew 22:27 And last of all the woman died also.

Matthew 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

NOT ONE SOUL HAD DIED.  NOT ONE.  NOT EVEN THE ONLY ONE WHO SO FAR HAS BEEN NAMED BY NAME TO PERISH.  GOD IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING.  BE THEY IN THIS BODY OR THAT.  BUT THE END OF FLESH IS QUICKLY APPROACHING.  

THE FLESH BODY DIES BUT "WE" OUR SOULS DO NOT.  Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


CAN YOU REALLY IMAGINE SPENDING ETERNITY IN A CORRUPTIBLE BODY?  HOW COULD THAT EVER BE "JUST" ? YOU HAVE SOME SOULS WHO  NEVER AGE, NEVER GET SICK, NEVER GET HURT, NEVER BREAK DOWN LIVING AMONGST THOSE WHO DO.  FOR ETERNITY?  HOW MANY SOULS DO YOU THINK GOD CREATED?  OR DO YOU THINK THAT "WE" ARE NOT GODS CREATION BUT JUST A COMBINING OF PERISHABLE FLESH?  IF THAT WERE TRUE THEN HOW COULD GOD HAVE

 

Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

That ISN'T God saying before I formed thee in the belly "I knew what you would do"
OR ELSE THAT IS WHAT GOD WOULD HAVE SAID. 
THE WORD OF THE LORD SAID, THE WORD OF THE LORD MEANT "I KNEW YOU".  





THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY ALREADY AT WORK - FAMINE FOR THE WORD OF GOD - GODS ELECT BEING SEALED
WAR IN HEAVEN  -  SATAN CAST OUT
THE  TRIBULATION OF SATAN
CHRISTS RETURN - THE CUP POURED OUT
DAY OF THE LORD - MILLENNIUM - SATAN BOUND
1000 YRS LATER SATAN LOOSED
GOG AND MAGOG
LAKE OF FIRE - SECOND DEATH
IT IS DONE

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

RENEWED HEAVEN AND EARTH -  NO EVIL

THERE ARE MISTAKES WHICH WHEN YOU POINT OUT I WILL FIX, MAYBE

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What does Paul say here: first, it is a COMING of the Lord - a coming FOR His saints. 

How can Christ return if he doesn't come back??  

Example.  I am at my dads house.  I leave to go home.  I am going to return.  I come back.  

While I was gone an evil person showed up at dads house.  When I return, when I come back,  I am going to destroy him.

You read the Word as if it is written in some secret code so deep that to get to the Truth you have to decipher between words with the same meaning,  meaning different things, EVEN THOUGH the are statements in direct opposition to it.  Which can only lead to 

The Church, body of Christ that fitted together, ,no greek no jew, all Abrahams seed, 

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Now at some point, some how, the body of Christ is DIVIDED?  How can that be?  Where is scripture for that?  

Jesus foretold us all things.  Where did He tell us that?

The way you tell it those who "say" they love the Lord, without any sort of testing are given their immortality, are whisked away to a wedding to be followed by receiving all the same promises that those who  

meanwhile (Gods Elect) are to  stand, overcome and endure to the end, during which some are being given up to death for 10 days of tribulation. 

What happen to the "sitting at the right hand till enemies made footstool" or "I will never leave you nor forsake you"?  Seems He would be otherwise engaged at that time.  And seriously, is the wedding before or after the war in heaven?  And why are our loved ones coming with Christ and an army just to pick up "a part of the now being divided church?  And how is that part of the church 'Not Gathered' for this "rapsure"?  Or is Paul addressing just a part of the church?  If he was it would seem like he would have made mention of it.  

The mystery of iniquity is really putting together quite the beast.  Finding Gods Truth has become impossible through all the doctrines being set forth.  What I ALSO find weird it that God even calls us little children.  Shoot, God calls us what is basically stupid.  You would think that He would have kept the letter He wrote to us simple without "super secret special, get out of tribulation free" knowledge.  

I just remembered another question.  What false doctrines do you think God is describing here?

Ezekiel 13:7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

Ezekiel 13:8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 13:10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

Ezekiel 13:11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

Ezekiel 13:12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?

Ezekiel 13:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.

Ezekiel 13:14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 13:15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;

Ezekiel 13:16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

Ezekiel 13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

Ezekiel 13:19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Ezekiel 13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

Ezekiel 13:23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

I look forward to your point of view on this but as for me, I see

Slay the souls who should not die -  that "Left Behind" Doctrine. 

 and to save the souls alive that should not live - and when i read that I go to the descriptions in Revelation of the Churches and think "Really? This group is going to be the bride of Christ", WITHOUT the testing, or standing or overcoming or enduring to the end, (WELL, I guess,  at least not for part of them).  

wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly.  -   A doctrine where you "judge yourself saved" then fly off to a Heavenly wedding.


Saints  -   set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred.  

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

How can Christ return if he doesn't come back??  

Example.  I am at my dads house.  I leave to go home.  I am going to return.  I come back.  

While I was gone an evil person showed up at dads house.  When I return, when I come back,  I am going to destroy him.

You read the Word as if it is written in some secret code so deep that to get to the Truth you have to decipher between words with the same meaning,  meaning different things, EVEN THOUGH the are statements in direct opposition to it.  Which can only lead to 

The Church, body of Christ that fitted together, ,no greek no jew, all Abrahams seed, 

Perhaps we are disagreeing only on terms. When "coming" is mentioned, it is from EARTH'S perspective. He left, He went back to heaven to build homes for us. "Return" means the same as coming, since He was here once, and will "return" when He "comes." Yes, we could also say Christ is coming BACK to earth: but for the rapture, ONLY TO THE AIR - which makes this next coming different from His 3rd coming shown to us in Rev. 19 - His coming on a white horse. That also shows a different coming: He is not on a white horse when He comes FOR His church. 

No, sorry, no secret code. But we do have to understand it - and sometimes that is difficult - as shown by the book of Revelation: I am convinced, if you lined up a hundred pastors that actually teach Revelation and ask the 100 a question from Revelation, you would end up getting at least 101 answers: because at least one is not sure and wavers between to theories. If Revelation was easy, one would get 100 answers all the same.

And example: In chapters 4 & 5, God is telling a story, but 99.9% of people miss the intent. 

John saw a throne with the Father on the throne, but did NOT see Jesus at the right hand of the Father - yet - we have over a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been.  WHY? WHY was Jesus not seen?

Next, John saw the Holy Spirit there in the throne room, but again, we would expect, in 95 AD, that the Holy Spirit would have been sent down.  WHY? WHY is the Holy Spirit still there?

Finally, John watched a search being made for someone worthy to take the book and open the seals (95 AD) yet, the search ended in failure: "NO man was found." (Keep in mind, this is EXACTLY what God chose to show to John.) WHY? What was Jesus not found in this first search?  You see, Jesus asked me those questions and I could not answer even one of them! He said to me: "Unless you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this part of john's vision."

Before this, I have never given ONE THOUGH to Jesus not being seen at the right hand of the Father when John saw this throne room in the vision. Nor one thought as to why the Holy Spirit was there when He should have been sent down (it was 95 AD) Neither did I ever wonder WHY "no man was found." 

Next, it seems another search was made, and this time JESUS was found. Then John saw Jesus ascended into the throne room when a second before He was not there. And immediately Jesus arrives, and the Holy Spirit is sent down. Then Jesus gets the book into HIS hands. HE is the only one qualified to open the seals. The big question is, WHEN?

So WHAT is God trying to tell us in these two chapters? These two chapters are the CONTEXT of the first seal. Yet, most people form a theory on the first seal and totally IGNORE this context.

You see, God had what we would consider a problem: He wanted to (and chose to) introduce John to this book with 7 seals. But God chose to start His introduction to the book white the book was still in the Hand of the Father. This was 95 AD and the book was still in the Father's hand before Christ ascended. Somehow, God had to show John timing in these two chapters: what TIME it was when Jesus got the book out of the Father's hands. 

God chose to show John a throne room of the past: a time when Jesus was still on earth. (That is why He was not seen at the right hand of the Father.  That is also why the Holy Spirit was still there: Jesus had not at this time (chapter 4) ascended.  Next, God showed John a search for one worthy that ended in failure. WHY did that search end in failure? It is because at that moment in time, Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. Shortly after this first search, Jesus DID rise from the dead, and was then found worthy to take the book.  So the timing between the two "searches" was when Jesus rose from the dead. 

Next, John saw Jesus ascended. WHEN? Right after He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. He sent Mary away and then ascended, and John got to see that moment in time in the vision. And then immediately Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down. WHEN? Circa  32 AD or so. 

This then is the context of the first seal: the timing of 32 AD. For all then that assume the first seal is the Antichrist - you are 2000 years off in your theory.  So: is this a secret code? No, it is all there in black and white, but difficult to get the Author's intent UNLESS the Author is teaching.  You see, Jesus ASKED me those three questions, and I could not answer: I struggled for maybe two months trying to answer them. He had previously spoke and said those two chapters showed "Timing" and "the movement of time." I could not answer His three questions, nor could I see timing or even any movement of time. I was SLOW!  Finally, He sent me to chapter 12 to find the answers. 

Yes, you are right, IN CHRIST (in the realm of the Spirit) once people are born again, they are brothers in Christ and neither Jew nor Greek." However, I still have a flesh and blood body and in the flesh I am very much a GENTILE. And completed Jew in the flesh is very much a JEW. But what of all those NOT in Christ? They are Jews, and they are Greeks or Gentiles. God was certainly not afraid to call us Gentiles:

Romans 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

This is where we are now: waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles. 

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Now at some point, some how, the body of Christ is DIVIDED?  How can that be?  Where is scripture for that?  

Jesus foretold us all things.  Where did He tell us that?

The way you tell it those who "say" they love the Lord, without any sort of testing are given their immortality, are whisked away to a wedding to be followed by receiving all the same promises that those who  
 

during which some are being given up to death for 10 days of tribulation. 

What happen to the "sitting at the right hand till enemies made footstool" or "I will never leave you nor forsake you"?  Seems He would be otherwise engaged at that time.  And seriously, is the wedding before or after the war in heaven?  And why are our loved ones coming with Christ and an army just to pick up "a part of the now being divided church?  And how is that part of the church 'Not Gathered' for this "rapsure"?  Or is Paul addressing just a part of the church?  If he was it would seem like he would have made mention of it.  

The mystery of iniquity is really putting together quite the beast.  Finding Gods Truth has become impossible through all the doctrines being set forth.  What I ALSO find weird it that God even calls us little children.  Shoot, God calls us what is basically stupid.  You would think that He would have kept the letter He wrote to us simple without "super secret special, get out of tribulation free" knowledge.  

I just remembered another question.  What false doctrines do you think God is describing here?

Ezekiel 13:7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?

Ezekiel 13:8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 13:10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

Ezekiel 13:11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

Ezekiel 13:12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?

Ezekiel 13:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.

Ezekiel 13:14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 13:15 Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;

Ezekiel 13:16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

Ezekiel 13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

Ezekiel 13:19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Ezekiel 13:21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

Ezekiel 13:23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

I look forward to your point of view on this but as for me, I see

Slay the souls who should not die -  that "Left Behind" Doctrine. 

 and to save the souls alive that should not live - and when i read that I go to the descriptions in Revelation of the Churches and think "Really? This group is going to be the bride of Christ", WITHOUT the testing, or standing or overcoming or enduring to the end, (WELL, I guess,  at least not for part of them).  

wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly.  -   A doctrine where you "judge yourself saved" then fly off to a Heavenly wedding.


Saints  -   set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred.  

Now at some point, some how, the body of Christ is DIVIDED?  How can that be?  Where is scripture for that?    Rememeber: God is waiting for the fullness of the GENTILES?  The church of today is mostly a Gentile church in the flesh. 

The way you tell it those who "say" they love the Lord, without any sort of testing  Whoa back, sister! First, the rapture is ONLY for those born again: that is "In Christ." Second, every believe is tested almost as soon as they are born again. We are chastised as children, by the written word of God. Our flesh may want to do something very badly, but our spirit person knows it is SIN so hopefully we don't do it. Can you find a verse where God tells us we must be tested? Our FAITH gets tested to be sure. But that does not require tribulation. Yet, the church age IS tribulation. Neither does God require a testing in His wrath. He is setting NO appointments for us.

meanwhile (Gods Elect) are to  stand, overcome and endure to the end,  Question: WHY will anyone have to "endure to the end" when God tells us there is an escape? (And there really IS an escape: it is the pretrib rapture.) People must endure to the end BECAUSE THEY CHOSE NOT TO ESCAPE. It is God's fault they chose not to escape? He is standing, so to speak, with arms open wide begging people to come while there is still time.  You cannot rewrite the end times scriptures for compassion's sake: God has FAR more compassion than any of us, and He has decreed that some must endure to the end. He would FAR rather they be ready and be caught up before that time of enduring. God is a perfect Gentleman and will not force anyone. If they reject Jesus - either Jew or Greek - before the rapture, they are going to be left behind. It is as simple as that.

"sitting at the right hand till enemies made footstool"  Let's see: what was the last enemy to be defeated? Oh yes, it was DEATH.  This is a non sequitur. 

Compare "I will never leave you" with "it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them..." 

Question: when the saints are being "overcome" (think beheading) is Jesus going to forsake them?" NO! NEVER! He will grant great grace to overcome fear. BOTH of these phrases are TRUTH of God's word. The saints left behind ARE (most certainly) going to be overcome: it is just as much God's word as "I will never leave you." 

God's PERFECT plan is that all are ready when Jesus comes pretrib FOR His saints. But all will not be ready. Only a very small minority of those alive at the rapture will be caught up. 

So God's good plan is, when any saints are overcome, He will be with them. God has ALWAYS been with His people through persecution. I think it was John Huss: burned at the stake. He told the brethren, "if I can stand it, I will hold up one thumb." Right in the fire, he held up BOTH thumbs. 

seriously, is the wedding before or after the war in heaven?   Are you kidding, asking such a question?  What chapter is the war in heaven? Chapter 12. What chapter is the marriage? Chapter 19. Does 19 come after 12?  Yes. The war comes first (at the midpoint of the week) and the marriage after - after the entire week has ended. 

Axiom on Revelation: events in any give chapter will come AFTER the events of previous chapter but BEFORE events in later chapters.  

And why are our loved ones coming with Christ and an army just to pick up "a part of the now being divided church?  Say WHAT? I will answer with a question: why make this difficult? We are taken to heaven to avoid His wrath poured out. We come back to earth after His wrath because our work as judges will be on earth. See how simple that was? You are mistaken anyway: Jesus comes WITH the saints - ALL OF THEM: there is no one to "pick up." Even those beheaded are resurrected BEFORE Christ returns to earth as shown in REv. 19. (The final resurrection for the righteous will probably be at the 7th vial that ends the 70th week. That will included the Old Testament saints, and those beheaded during the week. Jesus coming is two chapters later, AFTER the events of chapters 17 and 19 and the marriage have been accomplished. 

is Paul addressing just a part of the church?  Paul's letters are for ALL WHO READ. Sadly, most of those left behind will be left behind because they had no desire to read the bible. If they had read, chances are they would not be left behind. 

Finding Gods Truth has become impossible through all the doctrines being set forth.  No, it is not impossible. But it is impossible using man's reasoning. We need the Holy Spirit as our teacher. Again, sadly, few understand how to get Him to teach.  The secret is to read a passage over and over, not trying to understand it, (maybe a hundred times) all the while praying in the Holy Ghost. When people do this, God begins revealing knowledge about that passage. (Again, sadly, few can pray in the Holy Ghost.)

You would think that He would have kept the letter He wrote to us simple without "super secret special, get out of tribulation free" knowledge.    WE have what He has given us: I can assure you, He EXPECTS us to understand it.

What false doctrines do you think God is describing here?  No "false doctrine." He is speaking of false prophets. In verse 16 He tells us:

16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

Again we must consider TIMING:  We are told to PRAY for the Peace of Jerusalem. But at that time, due to Israel's continual bowing to false Gods, they were carried away to Babylon - including Ezekiel. 

The rest, talking about making souls fly: it is speaking of witchcraft. it is certainly NOT speaking against the rapture. 

Slay the souls who should not die -  that "Left Behind" Doctrine.   What if "left behind is TRUTH? Where will that leave you? It should be VERY EASY to see that the dead in Christ FLY up out of their graves under the power of the Holy Spirit, and then those alive and in Christ FLY UP to join the first group, caught up by the very same Holy Spirit.  Perhaps your doctrine is against the Holy Spirit. Think about it!

A doctrine where you "judge yourself saved" then fly off to a Heavenly wedding.  If you don't WANT to Go, I am quite certain God will leave you behind. But I am also sure that a few seconds after the rapture will be very very sorry.  

Look: if ANYONE "fly off to heaven" it is going to be under the HOLY SPIRIT'S power. Are you going to continue to argue against HIM?  Is that wise?  There are no commercial flights there! 

I really don't know why you hate Paul's rapture so much. It could be dangerous.  

Heb. 9:²⁸ So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Question: are you looking for HIS APPEARING (like tonight?) or is your faith in a place where you are going are expecting to see something else BEFORE His appearing? 

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

CAN YOU GIVE any scripture for  MEN  being able to  "... destroying Satan's kingdom"?

 Then Jesus sent out 12 to cast out devils. But here Jesus sent out 70 or 72 people to cast out devils.
"It was then that Jesus saw Satan fall". 

Could you give me scripture that says that SATAN WAS CAST OUT RIGHT THEN?  
Certainly,  if Satan fell to earth at that time, then Satans tribulation would have been BEGUN way back  THEN.  

It is simple: Satan had to come and see for Himself "
WHERE IS THIS WRITTEN?

CAN YOU GIVE any scripture for  MEN  being able to  "... destroying Satan's kingdom"?

 Have you not read? 

Mark 16:¹⁷ And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils.....

Every time a devil is cast out, it is destroying a part of Satan's kingdom.  Dominic spirits fight like the devil himself to stay IN. I have worked for 8 hours to cast out a devil. It could be the devil worked on someone for YEARS to get a demonic spirit inside him. He, the devil, certainly does not want a believe to destroy years of work. The devil's kingdom is all of earth for now. He is the god of this world. Anything evil, such as demonic activity is a part of his kingdom. Anything we do for God, even getting someone born again, and coming against Satan's kingdom. 

 

Mark 1:24

Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

 

Romans 6:6

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

1 John 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

Jesus mentioned Satan when it was probably a demon:

 

Luke 13:16

And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

 

Could you give me scripture that says that SATAN WAS CAST OUT RIGHT THEN?

 Satan WAS NOT cast out right then! That was my point.  Satan, as god of this world, has free reign to travel the heavenly realms (atmosphere and maybe even beyond that) (Spirits in high places according to Paul). In this case, according to the context, He was probably WORRIED that now 70 people were casting out devils: not one (as in Jesus) and not 12 (as in the disciples) but now 70. I am convinced Satan was coming to see this for himself. He had evidently been in those "high places" but fell down to earth (just the way they travel) to see for himself.  ("Fall"  is in a shooting star falling to earth.) NOT "cast out."

 

if Satan fell to earth at that time, then Satans tribulation would have been BEGUN way back  THEN.  

  No, that is just human reasoning. 

 

WHERE IS THIS WRITTEN?

Does it HAVE to be spelled out for you? Go back and read the story again. Maybe ask Jesus why Satan was coming to earth at that time. It seems very obvious to me. Read the entire passage.  There is absolutely nothing in the context about it being time for Satan to be cast out or down.  The context is the 70 casting out devils. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

found any more in heaven.  (This is speaking of the 2nd heaven: our atmosphere, NOT where God lives.)

So what is the time here? When is it that Satan gets cast down from the heavenly realms?  Did you  read what came before this war? In Chapter 11 we read, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.." At the 7th trumpet - that will mark the midpoint of the week -  The kingdoms of the world are stripped from Satan and given to Jesus Christ.  This is in our future and has NOTHING to do with what Jesus saw when He sent the 70 out. 

Then, there is this:

Rev 12:³ And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. ⁴ And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

Most commentaries say this was when Satan was originally cast down from the 3rd heaven. He convinced a third of the angels to follow him. 

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And that is why I believe

Jesus is  RIGHT HERE GIVING US POWER OVER SATAN WHEN HE SHALL BE CAST TO EARTH.  HE BEHELD SATAN FALLING "NOT GOING TO AND FRO", SO SATAN WAS NOT ON HIS OWN ACCORD "COMING TO CHECK IT OUT". 

What does Jesus giving us power right now over Satan, have to do with Jesus seeing Satan drop down from heaven?  What all would you include in "to and fro?" Or "walking up and down..." Would these words PREVENT Satan from visiting his spirits in high places? You know the answer is "no." 

Ephesians 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

Have you not read the book, Placebo, but Howard Pittman? He SAW demonic spirits in high places. 

Remember in the book of Daniel how the angel Gabriel had to fight for 21 days the wicked spirits in the atmosphere preventing Gabriel from getting through to Daniel? Michael came to assist. Satan's "seat" may well be on earth or under the earth, but Satan is free to travel where he chooses. 

 

You can believe anything. You have that freedom.

Edited June 7, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

There is a coming at the 6th seal alright but IT ISN'T OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR.  WHEN our Lord and Saviour comes it will be as Lord of lords and King of kings for the day of vengeance.  Satan going down.  

Yes, OF COURSE Jesus will come as King of Kings. But why hide one coming to promote another? He is also coming only TO THE AIR.

1 Thes. 

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Make no mistake: Paul's rapture is a COMING: but He will stop in the clouds in the air. This is one (1)  coming. It will be just before wrath. And when does God's wrath begin? At the 6th seal.  This coming has no white horses. No need for this coming is not for war.

This is another coming: After the entire 70th week is over: It is a coming on white horses.

Rev. 19

 

¹¹ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

¹² His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

¹³ And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

¹⁴ And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

¹⁵ And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

These two comings just can't be compared because they are two different comings for two different purposes. 
The next coming will be for the purpose of removing the saints for earth during the time of His wrath. 
The purpose of His coming to Armageddon is to TAKE OVER the PLANET!  

Again, why hide one coming to promote another? There will be TWO MORE comings, each as equally important and BOTH scriptural.  First He will come FOR His saints: but He cannot and will not leave them in heaven, We will return to earth WITH HIM.  (one of the armies.) Who knows? We may be given swords. We WILL BE on white horses. 

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

JESUS is not returning with an army to get "some flesh men" changing them to be forever with the Lord and flying them off to Heaven to either

1 fight Satan and his angels

OR

2 have a wedding while on earth tribulation as was never.... is going on.  ESPECIALLY BECAUSE 

Why fight against written scripture? Jesus IS returning with the armies of heaven. 

¹⁴ And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Why deny what is written?

Why fight against 1 thes. 4? It is in scripture. It IS a coming, and it is a coming FOR "flesh men." But it is also to CHANGE US from flesh and blood to flesh and bone. Flesh and blood bodies do not go to heaven. 

Armageddon is going to be Jesus and the armies of heaven against flesh and blood men. It is not going to last long.  A Jewish boy that died and went to heaven, saw the end of this age play out as if one a big screen. He came back to His body after perhaps 15 minutes or so. He saw that 70 nations sent armies to Israel for Armageddon.  That is going to be millions and millions of soldiers losing their lives.

As for the marriage and supper: can we just believe John?

 

⁷ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

⁸ And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

⁹ And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

¹⁰ And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

¹¹ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

¹² His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

¹³ And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

¹⁴ And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Which came first in John's narrative: the marriage or the descent to Armageddon?

Those that believe John KNOW that the marriage and supper will take place in HEAVEN. 

Of course this makes a posttrib rapture impossible: no way to get to the marriage.

By the way, the wedding is not until chapter 19: the week is over in chapter 16.