Postmillennialism: Christendom's Bright Cheerful View Of The Future Of The Human Race.

[Alive]

5 minutes ago, Josheb said:

If I said I'm going to come pick you up tomorrow and take you out to dinner on my dime and then never showed up what would you think?

If I said I'm going to come pick you up tomorrow and take you out to dinner on my dime and then never showed up six consecutive time in a row what would you think?

If you watched me say to Jag I was going to pick him up tomorrow and take him out to dinner on my dime and then never showed up six times in a row what would you think?

I have read this rational in posts now several time...I get it, but I am quite sure it is nearly insignificant. Folks..even seekers can understand that these things aren’t clear to us until they are. A two minute conversation can clear that up.

preach the Cross and give reason for the hope that is in us. That hope of ultimate peace and joy with our Maker because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ...our God.

Even a simple uneducated soul understand judgement and Mercy and Love. The Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh to convict and open eyes to Christ.

[DeighAnn]

On 7/6/2020 at 6:05 AM, Josheb said:

Are you a premillennialist or Dispensationalist, Marilyn? You you actively espouse premillennialism and/or Dispensational eschatology? If so I'd like to ask you a question based on your post. I recently asked this question and no one was able (or willing?) to answer it. 

What will you do or say when after the not-long-time-to-find-out comes and goes and the rapture, or the tribulation or the second return has not happened? 

Exactly what we are told to do and say. 

TEACH GODS TRuTH so that those who WILL BE here for the tribulation KNOW exactly WHAT will help them to not be deceived, withstand the fiery darts of Satan, stand, overcome and endure to the end, knowing that Christ will not return as a thief in the night for them because they will have kept working in the field, not allowing themselves to be taken to receive the mark of the beast and will know when the 2 witnesses are killed they only need wait 3 1/2 more days to the return of Christ.  

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, Roar said:

Brothers and sisters, I exhort you here in conclusion: Be a Berean (Acts 17:11)! Examine the Scriptures daily and test everything you hear by the Word of God (Isaiah 8:20; 1 Thess. 5:21). There are a lot of strange teachings out there on Christian radio stations, Christian cable channels, and in Christian bookstores. It is incredibly important that you know the Bible! So, be a student of the Scriptures. Read the Bible daily! (And not just so you can avoid false doctrine but so that you can really get to know your Creator!) He is so worth knowing! So worthy!

Hands clapping!!!  I wish to THANK YOU for that post.  NICE.   (a few things I don't see the same, BUT that was a REALLY good read)

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

What's the topic of discussion? What's your purpose in posting to me?

Shalom, Josheb.

To give you shalom - peace - found ONLY in the Messiah Yeshua` (the Christ Jesus), Sar Shalom, the Prince of Peace!

Human beings are FALLIBLE! Human beings are inherently EVIL! Human beings are doomed to failure! .... ON THEIR OWN, that is!

As in the philosophy of Evolution, which means an "out-turning," evolution is said to be coming to better and better species! HOWEVER, this philosophy (for it is NOT true science) neglects the reality of physics! The reality of physics is that, given the efficiency ratings of work in every machine, we are actually LOSING GROUND to entropy and decay! Entropy, which means an "inward-transformation," means randomness and disorder are on the increase in all systems. All energy decays into useless, heat energy and involves a gradual decline into disorder.

Ah! But that's when the TRUE optimism steps in! What is impossible with men, is POSSIBLE with God!

The Messiah Yeshua`, the Son of God, stepped into the equation and provided LIFE ETERNAL where there was only death and decay! He provides RESURRECTION! He has made it possible for us to be JUSTIFIED by God (often erroneously called "salvation") and provided restitution and redemption and reconciliation with God!

THAT'S where the optimism of premillennialism is to be found, and that's what I want for YOU, my brother!

[Alive]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Perhaps that is true but I do not know that you "get it." Would you mind answering the questions so I have some evidence that the concerns to which I allude are understood?

 

If I said I'm going to come pick you up tomorrow and take you out to dinner on my dime and then never showed up what would you think?

 

If I said I'm going to come pick you up tomorrow and take you out to dinner on my dime and then never showed up six consecutive time in a row what would you think?

 

If you watched me say to Jag I was going to pick him up tomorrow and take him out to dinner on my dime and then never showed up six times in a row what would you think?

 

thx

My post was my answer---the answer to your 'example' questions is obvious, so no I don't need to answer what is obvious.

There are many good brothers and sisters that have been trying to understand prophecy and current events for a long time and it will continue. Many of these views are conflicting. That is just the way it is.

Couldn't we apply the rational behind these three questions to your own world view?

Really--I find this tedious.

But carry on, please.

[Alive]

Where do you stand on the nation of Israel and the Jews of today. Does and will Israel play a part in future events related to prophecy?

[Omegaman 3.0]

16 hours ago, Roar said:

SECOND COMING AND PRETERISM

I wonder if that is the longest post ever on Worthy!

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 minute ago, Roar said:

Does truth have limits placed upon it? Did you know all the information contained in it and did you read it? 

No, of course not, did I say that? No, I did not know all of that. In fact, I copy/pasted it into Word, for future reference. No, I did not read it, but I skimmed it more than casually.

From experience though, I would say that the use of giant fonts, excessive highlighting, but mostly exhaustive text, will turn off 95% or more of those who might have been interested. We, the church included, are in a fast food society, instant gratification, and drive by reading a posting on the forums. 

My posts tend to be long winded, but this is another level, lol. If I were to offer a suggestion, it would be to consider bullet pointing the main points you are about to deal with right at the beginning, while you still have thier attention. Then direct there attention to the sections of the post that deal with the points.

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

And what, beyond reconsidering their thinking,  do you understand God's truth to teach a person to do when s/he teaches incorrectly? 

Repent and pray for understanding. 



I was going to leave it at that but would like to know what Scripture you are speaking of.  What do you understand is taught about one who finds they have been teaching incorrectly? 

 We do have examples of incorrect understandings being corrected as with Paul on the road.  And then there was Peter

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

Acts 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Acts 10:27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Acts 10:29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?

Acts 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,

Acts 10:31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

Acts 10:32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.

Acts 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

BUT THEY MOVED FORWARD PROCLAIMING TRUTH.  

[dhchristian]

33 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Yes, your post is your answer. It is also one of the problems to be solved. I have asked this kind of question to many here and done si in more than one. I asked it in different wording here in this op, and in all the ops I've asked it only one poster has ever given a direct answer. She was commended for doing so. The question is not asked to scapegoat anyone.

This failure to respond is evidence. The evidence is this: Premillennialists avoid answering the question about the very real and substantive discrepancy between teaching and practice. 

 

Now, as to why this is important:

Christians who do not live with integrity have a problem scripturally. This is not my opinion, it is scripture who tells us not to say one thing and do another. Responses like, "Well, everyone is imperfect," is a tu quoque fallacy. Whether or not Joe Christian or Sally Christian is perfect is immaterial to the fact Premillennialists constantly make false prognostications. It is not an occasional occurrence; it happen repeatedly. Not only does it happen repeatedly but know one ever holds these false teachers accountable for 1) the false teaching or 2) its effects. This to is an undeniable failure to practice as one preaches. There are other failures of integrity, such as investing resources in conditions from which the believer won't be around to benefit if they are raptured away tomorrow, but the point is made: there is a huge discrepancy between what is preached and how that is lived out and no other eschatology has that problem. A theology that isn't actually livable is questionable at best. A theology that generates dissociated living is questionable at best. A theology that constantly generates false teachers is questionable at best. A theology that fosters a lack of accountability is questionable at best. At best it is questionable but any ordinary objective measure would reject such a theology out of hand and look for a better, more scriptural, more rational, more livable alternative.

As to the minimal effect of this problem: 

Bertrand Russell wrote a now infamous book titled, "Why I Am Not a Christian," in in his book one of the reasons he gave for not being a Christian was the premise what Jesus and the NT writers said about his return was false. Jesus either lied or was mistaken and therefore neither God, the Son of God, or inspired by God. Russell did not get that position from mainstream Christianity because that isn't what mainstream Christianity teaches. It is what Darby and the other restorationists in the 19th century taught. It was also what liberal theologians like Schweitzer taught. Darby influenced Russell and Russel has influenced generations of people to deny the gospel. This is a very real and very substantive effect of Dispensational Premillennialism. 

Furthermore, generations of people have been watching Premillennialists repeatedly claim the rapture and/or the tribulation is soon-occurring but there is a 100% fail rate in these predictions over the last 180-190 years Dispensationalists have been making these claims. In other words, when Jesus, the gospel, and Christians are measure by outsiders based on what to them is a constant unrelenting history of falsehood this amounts to a bad witness by Christians. To them Christians are all either ignorant, stupid, liars, or delusional. They didn't get there on their own - Premillnnialist rapturists and tribulationsist gave them the fodder for that misguided conclusion! And this effect is very real and near constant. This very real and very substantive effect of Premillennialism does not occur in other eschatologies. 

Look up Keith Bauer, Tom Evans,  and Robert Fitzpatrick. These men practiced what they believed. The did so foolishly, but thet practiced what they preached. 

Near-Rapturists and and near-tribulationists either need to either do a better job of handling their eschatology or they need to change the eschatology. 

 

Matthew 24:9 states quite plainly the disciples would be handed over to tribulation. This , and other passages like it, precludes the possibility of a pre-trib rapture. 

I Will let the Word of God answer your concerns....

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:1-9)

As You can clearly see it is the mercy of God that has delayed His second coming nothing else. In Fact you quoting Bertrand Russel is exemplifying a fulfillment of this very prophecy of last days with your scoffing attitude as well as Russel's. This is the very same concept we see in the book of revelation in the Trumpets and plagues, they are not there to punish but to lead to repentance before that day of fire and wrath. But there comes a time when mankind no longer repents, and we are quickly reaching that day. in the churches themselves repentance is being taught as a legalistic work in many easy-believism denominations.... There is an aversion to repentance and we see that here in your debating as well, even when faced with facts that counter your arguments you refuse to answer those criticisms and just move on with your intellectual puffing up. You and those like you are fulfilling the prophecies the premillenialists have believed with your attempts to dissuade and scoff our viewpoint. Many of us see you for who you are some do not You avoid those who see you for who you are and go after those who do not thinking you can make them twice a proselyte of hell like you yourself are.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. (john 10:25-30)