OneLight Posted June 23, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 23, 2020 15 minutes ago, WilliamL said: I ask you the same question: if Paul meant the Holy Spirit, why did he not just say so? Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. ... 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. This is speaking of the civil authorities' appointment by God to restrain evil. Paul didn't have all the answers, despite what some think. Why do you think God Himself did not speak plainly about everything in scripture, but kept certain things a mystery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted June 23, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 23, 2020 18 minutes ago, OneLight said: Paul didn't have all the answers, despite what some think. Why do you think God Himself did not speak plainly about everything in scripture, but kept certain things a mystery? The Greek tense and verb structure suggest it is a 'thing' that restrains. Sure it is overseen by the Lord since He is seated enthroned and is in charge of it all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted June 23, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,119 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,555 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 22 minutes ago, OneLight said: Paul didn't have all the answers, despite what some think. Why do you think God Himself did not speak plainly about everything in scripture, but kept certain things a mystery? 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now you know the [thing] restraining... Of course Paul knew what he was referring to! The Thessalonians knew because Paul told them. Read the verse for what it says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonaldBruno Posted June 23, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 452 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 175 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/26/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 23, 2020 2 hours ago, WilliamL said: If the Holy Spirit was what Paul was alluding to, then why would he have not just said so?? Would have been no reason to be all elliptical about it. Sorry, this argument does not hold up. It is a clear case of eisegesis. Really, so many scholars teach that the Resyrainer is the Holy Spirit: John MacArthur, the late Chuck Smith, Chuck Swindall, RC Sproul. God restrains evil! Who else has restrained evil and Satan since the beginning? The Antichrist will be revealed and his power will be released when HE, God the Holy Spirit _IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted June 23, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, RonaldBruno said: Really, so many scholars teach that the Resyrainer is the Holy Spirit: John MacArthur, the late Chuck Smith, Chuck Swindall, RC Sproul. God restrains evil! Who else has restrained evil and Satan since the beginning? The Antichrist will be revealed and his power will be released when HE, God the Holy Spirit _IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. The Spirit is always everywhere, just like Yahweh. None of the above quoted 'experts' have it all correct anyway. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted June 23, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,119 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,555 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 minute ago, RonaldBruno said: Really, so many scholars teach that the Resyrainer is the Holy Spirit: John MacArthur, the late Chuck Smith, Chuck Swindall, RC Sproul. God restrains evil! Who else has restrained evil and Satan since the beginning? The Antichrist will be revealed and his power will be released when HE, God the Holy Spirit _IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. And so many teachers say otherwise. It's never about a vote. As far as restraining evil and lawlessness, that is the primary purpose for which governments have always been instituted. (As well as for other purposes, of course.) Romans 13, which I quoted above, says just this. There is no doubt at all that if America's restraining influence is removed from the world scene, lawlessness will increase dramatically above anything we have ever experienced. Worse ever by far than what happened after the fall of the Roman Empire. And this may happen sooner than you might think. And perhaps you are woefully unprepared for such an event, because you have been basing your hopes on a pre-trib rapture. Hope you're right, but I'm convinced otherwise by the scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revelation Man Posted June 23, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 4,072 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 553 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 21 hours ago, WilliamL said: If the Holy Spirit was what Paul was alluding to, then why would he have not just said so?? Would have been no reason to be all elliptical about it. Sorry, this argument does not hold up. It is a clear case of eisegesis. Because the letters/Epistles were speaking to other men, not creating Doctrine. He had already told the Thessalonians all these things one time when he was with them, thus in his letters instead of writing it out long form he just reminded them of their talk on the subject. Which is why I have a problem with people accepting these Epistles as Holy Writ. The are great for teaching etc. etc. but I don't think we can use them as THUS SAITH THE LORD. The Holy Spirit working through the Church RESTRAINS the Anti-Christ from coming forth. Jesus clearly told Peter the Gates of hell will not prevail against my Church. The whole passage is about the Church being gathered unto Christ BEFORE the DOTL can fall upon mankind, thus the Thessalonians should not be fearing that they are in the DOTL. Because, THAT DAY can not come until the Church Departs AND the Man of Sin/Anti-Christ shows up. Then you will be in the DOTL. So, the Rapture or Departure of the Church comes first, then the A.C. shows up, then the DOTL. Thus it makes perfect sense if you take into account, its the Holy Spirit working through the Church that RESTRAINS the Beast System from arising. As soon as we depart, the 70th week begins. Edited June 24, 2020 by Revelation Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonaldBruno Posted June 23, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 452 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 175 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/26/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted June 23, 2020 2 hours ago, WilliamL said: As far as restraining evil and lawlessness, that is the primary purpose for which governments have always been instituted. (As well as for other purposes, of course.) Romans 13, which I quoted above, says just this. All leaders are appointed by God and governments are as well. God does restrain evil through the governments and leaders He appoints. The primary purpose of government is to protect it's citizens and their property. So if you don't believe God restrains evil or He is the one restraining the Antichrist, then who is? 2 hours ago, WilliamL said: There is no doubt at all that if America's restraining influence is removed from the world scene, lawlessness will increase dramatically above anything we have ever experienced. Worse ever by far than what happened after the fall of the Roman Empire. And this may happen sooner than you might think. And perhaps you are woefully unprepared for such an event, because you have been basing your hopes on a pre-trib rapture. Hope you're right, but I'm convinced otherwise by the scriptures. Your assumptions are incorrect. America is not the police force of the world, nor does she restrain evil - impossible. We are a strong influence and deterrent. America has come to the aid of countries, but there is so much out there we turn our backs to as well. We can't police of the world. Look at all the revolts in the Middle East and Africa that we avoided. America is being judged now _we are part of the problem. Immorality has grown and what was once taboo is now celebrated in the streets. I really thought when Gay Marriage was legalized, God was going to hammer us. We are in the Beginning of Sorrows spoken of in Matthew 24. Btw,I do not adhere to the Pre-Trib rapture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemke Posted June 23, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,028 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 451 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/24/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Abby-Joy said: I do not believe the Holy Spirit will withdraw from the earth.... Psalm 139:4-12 4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. Hi Abby, I'm pretty sure those who believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit are speaking of at least two perspectives. One is the end of the church proper in the sense of a reversal of the day of Pentecost. The disciples already had the Sprit as in being born again, Jesus blew on them and said, "receive the Holy Spirit". The Spirit was given at Pentecost to empower the church to be witnesses and convict the world of sin. And as Jesus said "I must leave so He may come" The same will be true toward the end. A reversal, the Holy Spirit will leave so Jesus may come. NOT the indwelling, but once again God will be dealing with the world as He once had. Believers will still have oil. The other is the pre trib belief that the church restrains because of the Holy Spirit that dwells in the temple of God which is the church and when the church is taken then the Spirit that dwells within is also. Something along those lines. Jesus did say "Work while it is the day, night comes when no man can work." And Peter on the day of Pentecost preached, "The sun will turn to darkness and the moon to blood before that great and glorious day come." Jesus comes like a thief, when? In the night. Edited June 23, 2020 by Zemke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted June 23, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Justin Adams said: The Greek tense and verb structure suggest it is a 'thing' that restrains. Sure it is overseen by the Lord since He is seated enthroned and is in charge of it all. 5 hours ago, WilliamL said: 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now you know the [thing] restraining... Of course Paul knew what he was referring to! The Thessalonians knew because Paul told them. Read the verse for what it says. I guess we have conflicting versions of scripture. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. I guess we will just have to wait and see who was correct in their translations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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