Raptured

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, The Light said:

Why did you not bold this: from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Let me add this for you. The gathering is from heaven (the Church) and earth (the 12 tribes)

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

I find it to be a metaphor. First Jesus is not in heaven, He has come to the atmosphere. The four winds are analogous to the cardinal directions of earth, then we see 'from one end of the earth to the other', last we see 'from one end of heaven to the other'. The entire context here is the earth so 'heaven' here is sky or atmosphere and not God's abode. The contrast is in Revelation. There is little doubt in Revelation 'ouranos' refers to the abode of God. In Matt 24:31 ouranos does not.

20 hours ago, The Light said:

The church is gathered here, however it is not from the earth.  The Church is gathered frisom heaven. The twelve tribes that are gathered from the earth as their eyes are opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That happens at the pretrib rapture. The nation of Israel remains on earth in a place of protection.

Conclusion: Both the Church and the twelve tribes across the earth are the ELECT.

The refutation:

Rev 7

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

This is not a pretrib group because they came out of GT. This isn't the 12 tribes as they are from all nations, language and peoples. Ergo, there isn't a pretrib gathering at all, and there is no regathering from the abode of God, and the gathering of Matt 24 isn't just for the 12 tribes. 

 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

`For Jacob my servant`s sake, and for ISRAEL MY ELECT.`  (Isa. 45: 4)

Not sure what you're saying here. 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Yes that is very clear for the people of ISRAEL. That is to whom the Lord was speaking, and we also know that the Body of Christ revelation was NOT known previous to that or revealed by the Lord.

Jesus was not speaking exclusively to the people of the nation of Israel. He was, and is, speaking to the seed of Abraham, those in Christ. Matt 24 is comprehensive and it begins by addressing the audience by name as those in Christ:

Matt 24

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many FALSE prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

This specifically addresses those in Christ. In fact it removes both orthodox Jewry and the nation of Israel from the context as neither accepted Jesus, and would not suffer in the name of Jesus, nor preach the Gospel to the world, as is stated here.

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So the clear exact plan of the pre-trib.

1. Seeing the Day of the Lord, (time period) approaching.

`Brethren, you are NOT in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

`...but exhorting, (encouraging & warning) one another, and so much the more as YOU SEE the day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

I have heard pretrib advocates make prediction after prediction that failed. This has gone on for all four decades in which I have been paying attention. All the predictions are based on non biblical events and all have been wrong. These people didn't SEE anything. There is no way to see the day approaching unless it's a prophesied event which has occurred and one in which everyone who's watching knows the event just occurred. It's certainly not this: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes," as these thing have been going on since the beginning and in no way a marker of the coming of Jesus; "the end is not yet", He told us. Proof is in all the many failed predictions of pretrib based on these things and astrology, gematria, eisegesis, etc.

 

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

2. The Lord descends with those asleep in Him.  (no angels)

`For the Lord Himself shall descend...` `God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14 & 15)

3. We all rise together to meet the Lord in the air.

` The dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ` (1 Thess. 16 & 17)

 The above seems to be a good example of eisegesis. This section must be taken as a whole thought, not split into two thoughts and it also must be presented in toto.

1 Thess 4:14-16

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Here the dead in Christ rise only upon the return of Christ: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" You stumble at, "so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him". The Greek here means "God will bring first" or maybe, "God begins with them" not, "God resurrected them at some time in the past and is now descending from Heaven with them." Unless I mistake your meaning.

Point 3 above seems to confuse the issue in light of your point 2. Those who sleep in Jesus God already resurrected and descend with Jesus, but now they are raised from the dead to meet together with the living as they all meet Jesus in the clouds of the air?

 

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

 

4. We go to the Lord`s own throne.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on My throne...`  (Rev. 3: 21)

 

None of the above demands a pretrib conclusion and I do not see how point 4 is proof of that either.

 

[Revelation Man]

On 6/26/2020 at 4:37 AM, Diaste said:

Read just the highlighted parts:

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’

described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak.How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. For...

at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance. So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, 
and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, 

and they will gather His elect

from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Anywhere else in all of scripture where the Creator of all things lays out the exact plan and order as clear as this?

Does the Pretrib scenario have this kind of order, clarity and as succinct and concise?

If the elect are gathered here but it's not the church, why does the church think it's not the selected chosen of the Lord? 

Is 'one end of the heavens to the other' a metaphor for 'everywhere on the earth'?

The Church COME BACK with Jesus in verse 31............SEE Rev. 19.

On 6/26/2020 at 6:10 AM, Last Daze said:

Brings to mind this scripture:

• Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets.  Amos 3:7

This is very TRUE............You just can't grasp it brother. 

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Church COME BACK with Jesus in verse 31............SEE Rev. 19.

No. But you'll see. Best get prepared.

[Justin Adams]

The 'early' rapture view is espoused to give Believers a way out from opposing evil and doing much about it.

The seeds of extreme persecution have begun to sprout. Right now it is 'benign' and has to do with constant pressure from the gay agenda and other Christ Hating groups. Read the handwriting on the wall folks. Your freedoms are eroded already and the 'beast' is sharpening his talons for his supposed 'kill day'.

But, there are those I know of that have systems in place to thwart this. This network of threats is only as good as the frail  delivery systems. The huge players already have made known their ideas and have been so proud as to think we are all going to be led like sheep to their slaughter.
Do not sit back on your laurels awaiting that 'great sky elevator'. Rather get those folk in your assemblies that have skill and understanding to create workplaces for others that are soon to be unemployed due to demonic disclosures they have to sign in order to be employed. Use you minds and your skill to oppose in a creative way the high-street-bandits that aim to make Believers poor and unable to fund Gospel outreach or even to live without constant worry.

Get to work people and make a difference for the poor amongst you.

Remember the time Yeshua went to the mount. "And the gates of hell will not be able to withstand the church". That is a far more accurate rendition of what the Lord said. 

'All that is necessary for evil to abound is for good men to do nothing'.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

The 'early' rapture view is espoused to give Believers a way out from opposing evil and doing much about it.

 

The Rapture is  fact, we see the Church in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened, most people that don't understand the Rapture, tbh, I don't see them in Church at all, or rarely, I see them on message boards.  The IDEAS seem more important than the FACTS sadly. 

[R. Hartono]

On 6/26/2020 at 11:16 PM, Diaste said:

So only a pretrib scenario can satisfy this? That's illogical, Captain. 

If rapture takes place after the sun is darkened by the 4th trumpet there is no need to stay alert, just look at the sky is the sun already dark ? Not yet ? Continue sleeping, God wont come ???????

[R. Hartono]

14 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

The 'early' rapture view is espoused to give Believers a way out from opposing evil and doing much about it.

 

How did you oppose evil in this world.

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture is  fact, we see the Church in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened, most people that don't understand the Rapture, tbh, I don't see them in Church at all, or rarely, I see them on message boards.  The IDEAS seem more important than the FACTS sadly. 

Maybe we are just sick of hearing false teaching.