Bulldozing churches... this is where its heading

[Guest theElect777]

1 minute ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Do we have a record in the NT of every Baptism and if it was done by dunking or is that read into the text?

No, but we also do not show anyone being sprinkled in the new established Church either.   Since Christ was emerged, logic states the Apostles had their example in Christ.

[ayin jade]

3 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Other churches sharing the same name and denomination are known for having bad reputations in their areas.

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/uncivil-war-6413630

expect problems from their school too come spring, https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ro&sp=nmt4&u=https://solascripturaseminary.org/faculty&usg=ALkJrhh8weX6O3CcpuPom3wruQ2IRaMCcA

"Romanian Pentecostal Union (RPU) is a non-profit organization (similar to the Romanian Pentecostal Cult), which includes Romanian Pentecostal ministers and churches not affiliated with other American organizations, in order to share and maintain the principles of Pentecostal faith."  https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ro&sp=nmt4&u=http://romanianpentecostalunion.com/&usg=ALkJrhgjuyhc7GTGtlgvUNKMTiYSO5fhWw

Phoenix new times is a garbage publication. I live in the phoenix area. It is a freebee liberal rag well known for taking extreme unfounded stands. I would be hesitant to consider it a valid news source, even by todays lame media standards.

However I agree that this church is a cult. 

[Daniel Marsh]

Lets look at the historical, cultural context.

Acts 8:12-40 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
12 But Philip told the people the Good News about God’s kingdom and the power of Jesus Christ. Men and women believed Philip and were baptized. 13 Simon himself also believed, and after he was baptized, he stayed close to Philip. When he saw the miraculous signs and powerful things Philip did, he was amazed.

14 The apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted the word of God. So they sent Peter and John to the people in Samaria. 15 When Peter and John arrived, they prayed for the Samaritan believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 These people had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, but the Holy Spirit had not yet come down on any of them. This is why Peter and John prayed. 17 When the two apostles laid their hands on the people, they received the Holy Spirit.

18 Simon saw that the Spirit was given to people when the apostles laid their hands on them. So he offered the apostles money. 19 He said, “Give me this power so that when I lay my hands on someone, they will receive the Holy Spirit.”

20 Peter said to Simon, “You and your money should both be destroyed because you thought you could buy God’s gift with money. 21 You cannot share with us in this work. Your heart is not right before God. 22 Change your heart! Turn away from these evil thoughts and pray to the Lord. Maybe he will forgive you. 23 I see that you are full of bitter jealousy and cannot stop yourself from doing wrong.”

24 Simon answered, “Both of you pray to the Lord for me, so that what you have said will not happen to me.”

25 Then the two apostles told the people what they had seen Jesus do. They told them the message of the Lord. Then they went back to Jerusalem. On the way, they went through many Samaritan towns and told people the Good News.

Philip Teaches a Man From Ethiopia
26 An angel of the Lord spoke to Philip. The angel said, “Get ready and go south on the road that leads down to Gaza from Jerusalem—the road that goes through the desert.”

27 So Philip got ready and went. On the road he saw a man from Ethiopia. He was a eunuch and an important official in the service of Candace, the queen of the Ethiopians. He was responsible for taking care of all her money. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship. 28 Now he was on his way home. He was sitting in his chariot reading from the book of Isaiah the prophet.

29 The Spirit said to Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.” 30 So he went toward the chariot, and he heard the man reading from Isaiah the prophet. Philip asked him, “Do you understand what you are reading?”

31 The man answered, “How can I understand? I need someone to explain it to me.” Then he invited Philip to climb in and sit with him. 32 The part of the Scriptures that he was reading was this:

“He was like a sheep being led to the butcher.
    He was like a lamb that makes no sound as its wool is being cut off.
    He said nothing.
33 He was shamed, and all his rights were taken away.
    His life on earth has ended.
    So there will be no story about his descendants.”

34 The official[a] said to Philip, “Please, tell me, who is the prophet talking about? Is he talking about himself or about someone else?” 35 Philip began to speak. He started with this same Scripture and told the man the Good News about Jesus.

36 While they were traveling down the road, they came to some water. The official said, “Look, here is water! What is stopping me from being baptized?” 37  38 Then the official ordered the chariot to stop. Both Philip and the official went down into the water, and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord took Philip away; the official never saw him again. The official continued on his way home. He was very happy. 40 But Philip appeared in a city called Azotus. He was going to the city of Caesarea. He told people the Good News in all the towns on the way from Azotus to Caesarea.

Around verse 12, one needs to read dunking into the text there.    The other context is desert, so, there would not be running water like in a river.   The text says they came up out of the water.   I do not recall baptisms being the pastor being dunked too.

So, it would make more sense to say they walked uphill away from the water.

As shown before God says, 

Ezekiel 36:25 ESV  

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.

The OT is helpful in giving us cultural background.    As you can see, we both must guard against reading our cultural bias into a text. 

as I recall a desert is mostly sand and heat.   Water is rare there. 

[Guest theElect777]

6 minutes ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Lets look at the historical, cultural context.

Acts 8:12-40 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
12 But Philip told the people the Good News about God’s kingdom and the power of Jesus Christ. Men and women believed Philip and were baptized. 13 Simon himself also believed, and after he was baptized, he stayed close to Philip. When he saw the miraculous signs and powerful things Philip did, he was amazed.

14 The apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted the word of God. So they sent Peter and John to the people in Samaria. 15 When Peter and John arrived, they prayed for the Samaritan believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 These people had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, but the Holy Spirit had not yet come down on any of them. This is why Peter and John prayed. 17 When the two apostles laid their hands on the people, they received the Holy Spirit.

18 Simon saw that the Spirit was given to people when the apostles laid their hands on them. So he offered the apostles money. 19 He said, “Give me this power so that when I lay my hands on someone, they will receive the Holy Spirit.”

20 Peter said to Simon, “You and your money should both be destroyed because you thought you could buy God’s gift with money. 21 You cannot share with us in this work. Your heart is not right before God. 22 Change your heart! Turn away from these evil thoughts and pray to the Lord. Maybe he will forgive you. 23 I see that you are full of bitter jealousy and cannot stop yourself from doing wrong.”

24 Simon answered, “Both of you pray to the Lord for me, so that what you have said will not happen to me.”

25 Then the two apostles told the people what they had seen Jesus do. They told them the message of the Lord. Then they went back to Jerusalem. On the way, they went through many Samaritan towns and told people the Good News.

Philip Teaches a Man From Ethiopia
26 An angel of the Lord spoke to Philip. The angel said, “Get ready and go south on the road that leads down to Gaza from Jerusalem—the road that goes through the desert.”

27 So Philip got ready and went. On the road he saw a man from Ethiopia. He was a eunuch and an important official in the service of Candace, the queen of the Ethiopians. He was responsible for taking care of all her money. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship. 28 Now he was on his way home. He was sitting in his chariot reading from the book of Isaiah the prophet.

29 The Spirit said to Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.” 30 So he went toward the chariot, and he heard the man reading from Isaiah the prophet. Philip asked him, “Do you understand what you are reading?”

31 The man answered, “How can I understand? I need someone to explain it to me.” Then he invited Philip to climb in and sit with him. 32 The part of the Scriptures that he was reading was this:

“He was like a sheep being led to the butcher.
    He was like a lamb that makes no sound as its wool is being cut off.
    He said nothing.
33 He was shamed, and all his rights were taken away.
    His life on earth has ended.
    So there will be no story about his descendants.”

34 The official[a] said to Philip, “Please, tell me, who is the prophet talking about? Is he talking about himself or about someone else?” 35 Philip began to speak. He started with this same Scripture and told the man the Good News about Jesus.

36 While they were traveling down the road, they came to some water. The official said, “Look, here is water! What is stopping me from being baptized?” 37  38 Then the official ordered the chariot to stop. Both Philip and the official went down into the water, and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord took Philip away; the official never saw him again. The official continued on his way home. He was very happy. 40 But Philip appeared in a city called Azotus. He was going to the city of Caesarea. He told people the Good News in all the towns on the way from Azotus to Caesarea.

Around verse 12, one needs to read dunking into the text there.    The other context is desert, so, there would not be running water like in a river.   The text says they came up out of the water.   I do not recall baptisms being the pastor being dunked too.

So, it would make more sense to say they walked uphill away from the water.

As shown before God says, 

Ezekiel 36:25 ESV  

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.

The OT is helpful in giving us cultural background.    As you can see, we both must guard against reading our cultural bias into a text. 

as I recall a desert is mostly sand and heat.   Water is rare there. 

 

 

So you don't believe the Apostles, the ones who were personal Disciples of Christ and saw Him baptized being fully emerged would not follow the same?

[Daniel Marsh]

With reference to Ezek. xxxvi. 25, "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean," R. Akiba, in the second century, made the utterance: "Blessed art thou, O Israel! Before whom dost thou cleanse thyself? and who cleanses thee? Thy Father in heaven!" (Yoma viii. 9). Accordingly, Baptism is not merely for the purpose of expiating a special transgression, as is the case chiefly in the violation of the so-called Levitical laws of purity; but it is to form a part of holy living and to prepare for the attainment of a closer communion with God. This thought is expressed in the well-known passage in Josephus in which he speaks of John the Baptist ("Ant." xviii. 5, § 2): "The washing would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away of some sins, but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness." John symbolized the call to repentance by Baptism in the Jordan (Matt. iii. 6 and parallel passages); and the same measure for attaining to holiness was employed by the Essenes, whose ways of life John also observed in all other respects. Josephus says of his instructor Banus, an Essene, that he "bathed himself in cold water frequently, both by night and by day" ("Vita," § 2), and that the same practise was observed by all the Essenes ("B. J." ii. 8, § 5).http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2456-baptism

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Good night friend, my boss, I mean wife is home, got to go.

[Guest theElect777]

1 minute ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Good night friend, my boss, I mean wife is home, got to go.

OK Brother, we can pick this up again.  I've gained from you and appreciate your efforts!

[Daniel Marsh]

17 hours ago, theElect777 said:

 

 

So you don't believe the Apostles, the ones who were personal Disciples of Christ and saw Him baptized being fully emerged would not follow the same?

based on culture and how much water is available, They would be sprinkled if need be.   Do you know of any art of John the Baptist in the caves under Rome?

[Guest theElect777]

1 hour ago, Daniel Marsh said:

based on culture and how much water is available, They would be sprinkled if need be.   Do you know of any art of John the Baptist in the caves under Rome?

 

 

 

Not off hand.   I do wonder, even though the Bible does not make it clear.   Could the Apostles have done what Churches do today.   Someone accepts Christ and then is later baptized.   Just because we read people being baptized doesn't mean they were immediately.   They could have easily waited till they found water.

[Daniel Marsh]

1 hour ago, theElect777 said:

 

 

 

Not off hand.   I do wonder, even though the Bible does not make it clear.   Could the Apostles have done what Churches do today.   Someone accepts Christ and then is later baptized.   Just because we read people being baptized doesn't mean they were immediately.   They could have easily waited till they found water.

Even today's waiting period for baptism is based on tradition. 

In that church manual known as the Didache there was a period of fasting first.   The differences in tradition is really based on culture.    NT Jewish Churches women wore covers of some short.   In USA churches today, they do not.   In the time of Jesus they washed feet,  we do not today.     Pastoral training back then I am guessing was on the Job training.    Today, it starts with college.    I hear that strict Jewish People do not drive cars on the Sabbath because of fire inside the engine.   Whereas, we Christians do not think twice about driving to church when we are allowed to do it again.    When dealing with scripture, we need to discern what is cultural in nature and what is must do.