Receiving The Holy Spirit

[Deadworm]

8 hours ago, David1701 said:

This is a straw man, since I said nothing about tongues or prophesying."

Not a straw man at all!  I repeat: in 3 of the 4  cases in Acts where believers initially experience the Spirit, they speak in tongues as evidence of this. In the 4th case (Samaria--Acts 8) money is offered by Peter for the power to convey the Spirit, who has not yet been received at conversion!  Why do you keep ducking Jesus' point in John 3:8?   The regenerating work of the wind of the Spirit is subject to the Spirit's discretion and is not automatically  imparted upon profession of faith. 

 

[BeauJangles]

8 hours ago, David1701 said:

Baptism in the Holy Spirit, which happens nowadays at conversion, empowers us to live a godly life.  Any specific gifts of the Holy Spirit are given at the Lord's discretion.

Thanks for clarifying your views. It sounds fine by me. 

[David1701]

6 hours ago, Deadworm said:

Not a straw man at all!  I repeat: in 3 of the 4  cases in Acts where believers initially experience the Spirit, they speak in tongues as evidence of this. In the 4th case (Samaria--Acts 8) money is offered by Peter for the power to convey the Spirit, who has not yet been received at conversion!  Why do you keep ducking Jesus' point in John 3:8?   The regenerating work of the wind of the Spirit is subject to the Spirit's discretion and is not automatically  imparted upon profession of faith. 

<sigh>

The Holy Spirit does indeed blow where he wills; but you appear to be assuming that being born again happens some time after faith in Jesus Christ.  It does not, it happens immediately before a person believes in Jesus Christ.

We see and enter the kingdom of God by faith and Jesus told Nicodemus that you (plural) MUST be born again, in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

John 3:3-8 (EMTV)

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born, being old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "The wind blows where it wills, and you hear its sound, but you do not know from where it comes and where it goes. So is everyone who has been born of the Spirit."

This is confirmed in 1 John 5:1.

1 John 5:1 (EMTV) Everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone that loves Him that begot also loves him that is begotten of Him.

Everyone who believes (present tense) that Jesus is the Christ, has been (perfect tense - happened in the past, with the result continuing in the present) born of God.  By applying this to the first moment of faith, we can see that being born again comes first.  This is the necessary change of nature that removes our hostility to God, our hatred of the light and our rejection of the things of the Spirit of God, so that we repent and believe in Jesus Christ, unto salvation.  It is a gift from God that he gives to his elect.

[BeauJangles]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

<sigh>

It's okay, Dave. 

[FaithLady61]

If you have YouTube, google The Holy Spirit  You Tube. I believe  The Holy Spirit can  find you 

[BeauJangles]

21 minutes ago, FaithLady61 said:

I believe  The Holy Spirit can  find you 

Good call, sister. The Holy Ghost can find anyone! haha! 

[Deadworm]

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

<sigh>

The Holy Spirit does indeed blow where he wills; but you appear to be assuming that being born again happens some time after faith in Jesus Christ.  It does not, it happens immediately before a person believes in Jesus Christ.

 

You keep ducking the implications of Paul's question: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you becames believers?"  He is in effect asking professed believers whether they have been born again of the Spirit.  Being born again is an experience of divine power.  Whether someone professing faith in Christ has experienced this power or is ready for it remains the Spirit's discretion. not yours.  You keep ducking 1 Corinthians 2:4-5, 4:19-20;, and Galatian 3:3-5, which refute your position.  Also, notice that Jesus will reject the born again pretensions of believers who have successfully performed miracles in His name:

"On that day many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?"  Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you.  Depart from me, you evildoers (Matthew 7:22-23)!"

Here "I never knew you" means "your professed faith in me never really made you born again."

"Test yourselves.  Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test!

 

Famed Christian writer, C. S. Lewis stresses  that he doesn't know the exact memoment when the Holy Spirit made him born again.  All he knew was that, when he was being drive to Whipsnade Zoo, he didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God, but by the time he arrived at the zoo, he did.  But he wasn't thinking about the matter during the ride.  He contemplates what may have been subtle nudges in Christ's direction that he failed to recognize prior to this.  The point is this: the process wherebv the Spirit empowered him to be born again was elusive and unknown to him.  He couldn't identify a time and place, but in retrospect he realized that the Spirit had done His work.  

[David1701]

4 hours ago, Deadworm said:

You keep ducking the implications of Paul's question: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you becames believers?"  He is in effect asking professed believers whether they have been born again of the Spirit.  Being born again is an experience of divine power.  Whether someone professing faith in Christ has experienced this power or is ready for it remains the Spirit's discretion. not yours.  You keep ducking 1 Corinthians 2:4-5, 4:19-20;, and Galatian 3:3-5, which refute your position.  Also, notice that Jesus will reject the born again pretensions of believers who have successfully performed miracles in His name:

"On that day many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?"  Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you.  Depart from me, you evildoers (Matthew 7:22-23)!"

Here "I never knew you" means "your professed faith in me never really made you born again."

"Test yourselves.  Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test!

 

Famed Christian writer, C. S. Lewis stresses  that he doesn't know the exact memoment when the Holy Spirit made him born again.  All he knew was that, when he was being drive to Whipsnade Zoo, he didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God, but by the time he arrived at the zoo, he did.  But he wasn't thinking about the matter during the ride.  He contemplates what may have been subtle nudges in Christ's direction that he failed to recognize prior to this.  The point is this: the process wherebv the Spirit empowered him to be born again was elusive and unknown to him.  He couldn't identify a time and place, but in retrospect he realized that the Spirit had done His work.  

I don't know anyone who does not know the time and place that he was born again.  It changes you dramatically and it's not only a matter of believing that Jesus is the Son of God but of godly sorrow and repentance.  It is a change of heart and a new spirit.  It can't happen to you without you knowing.

[Don19]

6 hours ago, Deadworm said:

You keep ducking the implications of Paul's question: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you becames believers?"  He is in effect asking professed believers whether they have been born again of the Spirit.  Being born again is an experience of divine power.  Whether someone professing faith in Christ has experienced this power or is ready for it remains the Spirit's discretion. not yours.  You keep ducking 1 Corinthians 2:4-5, 4:19-20;, and Galatian 3:3-5, which refute your position.  Also, notice that Jesus will reject the born again pretensions of believers who have successfully performed miracles in His name:

"On that day many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?"  Then I will declare to them, "I never knew you.  Depart from me, you evildoers (Matthew 7:22-23)!"

Here "I never knew you" means "your professed faith in me never really made you born again."

I'm not sure what to make of the notion of being "ready for it" or not. By one Spirit have we all been baptized into one Body (1 Cor 12:13). Jesus Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit (John 1:33). This is very clear - if anyone doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Rom 8:9).

And Eph 1:13-14 sets forth the earnest of the Spirit as being a result of saving faith. Gal 3:2 and 3:14 show that the gift of the Spirit is by faith. And Gal 3:13-14 is especially strong on this point: that Christ died so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Spirit is a free grace gift, given because we are sons (Gal 4:6). But being "ready" to receive the Spirit suggests some kind of merit system which is contrary to the gospel. The Spirit is for all believers. Jesus promises the Spirit for all who believe on Him (John 7:37-39) - the Spirit is for "he that believeth on me."

In John 3:8, when Jesus says, "the wind bloweth where it listeth," this is a reference to unconditional election (Eph 1:3-6, Romans 9:11-24, etc.). Needless to say, the Spirit regenerates only the elect, and He does so at conversion.

There are only two instances I'm aware of after Pentecost where it appears that believers did not receive the Spirit upon faith and water baptism (Peter's circumcision gospel - Gal 2:7) or simply faith (Paul's uncircumcision gospel - Gal 3:14): Acts 8 and Acts 19. In Acts 19, it does not appear these believers actually had salvific or gospel faith in Jesus Christ. They had only been baptized with John's baptism. And they were apparently under the preaching of Apollos, who knew only John's baptism (Acts 18:24-25), so not the saving message of Jesus's death and resurrection for our sins.

Then, the other instance, Acts 8:16. This was prior to God giving the Gentiles the Spirit through Peter's preaching, so it is definitely not normative today. And it was before Saul's conversion. Once God gave the Gentiles the Spirit in Acts 10, Peter recognized he would have no authority to forbid water immersion. But before then, recall that Jesus said He would give Peter the keys to the kingdom (not to his "successors" a power which Catholicism presumptuously appropriates for itself, making it antichrist). But here, it was time for a new phase where the kingdom would be spread to Samaria. But Peter needed to be present since he still had the keys to the kingdom at that time, because Peter was not there when they believed. And the Samaritans and Jews were enemies, so this particular instance required the witness of Peter and John, for the sake of the unity of the church, to authenticate the conversions of the Samaritans. After all, Jesus said, "ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

 

Quote

"Test yourselves.  Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless, indeed, you fail to meet the test!

A horribly misused verse. Paul in context is not truly telling the Corinthians to examine whether they're actually Christians, but defending his own ministry.

https://www.wordofhisgrace.org/wp/2_corinthians_13_5-examine-ourselves-or-not-1/

Edited July 24, 2020 by Don19

[Deadworm]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

I don't know anyone who does not know the time and place that he was born again.  It changes you dramatically and it's not only a matter of believing that Jesus is the Son of God but of godly sorrow and repentance.  It is a change of heart and a new spirit.  It can't happen to you without you knowing.

At last, I got you to unwittingly admit your heresy!  Like me, millions of evangelical Christians were raised in Christian homes and were taught to believe in Jesus as their Savior as early as they could speak!  So they can't recall a time in which they did not accept Jesus and their Savior and Lord who died for their sins.  Indeed, from its American inception, evangelical Christian education curricula have taught that, if churches educate their children properly, they should NOT recall the exact time and place when they became born again!  It is the gravest of heresies to teach that believers automatically receive the Spirit upon profession of faith.  I grew up in a mega-evangelical church.  Very few of our youth could point to a time and a place when they got born again and almost none displayed any observable spiritual transformation.  So I was not surprised during my seminary years when I learned of a research study of mega-church evangelical pastors who estimated that about 1 third of their REGULAR attenders were NOT truly born again!  Your theology encourages this dangerous false sense of entitlement.  You remind me of an altar call given by an evangelist in a local Baptist mega-church during which the visiting evangelist bellowed, "If you walk down the aisle and sincerely commit your life to Christ, you could curse God to His face when you leave this church, and you would still be born again!" 

Since you continually evade Paul's texts that imply the experience of divine power that is essential for true conversion, let me bring you to the most basis point of all.  Yes, we are saved by grace through faith.  But in both (Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") the word translated "faith" also means "faithfulness."  That is precisely why James can ask this rhetorical question, "If someone says he has faith but does not have works, can faith save him (2:14)?"

Only the Holy Spirit knows whether one's profession of faith is authentic enough to attract the regenerating work of the Spirit.  That work is an experience of transforming divine power, whose reality is often too elusive and subjective for advocates of cheap grace to rightly discern.