The Imminency Of Christ's Sign Return For The Rapture Of The Church

[Montana Marv]

10 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

How rude and judgemental. Nothing  to say  so you attack. 

Not as attack.  If an angel is needed to proclaim the Gospel, we are not here OR believers are not doing their job in the Great Commission, too scared.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[RonaldBruno]

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Not as attack.  If an angel is needed to proclaim the Gospel, we are not here OR believers are not doing their job in the Great Commission, too scared.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Why don't read the scripture: "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;" Rev. 14:6

You judged me, said I am unworthy to be on the kingdom because apparently you think I and all of unworthy Christians are not spreading the gospel and therefore God will need to send this angel to do it!

 What do you think that scripture means?

Think about it. And take this with you as well: None of us are worthy! None of us received acceptance into heaven by merit. This is what Grace means, unmerited favor. We are all sinners, so please, get off your worthy pedestal and eat some humble pie!

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, RonaldBruno said:

Why don't read the scripture: "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;" Rev. 14:6

You judged me, said I am unworthy to be on the kingdom because apparently you think I and all of unworthy Christians are not spreading the gospel and therefore God will need to send this angel to do it!

 What do you think that scripture means?

Think about it. And take this with you as well: None of us are worthy! None of us received acceptance into heaven by merit. This is what Grace means, unmerited favor. We are all sinners, so please, get off your worthy pedestal and eat some humble pie!

The Scripture means the Bride is gone. We do the work of spreading the Gospel. When we are gone an angel is doing the work. No need to have two doing the work of one.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[RonaldBruno]

6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The Scripture means the Bride is gone. We do the work of spreading the Gospel. When we are gone an angel is doing the work. No need to have two doing the work of one.

In Christ

Montana Marv

According to your view, we are gone. Not interested in arguing views, but in the spiritual realm, how do you think guardian angels communicate with us? We know the Holy Spirit dwells in us, He communicates to us, but about angels? Could they communicate with humans  (aside from a personal and physical appearance), to their minds? Yes, Joseph received a message and others as well. So this angel could just be transmitting a message to people that might have their doors open? 

Don't be so sure we are gone by this time. 

"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.

I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand." Rev. 14:12-14.

Looks like Jesus just arrived in a cloud. Then every eye sees Him and the Jews believe and are sealed.

"Every nation, tribe tongue and people ..." Sounds to me like we are still here.

"Patient endurance from the people of God who remain faithful to Jesus", sounds like us. (though it could be the new Jewish converts left behind?) But if it was a reference to the remnant Jews who just became Christians, asking for patience of someone who has just become a Christian ... endurance and would scripture identify these as a group who is faithful, been put to the test throughout their lives? Faith grows, starts out small and is demonstrated by fruit.

And so, this period is an interim between the 7th trumpet and the 7 bowls of God's wrath being released in the next chapters. God is showing us different vantage points all through Revelation that include events that repeat and overlap. If many things were occurring in one hour, He shows us them individually. We can't see them all at once and so "Here is what this looks like at this angle ...". Revelation is like looking at a 4- dimensional, transparent sphere, with events inside and outside. As you turn the sphere, you get to look at different vantage points. The orders are in the scroll with 7 seals, but the action doesn't start until the  trumpets start to blow. 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by RonaldBruno
spelling

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

According to your view, we are gone. Not interested in arguing views, but in the spiritual realm, how do you think guardian angels communicate with us? We know the Holy Spirit dwells in us, He communicates to us, but about angels? Could they communicate with humans  (aside from a personal and physical appearance), to their minds? Yes, Joseph received a message and others as well. So this angel could just be transmitting a message to people that might have their doors open? 

We have the Holy Spirit indwelling us. Joseph did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling him.  We have no need for an angel to give us information.  Joseph did need a messenger angel to communicate with him.  Marv

Don't be so sure we are gone by this time. 

Read Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands. they did not stop worshiping demons and idols........  Marv

"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.

So those who have died in Christ for the past 2000 years are not blessed.  Marv  This is a special blessing.

I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand." Rev. 14:12-14.

Looks like Jesus just arrived in a cloud. Then wvwru eye sees Him and the Jews believe and are sealed.

"Every nation, tribe tongue and people ..." Sounds to me like we are still here.

No, these are those pagans who come out of the 70th Week from every nation, tribe and people.  Demon and idol worshipers according to Rev 9:20..   This is why Christ must rule them with a rod of iron.  These are not believers.  These are individuals who need a transformed mind..  Retrained...  Marv

"Patient endurance from the people of God who remain faithful to Jesus", sounds like us. (though it could be the new Jewish converts left behind?) But if it was a reference to the remnant Jews who just became Christians, asking for patience of someone who has just become a Christian ... endurance and would scripture identify these as a group who is faithful, been put to the test throughout their lives? Faith grows, starts out small and is demonstrated by fruit.

You seem to be jumping all over the place, these are 70th Week saints at it's onset in Rev 13.  Many of which will later be influenced by the angel flying in mid air to proclaim the Gospel.  Marv

And so, this period is an interim between the 7th trumpet and the 7 bowls of God's wrath being released in the next chapters. God is showing us different vantage points all through Revelation that include events that repeat and overlap.

There are no repeated events.  There are the Seals One to Seven,  Then within the 7th Seal are the 7 Trumpet judgments; and within the 7th Trumpet are the 7 Bowls judgments.  Marv

If many things were occurring in one hour, He shows us them individually. We can't see them all at once and so "Here is what this looks like at this angle ...". Revelation is like looking at a 4- dimensional, transparent sphere, with events inside and outside. As you turn the sphere, you get to look at different vantage points. The orders are in the scroll with 7 seals, but the action doesn't start until the  trumpets start to blow. 

The actions start right after Christ opens the 1st Seal.  The Trumpets do not begin until the 7th Seal is opened.  The Bowls do no come into play until the 7th Trumpet is sounded.  All can easily fit into the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th Week.   There may be some overlapping of some judgments, but all are in their correct order.. Marv

 

 

My comments in red above

In Christ

Montana Marv

[RonaldBruno]

13 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

My comments in red above

In Christ

Montana Marv

I am very familiar with the 70th week of Daniel theology - I am not an adherent to this gap theory. Christ was cut off in the middle of that week. Gabriel gave a specific time frame that pointed to Jesus First Coming and that was it. John saw a vision of Jesus in his past arriving in heaven _ in His glory_ with praise and worship saying He is worthy to open the scroll - and He opened it. How would we know what was in it if He had not opened it? If course all this is happening in heaven, outside of our time domain. But He was handed the scroll after His ascension. Did He wait thousands of our years ... or up there its like two days?

 But you are entitled to hold tightly to your view ... until you start experiencing the Great Tribulation and you are still here -Oops.

Sincerely, I am pushing for the Pre-Trib view to be correct and mine wrong. I don't want to be around when all these catastrophic events occur- thank you very much. I just don't agree with it. At least I expect to go through some of it before I'm taken out and won't be disappointed and falling away from my faith when I'm still here.

[not an echo]

On 9/12/2020 at 6:16 AM, JohnR7 said:

On 7/4/2020 at 9:59 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning the teaching that Christ's return for the Church is imminent, I have long believed that He can come at any time and have often expressed this with words such as, "even before I finish this sentence!" 

The rapture is progressive. When people die they go to be with Him. Unless the Father brings us back to life here.  Looking back on our life is a lot different then trying to figure out the future. 

Hello JohnR7 (and all),

Not for sure where all you are coming from here, but I certainly agree with you that we go to be with the Lord when we die.  I like to call it crossing over! 

Concerning the rapture, our being gathered by the angels, or our being "caught up,"  Paul speaks to this in I Thessalonians 4:13-18 as happening to those of us who "are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" (vs. 15).  This is reinforced by his teaching that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" (I Cor. 15:51).  As I understand Scripture, this is going to take place when He makes His Sign Appearance (Matt. 24:30-31) and many prophetic points of convergence indicate that this will be at the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17).  According to my understanding, the opening of the 6th Seal is imminent---The Lamb may open it before I push Submit Repl...

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

I am very familiar with the 70th week of Daniel theology - I am not an adherent to this gap theory. Christ was cut off in the middle of that week. Gabriel gave a specific time frame that pointed to Jesus First Coming and that was it. John saw a vision of Jesus in his past arriving in heaven _ in His glory_ with praise and worship saying He is worthy to open the scroll - and He opened it. How would we know what was in it if He had not opened it? If course all this is happening in heaven, outside of our time domain. But He was handed the scroll after His ascension. Did He wait thousands of our years ... or up there its like two days?

 But you are entitled to hold tightly to your view ... until you start experiencing the Great Tribulation and you are still here -Oops.

Sincerely, I am pushing for the Pre-Trib view to be correct and mine wrong. I don't want to be around when all these catastrophic events occur- thank you very much. I just don't agree with it. At least I expect to go through some of it before I'm taken out and won't be disappointed and falling away from my faith when I'm still here.

A lot we defer on. Seventy Sevens are decreed. All full 7 year periods. Christ being cut off at the end of the 69th Week. One full Week ahead. A One Seven plus zero is a One Seven. Doesn't total seven, but is a One Seven. 3 1/2 plus 3 1/2 totals seven, but is not a One Seven. Only if the two 3 1/2 periods are in brackets thus being one can it be considered a One Seven.

So the full 70th Week is still ahead of us. Gives a lot different perspective.

3 1/2 years of semi peace under a one world leader. Then 3 1/2 years under control of Satan and pure chaos, when all the S,T,B are poured out.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[not an echo]

On 9/12/2020 at 6:25 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/12/2020 at 12:01 AM, not an echo said:

I again can see where you are coming from, but I would like for you to consider further...

Concerning the latter part of your first paragraph, in a loose general sense, it can be argued that what Jesus warned of in verses 4-11 had taken place in the prior millennia, but the thing of experiencing persecution and martyrdom for His name's sake had not (vs. 9).  This was to be a new thing, Christianity-specific, Church era-specific. 

A roadblock to understanding is dispensationalism. It's not real. We become Israel or we have no inheritance.

Hello Diaste,

The following better conveys how I would express things concerning our salvation:  We become born-again, saved, children of God, Christians, a part of Christ's Church, a new creature, spiritual children of Abraham, etc., "or we have no inheritance."  The same is so for those who are Israel, in accord with what Paul said, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Rom. 9:6).  When an Israelite gets saved, for that individual, any distinction stops there.  But otherwise, there are some differences.  In connection with God's covenant promise to Abraham, God used the Israelite Nation (in connection with the Old Testament) and now is using the Christian Church (in connection with the New Testament) to effect this end.  And, when God gets ready to wrap everything up, He's got some things slated for those who were a part of the former and the latter.  It has become a curious thing for me that you seem to have a disdain for any understanding that would indicate a distinction between the Nation of Israel and the Christian Church.  Mine is a very basic understanding.  Dispensationalism is more involved.  I have tried before to convey to you (and others) that I am not a dispensationalist and I certainly don't have any kind of dispensationalist aggenda.  Personally, I'm kinda feeling that what may have happened here is that too much has been made of this by those who hold to it, and too big of a thing is being made out of this by those who reject it.  And Diaste, I'm really not meaning to be negative on something that may be of real importance to you.  I'm just trying to understand all the undercurrents a little better.  As far as what the distinctions I speak of really mean to me, the following may help to illustrate:

This past weekend I took my son to a drag racing event for General Motors enthusiasts.  It was his birthday.  The event was called LS Fest and it catered to those who have LS engines in their cars and trucks.  LS engines are made by GM and are highly popular for high performance applications.  Anyone that had never been to such an event might have easily gotten the impression that we and the venue owner had something against any other kind of engine, or even that this was the only kind of event that ever takes place this venue!  At an LS Fest, there may even be some smack talk between those who are there who swear by the LS engine and those who may be there who swear by other engines, like the Ford Coyote engine.  It is conceivable that someone could even get offended if such talk went to far.  Some are real sticklers to some things and that is all fine and good as long as a fight don't break out, or guns aren't drawn!  Generally, however, these types of events are enjoyable for all and are known to draw spectators/enthusiasts of all ages, shapes, and sizes.  Moreover, most enthusiasts have lots of other interests as well.  But, the event this weekend---for the most part---was for LS enthusiasts.

Now, my son and I have been to lots of these kinds of events over the years, and we know that the LS Fest that happened this last weekend happens only once annually at the venue where we were.  Personally, my interest is more broad---I like about any kind of specialized vehicle, as long as its radical or fast!  Others with a similar mentality are often seen at the other events that happen at this venue, because the venue itself is built around a common interest of many human beings---specialized vehicles.

While my son and I were at the above event, it started raining.  It rained and rained.  We found a good shelter and I passed some time on my smart phone reading posts on the Worthy Forum.  Isn't today's technology something!  As I explored the forum for a good while, it became a curious thing for me---once again---all the talk I discovered that revolved around the Church and Israel, Christians and Israelites, and the points of contention related thereto.  I've just got to say that for me, I'm just another human being (spectator/enthusiast) that is interested in things like the Church and Israel (specialized vehicles), and I'm walking about this earth (the venue), checking in on what God (the venue Owner), has going related to the Church (a GM event) and Israel (a Ford event).  In the Bible, we learn that God (the venue Owner) has some events slated, some exclusively Church (GM) related, some exclusively Israel (Ford) related, and some inclusive of all.  Hey, I really like the latter!

When talking about an event, just because I, as a fellow human (spectator/enthusiast) may happen to say something that focuses more on the Church (GM products), this does not mean that I am anti-Israel (Ford products).  And, just because I happen to say something positive about Israel (Ford products), this doesn't mean that I see the Church (GM products) as something lessor.  Really, I see both the Church (GM's) and Israel (Fords) as being Divine in origin (specialized vehicles) with future events that are exclusive to each (like a GM event or a Ford event).

In the Bible, we find talk of the Christian Church (GM) and of the Israelite Nation (Ford) and there are also others.  We find that there are some events that pertain more exclusively to the Church (like a GM event) and some that pertain more exclusively to the Nation (like a Ford event), all because that's the way God (the venue Owner) set it all up.  Me, I'm just not a stickler to some of the details that others seem to get caught up in.  I just want to be able to take in the event(s) as much as possible, get home safely, which my son and I did this past weekend.  And, good memories are a plus, of course.

Let me reinforce again:  I most certainly see any saved Jew as being a born-again Christian and a part of the Church, ever bit as much as myself or any saved Gentile (no distinctions, once saved), and I see all saved as being children of Abraham as well.  All of us that are saved are beneficiaries of God's covenant promise with Abraham.  Interestingly, at the LS event this past weekend, we saw several other makes and models of specialized vehicles that had been outfitted with the LS engine.  These highly modified vehicles were accepted in the event every bit as much as those originally so fitted.  And equally interesting, I have been to national events where that every make and model of specialized vehicle equally belonged.  Connected with this latter observation, this is on the order of how I see it for all of us who are saved, when we get to Heaven.  In God's eyes, we are certainly all special.

Sadly, in both this present world and that one to come, many will never get to take in an exciting and worthwhile event---but to the contrary.

I know, I know.  And, if one desired to pick the foregoing apart, there ain't no telling what all could be made of it to obscure what I am trying to get across.  In my thinking, it's just a real world example---of which there are zillions---kinda like a parable---that I thought might help us to better see something that Satan don't want us to see.  And, it's a little more lengthy (really, a lot more) than I aimed for it to be, but I kinda enjoyed writing it. 

Got to go for now, but I'll be back "good Lord willing and the creeks don't rise" as we say in Kentucky...   

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[JohnR7]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

This is reinforced by his teaching that "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" (I Cor. 15:51). 

This is talking about the resurrection when our Body is raised up. That is different from the rapture when our body returns to the dust it came from.