Are you nice and comfy in your Christian life?

[OneLight]

5 hours ago, Alive said:

Hey brother--just got back in.

I do not believe that is is possible for a son of God to become a non-son of God. I am familiar with all of the scripture that people use to say different.

I do not think that is what they are telling us.

I do believe that it is possible for there to be a great deal of loss and correction for a true son, but a son never loses his sonship.

Shall we go through each parable so you can show me where scripture is not talking about what is being said?   If you would like, lets start with:

Matthew 18:21-35

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

It seem here that Jesus is telling us that though we have been forgiven a debt that we could never pay, it will be revoked if we don't forgive others as we have been forgiven.  What do you see when you read this parable?

[OneLight]

20 minutes ago, David1701 said:

52 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Romans 11 speaks about spiritual Israel, not John 15.  John 15 speaks about being in Christ, which is what Jesus had been talking about for some time prior to this lesson.

Jesus is speaking to his (Jewish) disciples, in John 15.

The lesson has nothing to do with the audience.  If that were the case, we could just ignore everything before Paul's writings as it was not spoken to the Gentiles.

20 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Regarding their fruit bearing, see the following verse.

John 15:16 (ESV) You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

This is another lesson all together different.  Let's look at it in context, shall we? John 15:9-17

As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.  If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.  This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.  You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.  No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.  You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.  These things I command you, that you love one another.

Notice that Jesus said we are to abide in His love, which is in contrast to the branch spoken of in John 15:6 that did not abide in Him at all.  Only those who abide in Him will bear fruit as the parable you are referencing states. 

20 minutes ago, David1701 said:

There is only ONE exception to that, out of the 12 disciples (i.e. he was the only dry branch that bore no fruit) and that was Judas Iscariot (he was fore-ordained to hell, being the son of perdition).  He was an evil man, who stole money from the bag for the poor and betrayed the Lord (again for money) to the Pharisees, then had remorse (not repentance) for his wicked betrayal and committed suicide.

Judas was "in Christ", because Christ chose him to be one of his disciples, part of the band of 12; but, Judas had no life in him, he was dead as a door nail and exceedingly evil.  Of course the Lord knew that Judas was evil and chose him to fulfil the role of "betrayer", in his crucifixion.

I would disagree that Judas was in Christ, but Jesus chose Judas to fulfill prophecy found in Zechariah 11:12–13.

20 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Quote

Again, John is not talking about hardening ones heart, but repetitive sinning.  Care to show me how this applies to all the parables I listed and the 7 churches?

Everyone's life is either characterised by sin, or by righteousness.  He is either a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness.  Everyone who has been born again CANNOT return to being a slave to sin, because he has a new spirit that is incorruptible and because He who has begun a good work in us, will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

How do you read James 5:19-20 then?  What about the lessons in the parables I mentioned before?

20 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Quote

Yes, just skip over the real issues spoken about by Jesus to the churches.  That is usually what happens when it comes to discussing how a believer can turn from God.  It is ignored and the subject is redirected.  Nobody is even discussing how Jesus will always leave us a way out of any issue we find ourselves in.  That's not the problem at all and nobody has even suggested this is not true.  Ask yourself what it is that would even move Jesus to give such warnings and you will see what I am trying to discuss here.

I went straight to the answer, omitting the working, to save time.  I ignored nothing and did not re-direct the subject.

Overcoming is not a "way out"!  Overcoming is what God works in his born-again ones, by his Holy Spirit.  Did you not read the Scripture from 1 John that I quoted?  Everyone who has been born of God DOES overcome.  There are no exceptions.

1 John 5:4 (ESV) For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith.

In other words, you are not kept saved by making yourself sufficiently faithful, or by keeping yourself from becoming hardened (these would be salvation by works); rather, you are kept by the power of God, through the faith he has given you, unto salvation.

Yes, you did in fact bypass the warning of Jesus to the churches, 5 out of 7 that is.  There is always a way out, as shown in 1 Corinthians 10:13

No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Yet, in Jesus' message to the churches He did not indicate that all who He addresses will overcome.  Some may of chosen to ignore the way of escape God provided and not repent, bringing onto them the condemnation spoken of. 

May I ask if you see yourself in a position that you will never be held accountable for your actions or words?  I ask only because it is not clear to me how you believe at this point.

[Don19]

32 minutes ago, OneLight said:

So there is no confusion, are you really saying the below scripture really doesn't mean what it says?  We were not talking about why God changes His mind, but that He did change His mind.  Let's not get sidetracked on what the discussion is about.  I don't like rabbit holes.

 

What the discussion is about? The real issue is your erroneous interpretation of the Revelation passage to mean the possibility of a loss of eternal salvation. Even if God, as the sovereign First Cause of all things (Col 1:16), could change His mind in response to His creatures--which He cannot, as I've shown--He has bound Himself by His promises. He swore an oath to upload His promise of salvation. As He could swear by nothing greater than Himself, He swore by Himself.

Hebrews 6:13-20:

13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 

Read that again: immutability of His counsel. Immutable = unchangeable.

Now to whom is "the promise"?

Ephesians 1:13-14:

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

The Holy Spirit applies the promise to the individual. Christ calls His sheep by name (John 10:3). The promise is to individuals, not just a collective.

Titus 1:2:

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

 

But if the inheritance be of LAW then it is no more of PROMISE (Gal 3:18). In other words, it is unconditional. I've tried to show you how the New Covenant is unconditional and wholly promissory, unlike the Old Covenant. However, if you do not accept that, then you will not understand all the texts you referenced, and how the New Covenant precludes any repentance from God as to His promise of eternal life. So we can look back on the possibility of God "repenting" in the context of the conditional covenant, and see how such a thing is impossible in the unconditional covenant.

 

32 minutes ago, OneLight said:

You have to be the very first person I have ever come across who does not see John 3:16 as an offer for salvation.  I have to admit, I am not comfortable with your theology at all.

That's funny. Your whole thread was about folks being too comfortable in their Christian lives...

Well, we should be comfortable about the security of our salvation. But there are other, lesser things that we can be uncomfortable about.

Nothing comforting about the thought of God changing His mind or the possibility of losing salvation. Thankfully, He doesn't change His mind, and He will surely uphold His promise of eternal life. His gifts are without repentance (Rom 11:29).

32 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I take it you are a die hard Calvinist who believes only a chosen few are offered salvation, the rest of His creation, who He created in His image, are created only for damnation.  Am I correct here or would you like to clarify your stance on salvation better?

Proverbs 16:4:

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Romans 9:19-23:

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

[Alive]

11 hours ago, OneLight said:

Shall we go through each parable so you can show me where scripture is not talking about what is being said?   If you would like, lets start with:

Matthew 18:21-35

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

It seem here that Jesus is telling us that though we have been forgiven a debt that we could never pay, it will be revoked if we don't forgive others as we have been forgiven.  What do you see when you read this parable?

@OneLight

Jesus came to fulfill the law or to satisfy the requirement of the law. I believe he was teaching just how difficult it is to truly live by the 'principle' of law. An impossibly high bar to reach. I can make a pretty good guess what the actual reaction to these statements was--in the minds of his disciples.

This was during the dispensation of law and before true born from above sonship. He was preparing them for 'Grace', which would come later.

[OneLight]

17 minutes ago, Alive said:

@OneLight

Jesus came to fulfill the law or to satisfy the requirement of the law. I believe he was teaching just how difficult it is to truly live by the 'principle' of law. An impossibly high bar to reach. I can make a pretty good guess what the actual reaction to these statements was--in the minds of his disciples.

This was during the dispensation of law and before true born from above sonship. He was preparing them for 'Grace', which would come later.

So, all of the teaching Jesus taught in His parables are only to point to grace and have nothing to do with how we should live today?  Am I understanding you correctly?

[Alive]

11 minutes ago, OneLight said:

So, all of the teaching Jesus taught in His parables are only to point to grace and have nothing to do with how we should live today?  Am I understanding you correctly?

No not exactly. At this time, the disciples had no idea--zero--of the power of the New Creation and the law of the Spirit of Life. Later, they would look back to these words and over time, especially with paul's teaching understand that they could never reach that goal in their flesh, but the Life within could.

Surely, when they heard their Rabbi teaching this, they said to one another--this is impossible! And yet He is the Messiah. In short, they were confabulated at His words at that time. They knew it was impossible for them to reach that high bar.

[Don19]

18 minutes ago, Alive said:

@OneLight

Jesus came to fulfill the law or to satisfy the requirement of the law. I believe he was teaching just how difficult it is to truly live by the 'principle' of law. An impossibly high bar to reach. I can make a pretty good guess what the actual reaction to these statements was--in the minds of his disciples.

This was during the dispensation of law and before true born from above sonship. He was preparing them for 'Grace', which would come later.

I agree! I believe the unmerciful servant represents Israel after the flesh. In other parables, e.g., the Good Samaritan, the law and ceremonial religion (represented by the Levite and the priest) are shown to lack compassion. But the Good Samaritan is actually a picture of Jesus, Who comes to save those once His enemies (as the Jews and Samaritans were enemies), pouring oil and wine in the man's wounds (which clearly represents the Holy Spirit).

[Alive]

Not to be a like a tape set on repeat, but everything must bow to what I am convinced happened to me (past tense) in the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension.

This is the means by which my Creator chose to bring me into His Family making me a son. My life is now hidden with Christ in God. No power in this universe can change that. It is not a metaphorical thing. It is a true actual physical/spiritual reality. I have been relocated and translated.

Salvation is Relocation.

 

 

[Don19]

29 minutes ago, OneLight said:

So, all of the teaching Jesus taught in His parables are only to point to grace and have nothing to do with how we should live today?  Am I understanding you correctly?

The parables are to hide truth from some and reveal it to others:

Matthew 13:10-17:

¹⁰ And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

¹¹ He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

¹² For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

¹³ Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

¹⁴ And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

¹⁵ For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

¹⁶ But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

¹⁷ For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

[Alive]

10 minutes ago, Don19 said:

The parables are to hide truth from some and reveal it to others:

Matthew 13:10-17:

¹⁰ And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

¹¹ He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

¹² For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

¹³ Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

¹⁴ And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

¹⁵ For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

¹⁶ But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

¹⁷ For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Amen--and they hid those words away in their hearts until the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete) would open it up to them. And even then, it took time and some hard lessons.

:-)